How to revive the Irish language.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good for them. What's your point?

Irish dancing is great. Simples, no?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never mentioned religion.

You did however mention a vision which is implicitly linked to DeValera's religion, with the whole comely maidens thing. Why don't you just rant about the grey skies of the Republic and save us a little time.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I know what I am better then you do thanks.

It would nonetheless be enlightening for everyone else to know what you are, as you and I do. You clearly feel that Irish culture is somehow repression, why would that be?

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Irish dancing is great. Simples, no?

In your opinion it is.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You did however mention a vision which is implicitly linked to DeValera's religion, with the whole comely maidens thing. Why don't you just rant about the grey skies of the Republic and save us a little time.

Unlike you and dev I don't link religion with culture.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

It would nonetheless be enlightening for everyone else to know what you are, as you and I do. You clearly feel that Irish culture is somehow repression, why would that be?

I love how you ignore the main body of my post and expect me to comment. So I'l just repeat what I said above:

"We live in a free country and in this free country you are entitled to follow what ever interests you want. I don't deny you that freedom I just don't want the government supporting cultural projects. I don't believe that is their business. "

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I love how you ignore the main body of my post and expect me to comment. So I'l just repeat what I said above:

"We live in a free country and in this free country you are entitled to follow what ever interests you want. I don't deny you that freedom I just don't want the government supporting cultural projects. I don't believe that is their business. "

Actually I was giving you a chance to come clean. Your open hatred for Ireland is clear for all to see, try to belatedly fig leaf it with libertarian rhetoric as much as you like. Really, its embarrassing at this point in its obviousness.

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Actually I was giving you a chance to come clean. Your open hatred for Ireland is clear for all to see, try to belatedly fig leaf it with libertarian rhetoric as much as you like. Really, its embarrassing at this point in its obviousness.

Actually you were trying to put words into my mouth. Now let me be as clear as I can. I do not hate Irish culture but it is not the government's place to promote it. Now I don't know how I can be any clearer then that. If you keep up your assertion that I "hate" my own culture then this convo is over because there is no talking to you.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually you were trying to put words into my mouth. Now let me be as clear as I can. I do not hate Irish culture but it is not the government's place to promote it. Now I don't know how I can be any clearer then that. If you keep up your assertion that I "hate" my own culture then this convo is over because there is no talking to you.

Welcome to the internet, on this medium anyone can read back over what you wrote and decide for themselves what your coments mean. I mean its really obvious here, Irish dacing = comely maidens, "Irish" Americans, "Riverdance was successful because it was good not because it was Irish", yet somehow Irish dancing is not good, ho boy did you pick the wrong porcupine to start an arse kicking match with.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I do not hate Irish culture but it is not the government's place to promote it.

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

No I wouldn't. I would rather the government stayed out of the issue totally.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I wouldn't. I would rather the government stayed out of the issue totally.

Your hatred for the people of Ireland is plain for all to see.

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Welcome to the internet, on this medium anyone can read back over what you wrote and decide for themselves what your coments mean.

You can decide for yourself but it doesn't mean you're right.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I mean its really obvious here, Irish dacing = comely maidens,

No I said your views = comely maidens dancing. Which you then choose to tie with religion.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

"Irish" Americans,

Yes I hate the term. An American with Irish descent is not Irish.

Doc Ruby wrote:

"Riverdance was successful because it was good not because it was Irish",

Yes.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

yet somehow Irish dancing is not good,

Yes traditional Irish is boring and robotic. That's an opinion that's different from yours. They exist ya know.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

ho boy did you pick the wrong porcupine to start an arse kicking match with.

What?

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Your hatred for the people of Ireland is plain for all to see.

That's it I'm out. Good night folks.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's it I'm out. Good night folks.

Walk on home, I'll be here. I mean for gods sake, you all but painted your politics on the wall. Gah.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I wouldn't. I would rather the government stayed out of the issue totally.

What would you call forcing Irish speakers to speak English then?

nocoverart

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Insect Overlord

nocoverart wrote: »

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Some of the poetry, prose and story-telling in Irish (no, not Peig or An t-Oileánach!) are just stunning. I include the classical material and modern publications in that, and much more besides in between. Translations don't really do them justice.

Maybe not the major, global factor you were looking for, but one worth keeping in mind all the same.

An Coilean

nocoverart wrote: »

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global or economic advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

nocoverart

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

Insect Overlord

nocoverart wrote: »

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

LOL. The Gaelic Godwin. Well played... *slow claps*

Killer Wench

I did not read the last 98 pages but I wonder how well the Rosetta Stone: Irish does in teaching people the language.

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-irish

An Coilean

nocoverart wrote: »

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

You do realize that you are demonstrably wrong about Irish being dead right?
Ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil tú ró-dall chun an difríocht idir bás agus fás a aithint?

nocoverart

An Coilean wrote: »

You do realize that you are demonstrably wrong about Irish being dead right?
Ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil tú ró-dall chun an difríocht idir bás agus fás a aithint?

It's dead, it's buried! hence the title of the thread. I'm off to my LEABA. Merry Xmas XXX

Davidius

nocoverart wrote: »

It's dead, it's buried! hence the title of the thread. I'm off to my LEABA. Merry Xmas XXX

'Revive' doesn't necessarily denote the reversal of death. To describe it as "dead" is a stretch, and "buried" is just plain false.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

On that note, and at the risk of introducing constructiveness to the bitter, I think cartoons and television are the way forward here. Look at how many people go mad for Japanese anime and immerse themselves in Japanese culture purely as a result. Our mythological cycle is fascinating and spectacular, much more so than many other cultures in my opinion, and releasing animated interpretations of these as Gaeilge or in mixed tongues could be a big step forward both at home and abroad.

I agree, and I think it's something we're sorely missing. We have a rich cultural history which seems largely untapped and the Irish language is a good tool for expressing it. I think it could do a lot for the language's popular image, more so than the tendency of creating Irish derivatives of English works.

And on that note I feel that tendency could hurt the language. I can see the use for it as a bit of craic but I also feel it can be a little degrading for the language if there's too much of it relative to the amount of original material. It paints the language as more hobby-based rather than an extant means of expression. I think it's possible to create something in the language with mass appeal without resorting to laying Irish lexicon over English language works.

Interest in History

bluecode wrote: »

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

Surely in all this debate there is only one point of dispute - whether Irish should be imposed by the state on those who don't want it?

If the value of Irish is seen as a matter of culture then, of course, those who enjoy it culturally will have no interest in imposing it on others who don't share their feelings.

If it's revival is seen as a state imperative then it has to be universally imposed - by the state. That has been tried, for ninety years. It was a bad idea in principle and has proven impossible in practice.

Solution: drop Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert and the kids and their parents will sort the matter out for themselves in the course of three or four years.

opti0nal

bluecode wrote: »

Essentially all that's needed is for ALL schools to be Irish speaking from the start. No exceptions.

You want to force people to speak Irish? That's a desperate idea. It means you acknowledge that people won't do it voluntarily. It also demonstrates a contempt for your fellow citizens and their human rights.

bluecode wrote: »

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

Nonsense, English is our native language and we speak it very well.

People who want to change our common language from English to Irish are the ones who are ashamed of our culture.

What next? Prosecuting people who don't reply to random Irish language questions in the street?

Interest in History

opti0nal wrote: »

You want to force people to speak Irish?

Long ago, Kevin Williams had an article (in Studies - Summer 1989) about Irish on the curriculum, including the question of Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert. In the article he pointed to the fundamental fact that there is a limit to what anyone can be made to do against his or her will even by the use of force or the threat of penalties.

Of course, people pretend to go along with those in power, if that is needed for getting what they need. In this case, points in the exam. And when the power goes, the Irish goes.

Williams points out that the undifferentiated compelling of students to learn something is a manipulative relationship which is at odds with the spirit of engagement of young people with a language as an end in itself and as something valuable on its own account.

The strange thing is: everybody knows all this.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Doc Ruby wrote: »

English is what we speak. Irish is who we are. But hey if you're happy enough to miss out on the massive financial opportunities offered by the culture, that's your call. Michael Flatley says "lol".

Very true. You seem to take the point what what one is and what one sepaks are two seperate entities, however...

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Interesting. So an Irish dancing show featuring nothing but Irish dancing was successful not because it was Irish.

Why do you hate Ireland?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Your hatred for the people of Ireland is plain for all to see.

... you seem to have gone back on yourself here, assuming to hate the language (Irish) is the same as hating one`s self and country (Ireland)...??

Either we can be Irish without speaking Irish and like one but not the other, or the whole thing is tied together: hate the langauge, hate the country.

Which is it?

bluecode wrote: »

We could have virtually everyone speaking Irish in less than a generation. Right now there a few Irish speaking schools. My son started in one last year. He's five and it's remarkable to hear him having a conversation with his Mother in Irish. Not me, when I try he just corrects my pronunciaton.

Essentially all that's needed is for ALL schools to be Irish speaking from the start. No exceptions.

There are several superb Irish speaking schools. Simply using the techniques they use and this debate would be over or at least it would be continued in Irish.

It'll never happen of course. We Irish seemed ashamed of our language and certainly the way it was taught made sure most people hated it.

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

You COULD have. However, an entire genration does not WANT to. So you`d either have to force it on people or accept that, while it`s possible, it would be a massive infringement on other people`s freedoms. It`s not shame, it`s not embarrassment, it`s just disinterest and a difference in priorities which again, people are free to do.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

The elephant in the room is that ninety years of promotion of Irish by the state has been a botch.

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Why is this meme constantly trotted out? And as an aside why is the meme always concentrated on the Scandinavian nations? Proves it's a meme I suppose. Anther one is "whataboutIsraelandHebrew". Anyway the obvious difference is that all Finns[insert other Scandinavians here] speak Finnish[insert other Scandinavian languages here]. The majority of Irish people do not speak Irish. Whatever about the promotion of the language, there is a difference between the examples.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

Written by a lecturer in Irish, so no possible slant/turkeys won't vote for Xmas going on?

EDIT I'd add the other very common meme "Irish is a dead language". Eh no. It's not.

gobnaitolunacy

An Coilean wrote: »

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

That might actually revive it. Irish people being awkward in the face of officialdom as per usual:D

Interest in History

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

......You COULD have. However, an entire genration does not WANT to. So you`d either have to force it on people or accept that, while it`s possible, it would be a massive infringement on other people`s freedoms...

Two points in response:

(1) No! The political elite for fifty years after 1922 tried with everything they had to force Irish on the population. And they failed. Compared to then, to-day's Revival is just throwing shapes. Now more people are paid to speak Irish than are forced to speak it.

(2) The elite did not care about the infringement of other people's freedoms in the context of their plan.

9959

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

That might actually revive it. Irish people being awkward in the face of officialdom as per usual:D

Off topic I know, but if only the above were true, just look at how we faced down officialdom regarding austerity and bank bailouts.
We Irish are awkward alright, awkward when it comes to being assertive.
Sorry for the mini-rant.

Back on topic.
There's as much chance of a genuine Irish language revival as there is of a Bay City Rollers revival.

"Chimmy-Cherry-Some, we used to make up songs, agus Remember
Sha-La-La-La-Loo, I used to sing to you, Remember an bhuil cead agam"

......or something.