How to revive the Irish language.

Peregrine · 22-12-2012 07:24PM

Wibbs wrote: »

EDIT I'd add the other very common meme "Irish is a dead language". Eh no. It's not.

No it's not a dead language at the moment but it's a dying language and you can thank years of neglect by governments for that.

Department of Education and Skills: Proudly shoving Irish down your throat for 14 years whether you like it or not and calling it revival for almost 100 years

You know you've got a problem with the system when students in normal schools who no little or no Irish at all have to sit the same exam as students in Gaelcholáistes who has been speaking Irish and English for majority of their lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-12-2012 07:36PM

Interest in History wrote: »

Two points in response:

(1) No! The political elite for fifty years after 1922 tried with everything they had to force Irish on the population. And they failed. Compared to then, to-day's Revival is just throwing shapes. Now more people are paid to speak Irish than are forced to speak it.

(2) The elite did not care about the infringement of other people's freedoms in the context of their plan.

Yeah, I know, but my point was that the poster I was replying to was completly ignoring the will of the people. Governments, while keeping Irish mandatory, never forced it on free adults.

golden lane · 22-12-2012 07:40PM

a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......

when they learn a language it is just copying what their parents an people around them say......

they can learn two languages as easy as one.....and for young children, it can even be fun....

they do not have to learn the whole language......just enough to learn the different sounds and emphasis.....

so, you just have to get the parents to introduce words into everyday conversation from birth.....they can learn that two different woeds mean the same thing.....

when the go to kindergarden etc....then the can learn more from fluent teachers....

they will the go home and introduce those words to their parents....

so, rather that trying to teach an english speaking generation a whole language.....they just need to learn a few words.....and use them frequently, and lovingly......

the learning process that then takes place between parents and children will bring about a love of the language.....

opti0nal · 22-12-2012 07:51PM

golden lane wrote: »

a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......so, you just have to get the parents to introduce words into everyday conversation from birth.....they can learn that two different woeds mean the same thing.....

Should parents be compelled by law to teach their children Irish?

golden lane · 22-12-2012 07:59PM

opti0nal wrote: »

Should parents be compelled by law to teach their children Irish?

no, and neither should children.....

a young child has a longing and a love for words....parents have also a love for childrens love of words.....

young children will not know it is two languages (and have no reason to reject one in favour of the other).....

binging it into a childs life later.......defines the choice they make.....

the object it to make the whole of the country bi-lingual....not to replace one with the other...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-12-2012 08:11PM

golden lane wrote: »

binging it into a childs life later.......defines the choice they make.....

the object it to make the whole of the country bi-lingual....not to replace one with the other...

Have to disagree here - it`s not the time it`s brought into the child´s life, it`s the fashion in which it´s brought into a child´s life.

The country will never be blungual, there simply is not the will. It´s not really practical either.

dd972 · 22-12-2012 08:18PM

I've always respected the way the Welsh have kept their language living and functional in a way we haven't, there must be some cultural or social reasons for that.

golden lane · 22-12-2012 08:26PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Have to disagree here - it`s not the time it`s brought into the child´s life, it`s the fashion in which it´s brought into a child´s life.

The country will never be blungual, there simply is not the will. It´s not really practical either.

i believe there will be the will......not by forcing, but by wanting.....

out there i believe is a majority of parents who would be so proud to hear their children speak both languages......

An Coilean · 22-12-2012 08:35PM

dd972 wrote: »

I've always respected the way the Welsh have kept their language living and functional in a way we haven't, there must be some cultural or social reasons for that.

Hundreds of Welsh Language Activists willing to go to jail to secure their rights.

opti0nal · 22-12-2012 09:09PM

golden lane wrote: »

i believe there will be the will......not by forcing, but by wanting.....out there i believe is a majority of parents who would be so proud to hear their children speak both languages......

You can believe whatever fantasy you want, but the reality is that the majority of parents are quite content to hear their children speak English and this language serves them well.

Unfortunately, people with fantasies about the Main Aim and 'bilingualism' (but only if one language is Irish) have access to our money and our children.

BrokenArrows · 22-12-2012 09:16PM

You can't revive a language that doesn't serve a purpose.

Wibbs · 22-12-2012 09:22PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Hundreds of Welsh Language Activists willing to go to jail to secure their rights.

Yea and more grass roots support among the Welsh in general. Support that is lacking with the Irish in general. Beyond lip service anyway. As I've noted before this general lack of support/interest also shows in the diaspora that left the country from the 18th through 19th centuries. A goodly proportion of them, if not the majority would have come from Irish speaking areas, yet within a generation at most two the usage of the language pointedly declines. Certainly when compared to other cultures diasporas(one notable is or was Newfoundland Irish which did persist). The Irish are the second largest diaspora in the US, yet the language comes in around 75th in usage today. That rapid dropping of the cupla focal is repeated in all the other places we went and is mirrored even in Ireland since independence even with all the state support.

That said I have no doubts it will survive and thrive as a minority language of our country. Something many on both sides of the argument seem to worry about. The naysayers have already held the funeral service and the Gaelgoirs often suggest it's extinction if state support is withdrawn, even reduced. I don't.

Wibbs · 22-12-2012 09:27PM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

You can't revive a language that doesn't serve a purpose.

Of course it serves a purpose. Ask any native speaker, or those attempting to learn it. However the question I ask is does it serve a wider purpose for those who aren't speakers of the language?

golden lane · 22-12-2012 09:28PM

opti0nal wrote: »

You can believe whatever fantasy you want, but the reality is that the majority of parents are quite content to hear their children speak English and this language serves them well.

Unfortunately, people with fantasies about the Main Aim and 'bilingualism' (but only if one language is Irish) have access to our money and our children.

yes, as you can also.......i have desire or wish for the irish people to speak irish......it is their choice to do as they wish......

i am suggesting a way it can be done.....and i believe there are enough irish people who would wish to do it.....i have spent 56 years living outside ireland and have no plans to return.....

i have not mentioned money.....because it shoud not enter into the matter...

Interest in History · 22-12-2012 09:29PM

golden lane wrote: »

....a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......when they learn a language it is just copying what their parents an people around them say...they can learn two languages as easy as one.....and for young children, it can even be fun....they will the go home and introduce those words to their parents.........

There is a basic problem here. All the people involved are native born English speakers. They don't know Irish beyond baby-talk themselves. So apart from the fact that the exercise described is not needed for a happy or a useful life and apart from the fact that there is no motivation for it - IT IS NOT POSSIBLE!

conor.hogan.2 · 22-12-2012 09:33PM

Does anyone know of a language that has been called "dead" more times than Irish?
Or a language which has then been called "dying" when people are corrected on it not being dead?

Surely it is one of the longest living "dying"/"dead" languages.

golden lane · 22-12-2012 09:33PM

Interest in History wrote: »

There is a basic problem here. All the people involved are native born English speakers. They don't know Irish beyond baby-talk themselves. So apart from the fact that the exercise described is not needed for a happy or a useful life and apart from the fact that there is no motivation for it - IT IS NOT POSSIBLE!

it is a language.......not an engineering degree.....

all children learn a language, it is a doddle for them to do it.....to learn two, is not rocket science to them....it comes natural .......

Interest in History · 22-12-2012 09:34PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Governments, while keeping Irish mandatory, never forced it on free adults.

In the bad old days they did force it on (otherwise) free adults. For example, anybody going for state employment of any type. Or if they were young adults needing a Leaving Certificate.

But I admit that apart from that the main weight was (and is) laid on the schoolchildren. And some of that is being lifted by Ruairi Quinn.

Interest in History · 22-12-2012 09:38PM

golden lane wrote: »

it is a language.......not an engineering degree.....all children learn a language, it is a doddle for them to do it.....to learn two, is not rocket science to them....it comes natural .......

But they have to learn a language from from somebody who knows it. The Irish are all native born English speakers. It is the babies' mother tongue. It can't be otherwise because the mothers speak English and don't speak Irish.

golden lane · 22-12-2012 09:47PM

Interest in History wrote: »

But they have to learn a language from from somebody who knows it. The Irish are all native born English speakers. It is the babies' mother tongue. It can't be otherwise because the mothers speak English and don't speak Irish.

after 50 odd years of exile....i still remember many words of irish.....

i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....then it would be a tit for tat endevour.....

children are not born with a hatred for language....they have the built in means to learn it...and a great love for it....

opti0nal · 22-12-2012 09:54PM

golden lane wrote: »

i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....

You have not explained how the majority population of this country who don't want to speak Irish would decide to do what you wish.

There is a reason why we don't all speak Irish: We don't want to.

Interest in History · 22-12-2012 10:05PM

golden lane wrote: »

after 50 odd years of exile....i still remember many words of irish.....i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....then it would be a tit for tat endevour.....children are not born with a hatred for language....they have the built in means to learn it...and a great love for it....

People here who are enthusiastic about the Revival of Irish sometimes blame the government for its failure. But over the course of the ninety years since 1922 tremendous efforts were made by various governments, and at great cost too.

Adrian Kelly has a book called "Compulsory Irish, language and Education in Ireland 1870s-1970s," which tells the history of those efforts.

Also there is "The Revival of Irish - Failed project of a Political Elite" by Donal Flynn. This is available on Kindle.

And there is a website with some other documents: <sites/google.com/site/failedrevival>

And putting the Revival in a broad context - Tom Garvin's "Preventing the Future".

mackerski · 22-12-2012 10:09PM

golden lane wrote: »

it comes natural .......

Doesn't to you, apparently

golden lane · 22-12-2012 10:19PM

mackerski wrote: »

Doesn't to you, apparently

it was not taught to me as i descibe a method for teaching it....if it was i may have learned how to speak it fluently....

i spent a lot of my childhood in the uk.....and all of my life since i was 15....

i had no reason to be interested in learning the irish language..i knew i was off as soon as i was old enough.....yes, never to return except for a couple of funerals....
so can you add any positive or otherwise comments to my post's or are you too busy concentrating on me.....

mackerski · 22-12-2012 10:26PM

golden lane wrote: »

it was not taught to me

It's your English I quoted. My point being that many people struggle to perfect one language, let alone two.

Bilingualism is a great thing and I'm all for it, but each of the languages has to come from somewhere. Parents who cannot speak Irish cannot teach it to children, which is why nature takes its course and most of us are native English speakers. This is just a thing that happens with languages. We don't pine for whatever language the fir bolg spoke, likewise there's no reason to agonise over Irish as the native language we never had. That's just glass half empty thinking.

Peregrine · 22-12-2012 10:48PM

Interest in History wrote: »

People here who are enthusiastic about the Revival of Irish sometimes blame the government for its failure. But over the course of the ninety years since 1922 tremendous efforts were made by various governments, and at great cost too.

Well it didn't work now did it..

None of them included trying to teach Irish to kids like a foreign language cos if it did kids now wouldn't know more French/Spanish/German than Irish. The Irish Leaving Cert syllabus expects that you're a fluent Irish speaker and has questions like character development, themes, emotions etc. in poems and stories, essays on politics, these are questions that people struggle with in English exams. Even things like the health system which students don't even know in English let alone Irish!

And the teachers' response to this?
Learn it all off

Is this the efforts they made? Cos they're blind sided about the students' response

conor.hogan.2 · 22-12-2012 10:50PM

mackerski wrote: »

Bilingualism is a great thing and I'm all for it, but each of the languages has to come from somewhere.

That's just glass half empty thinking.

Yep, it is great. Also we don't cry over spilled milk, we just refill the glass and get on with it. If you don't then, you don't have to acknowledge it unless you are in school.

Iwasfrozen · 22-12-2012 10:55PM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Does anyone know of a language that has been called "dead" more times than Irish?
Or a language which has then been called "dying" when people are corrected on it not being dead?

Surely it is one of the longest living "dying"/"dead" languages.

I prefer "Brain Dead" language. As in it would be dead if government life support was pulled.

opti0nal · 22-12-2012 11:14PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I prefer "Brain Dead" language. As in it would be dead if government life support was pulled.

I don't agree.

Irish is alive but living inside a web of deceit and lies.

Reducing government support to a level appropriate to an important cultural relic, and more importantly, freeing children from the abusive obligation to learn and speak Irish would allow the Irish language and its supporters to operate in an environment of honesty and truthfulness.

Iwasfrozen · 22-12-2012 11:21PM

opti0nal wrote: »

I don't agree.

Irish is alive but living inside a web of deceit and lies.

Reducing government support to a level appropriate to an important cultural relic, and more importantly, freeing children from the abusive obligation to learn and speak Irish would allow the Irish language and its supporters to operate in an environment of honesty and truthfulness.

Do you think so? I could buy into that. Honestly I don't care if it dies or becomes the majority language again as long as the government doesn't spend public money promoting it.

How to revive the Irish language.

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