How to revive the Irish language.

opti0nal · 23-12-2012 8:09pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

There are numerous things various people don't like that get funding and support but you get on with it because humans have differing opinions. Something most people can deal with.

The state subsidy of Irish speaking is a much bigger thing than say, ballet or rugby. Thousands of children are subjected to compulsory lessons. Unknown costs for the OLA. Subsidies to people who live in certain places and sometimes speak Irish.

What you say, sounds like "move along, nothing to see here".

Peregrine · 23-12-2012 8:19pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

A majority that do want to "support" it, bingo. And the minority are not hurt by it being "supported", tax money is being spent on dozens of things I do not like but that is democracy in its' current form.

I had 3 chemistry teachers - what is your point? Also I do understand why you are angry about being at school and Irish and Maths are the most common subjects for you to direct your angst at. Also the majority of teachers are not on 40k, just so you know.

Also most students do it, not every student.

It's not just Chemistry, I had something like 5 choices for the Leaving Cert and I had to pick 3. There was no money given to bring in new subjects despite a demand for it. The Biology classes were full so they kicked out the messers..into Physics. Grand that makes it better doesn't it. With that poor excuse of science I'm being taught I find it remarkable they're still supporting Irish. Most of my Irish teachers are permenant and middle aged so they'd be close to €40k each

An Coilean · 23-12-2012 9:18pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A better way to deal with this would be to remove all government funding and allow taxes to drop with this. Then people would have the money to put into the language themselves in whatever way they wanted. That's real democracy.

What has your so called 'real democracy' got to do with actual Democracy? As far as I can see what you are suggesting is a liberatarian style approch, but that is economics, it has nothing to do with democracy real or otherwise.

Iwasfrozen · 23-12-2012 9:51pm

An Coilean wrote: »

What has your so called 'real democracy' got to do with actual Democracy? As far as I can see what you are suggesting is a liberatarian style approch, but that is economics, it has nothing to do with democracy real or otherwise.

Partially yes, I don't support full on libertarianism but I do with regards to cultural matters like this. As for democracy I believe it's more democratic to allow each individual person to decide what value they place on the language themselves rather then have a (supposed) majority force their views and valuations of the language on a minority.

An Coilean · 23-12-2012 9:53pm

opti0nal wrote: »

Unknown costs for the OLA.

Its not unknown. In 2011 the department of Education spent 0.002% of its anual budget on Services under the OLA, For the Dept of Finance it was 0.007%, for the department of An Taoiseach it was 0.06%, for the departmet of social protection it was 0.0006%.

Figures were given in responce to a Dáil question from John Deasy FG, for the Twelve Government Departments for which figures were available, the total amount spent on providing services in Irish could get you two whole special advisers for Enda..... well nearly.

An Coilean · 23-12-2012 10:01pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Partially yes, I don't support full on libertarianism but I do with regards to cultural matters like this. As for democracy I believe it's more democratic to allow each individual person to decide what value they place on the language themselves rather then have a (supposed) majority force their views and valuations of the language on a minority.

So in principle you believe that social democracy is undemocratic? Sorry, but this country is not governed by liberatarian principle and I think its safe to say that the vast majority of people are happy with that.

Should there ever be any protest against public money being used to support the Irish Language, then it can be looked at, but lacking that, why should the government change its policy in responce to a handfull of malcontents on a message board?

Iwasfrozen · 23-12-2012 10:07pm

An Coilean wrote: »

So in principle you believe that social democracy is undemocratic?

Never said that. I said it's less democratic.

An Coilean wrote: »

Sorry, but this country is not governed by liberatarian principle and I think its safe to say that the vast majority of people are happy with that.

Would you be against people having the right to choose how much money i spent on irish? Why is this? Can they not be trusted to spend enough? If that is the case then surely you must accept that people don't place a very high monetary valuation on the language.

An Coilean wrote: »

Should there ever be any protest against public money being used to support the Irish Language, then it can be looked at, but lacking that, why should the government change its policy in responce to a handfull of malcontents on a message board?

There never will be because the issue is not an important one. But just because the systems inefficiency doesn't feature large in people's lives doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

opti0nal · 23-12-2012 10:09pm

An Coilean wrote: »

Its not unknown. In 2011 the department of Education spent 0.002% of its anual budget on Services under the OLA, For the Dept of Finance it was 0.007%, for the department of An Taoiseach it was 0.06%, for the departmet of social protection it was 0.0006%.

How much money has been spent forcing English-speaking children to learn and speak Irish?

An Coilean · 23-12-2012 10:28pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Never said that. I said it's less democratic.

Would you be against people having the right to choose how much money i spent on irish? Why is this? Can they not be trusted to spend enough? If that is the case then surely you must accept that people don't place a very high monetary valuation on the language.

I would have no problem in principle with there being a preferendum on weather: Nothing, Less, the same or More should be spent by the state on the Irish Language, of course it would set a precident where by every inconsequential aspect of government expenditure can be judged by the population, which would of course be unconstitutional and as such would first need a referendum to allow it, but if it was part of a wider introduction of some form of direct democracy then I would not necessarily have a problem with it.

There never will be because the issue is not an important one. But just because the systems inefficiency doesn't feature large in people's lives doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

Nor does it mean that it is a problem in need of fixing.

Iwasfrozen · 23-12-2012 10:38pm

An Coilean wrote: »

I would have no problem in principle with there being a preferendum on weather: Nothing, Less, the same or More should be spent by the state on the Irish Language, of course it would set a precident where by every inconsequential aspect of government expenditure can be judged by the population, which would of course be unconstitutional and as such would first need a referendum to allow it, but if it was part of a wider introduction of some form of direct democracy then I would not necessarily have a problem with it.

All (p)referendums achieve is the imposition of the will of the majority over the minority. Let the government cut all funding for the language and lower taxes in accordance then people will have the freedom to reinvest as much of that money as they want into the language depending what value they personally place on language revival. This is the most democratic solution. Everything else is less efficient. Do you agree? If not why not?

An Coilean wrote: »

Nor does it mean that it is a problem in need of fixing.

Everything should be subject to change in case we end up stuck in inertia. If the current system is less efficient and less democratic then another system we can think of then of course it should be changed.

conor.hogan.2 · 23-12-2012 11:03pm

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

With that poor excuse of science I'm being taught I find it remarkable they're still supporting Irish. Most of my Irish teachers are permenant and middle aged so they'd be close to €40k each

Speak for your school, we had 2 good science labs in an otherwise terrible school and only 2 Irish teachers (proportional to what was needed).

opti0nal wrote: »

What you say, sounds like "move along, nothing to see here".

More like, the people have spoken. Try to change it if you think it is unfair and you have the support. Besides education, Irish is not forced on you (in Ireland, imagine).

Ficheall · 23-12-2012 11:08pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Let the government cut all funding for the language and lower taxes in accordance then people will have the freedom to reinvest as much of that money as they want into the language depending what value they personally place on language revival. This is the most democratic solution.

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

opti0nal · 23-12-2012 11:25pm

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies?

The needs of the students should be the highest priority. The basic subjects are Irish, English and arithmatic. When students leave school, they use English and arithmatic.

Compulsory Irish should be abandoned is because it offers no benefit to the Irish language itself.

The current regime serves the needs of the Irish language industry and despises the needs of students.

conor.hogan.2 · 23-12-2012 11:32pm

opti0nal wrote: »

despises the needs of students.

Yes, they cackle while doing it too.

Ficheall · 23-12-2012 11:39pm

opti0nal wrote: »

The needs of the students should be the highest priority. The basic subjects are Irish, English and arithmatic. When students leave school, they use English and arithmatic.

Compulsory Irish should be abandoned is because it offers no benefit to the Irish language itself.

The current regime serves the needs of the Irish language industry and despises the needs of students.

Their needs?
Come, now. People today seem to have no need of grammar, spelling, or even a particularly extensive vocabulary to get by.
As for "arithmetic" - simply learn how to use the calculator on your phone.

Is it your opinion that a regime which does not despise [sic.] the needs of its students, is one which minimises the actual effort they need put into learning?

Iwasfrozen · 24-12-2012 12:11am

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

Who mentioned education? I certainly didn't.

An Coilean · 24-12-2012 1:59am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

All (p)referendums achieve is the imposition of the will of the majority over the minority.

Ya, that my friend is 'real democracy'

Let the government cut all funding for the language and lower taxes in accordance then people will have the freedom to reinvest as much of that money as they want into the language depending what value they personally place on language revival. This is the most democratic solution. Everything else is less efficient. Do you agree? If not why not?

Saying it is the most democratic solution doesn't make it so, lets stop funding hospitals, reduce taxes and let people fend for them selves in the market, but wait, lets not ask anyone first because just doing it without asking is the most democratic solution.
Lets not ask anyone about doing away with funding for Irish, why, because there is a chance, a very good chance as you well know that they won't agree, and then you will have to put your hand in your pocket to pay for something you don't like and that cant be democratic can it? Well actually yes, yes it can.

Everything should be subject to change in case we end up stuck in inertia. If the current system is less efficient and less democratic then another system we can think of then of course it should be changed.

Indeed yet you have failed to convince me of the merits of your proposed system either on the grounds of efficiency or democracy.

If the majority of people want the state to support the Irish Language, the state not doing that is not more democratic, denying people their rights has never proven to be anything but very wasteful.

previous user · 24-12-2012 2:10am

Get the Irish Government to buy a Caribean Island and colonize it with Irish speakers.

belcampprisoner · 24-12-2012 2:16am

free online irish courses

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/learners/

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=free+online+languages+irish&oq=free+online+languages+irish&gs_l=serp.3...6463.14094.0.15285.16.16.0.0.0.3.382.4254.2-12j4.16.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.uWPCyqpuE10&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=2de3f31d324c2ce&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=514

opti0nal · 24-12-2012 5:54am

An Coilean wrote: »

If the majority of people want the state to support the Irish ...denying people their rights has never proven to be anything but very wasteful.

Denying the right of children to choose what language comes from their lips is harmful to the Irish language. Look at end product of decades of compulsory Irish.

You seem to care more about the process (using the power of the state to foist Irish on as many people as you can) than the product (advancing the Irish language).

opti0nal · 24-12-2012 6:00am

Ficheall wrote: »

Is it your opinion that a regime which does not despise [sic.] the needs of its students, is one which minimises the actual effort they need put into learning?

Education should equip students with the language, numeracy and cultural knowledge they need to make their way in modern Irish society.

Interest in History · 24-12-2012 9:40am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If what is best wins through then people will continue to support the language. At the moment what we have is a minority (supposedly) who do not wish to support it who are forced to do so by the state. This is not an efficient system.

Could I make a point which is not internal to this discussion but concerning the existence of the Revival itself.

Why, in the first place, do our elected officials have a programme for changing the population's language at all? Why, for ninety years, have the state's managers poured resources into such a project? Why do they persist in spite of its obvious futility. Why have the officials frittered away our resources chasing this will-o-the-wisp instead of managing the country with sensible practical measures?

And even now that our independence has been lost, the officials are still going on about it.

Curly Judge · 24-12-2012 10:13am

Interest in History wrote: »

Could I make a point which is not internal to this discussion but concerning the existence of the Revival itself.

Why, in the first place, do our elected officials have a programme for changing the population's language at all? Why, for ninety years, have the state's managers poured resources into such a project? Why do they persist in spite of its obvious futility. Why have the officials frittered away our resources chasing this will-o-the-wisp instead of managing the country with sensible practical measures?

And even now that our independence has been lost, the officials are still going on about it.

Because it's a nice little earner for a bunch of second rate teachers and civil servants.
The whole department of the Gaeltacht should be shut down.
They're just one big, useless, glorified quango!

Lord TSC · 24-12-2012 10:41am

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

In an ideal world, students (and their parents) would have the choice to pick which subjects they thought would be of the greatest use to them in the long term. Not what subjects they want but what subjects they need.

As such, people who would have no use of science would not go near it. Someone who had no intentions of pursuing a Maths based career would not waste their time on equations. People who thought English was a waste of time would be allowed dedicate their time to something they felt was more worthwhile. And people who saw no place for Irish in the future would get the option to cut it from their education.

In an ideal world, the individual would get a choice to make for themselves. How they use their choice would be up to them, but the important aspect would be they have the choice.

mikemac1 · 24-12-2012 10:45am

Do whatever the Welsh did

Bound to be a taffy on boards who can explain it

24-12-2012 11:13am

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do whatever the Welsh did

Bound to be a taffy on boards who can explain it

Referring to a Welsh person as 'taffy' might not be the best way to get the ball rolling on this one.

mackerski · 24-12-2012 11:16am

golden lane wrote: »

you mean, misquoted.....

I didn't alter your words. Perhaps quoting has a second meaning of which I am unaware.

mackerski · 24-12-2012 11:24am

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do whatever the Welsh did

Wasn't their solution to keep speaking Welsh in greater numbers than Irish people kept speaking Irish? Good plan, let's (retrospectively) do that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-12-2012 12:05pm

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

Neither French nor Business Studies is compulsory. I completley agree with you about history, even if you are being sarcastic. Wouldn´t mind seeing more art on the syllabus mysely, but that´s a personal thing.

The point is not the subjects the students "enjoy", it´s about choosing the subjects they see as relevant to them. What is the problem that people have with an education being enjoyable anyway?

Ficheall wrote: »

Their needs?
Come, now. People today seem to have no need of grammar, spelling, or even a particularly extensive vocabulary to get by.
As for "arithmetic" - simply learn how to use the calculator on your phone.

People don`t need grammar or spelling to write letters? Or even emails? Try applying for a job with poor grammar and spelling and see how far that gets you. In any case, if these are skills that are not at least attained by the onset of the leaving, their are much bigger problems than language.

opti0nal wrote: »

Education should equip students with the language, numeracy and cultural knowledge they need to make their way in modern Irish society.

FYP.

24-12-2012 2:15pm

mackerski wrote: »

Wasn't their solution to keep speaking Welsh in greater numbers than Irish people kept speaking Irish? Good plan, let's (retrospectively) do that.

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

How to revive the Irish language.

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