How to revive the Irish language.

Interest in History

Deleted User wrote: »

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

I'll acceot what you say, just for the sake of argument.

And if this is so, why do the 166 public representatives (Note - "representatives") in Kildare Street not accept the people's point of
view?

This is not a rhetorical question. If it is not answered accurately then any givernment plan will be in conflict with people's wishes and it will fail. As before.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

I dunno DB, I think outside a minority hate is too strong a word. I think more than anything we're indifferent about the language as a cultural marker. We, I mean the majority, don't feel it defines us as a people(compared to the Welsh say). Most wouldn't like to see it die out either so we end up with a schizo approach to the whole subject.

Lord TSC

I'd agree hate is too strong a word as well.

Maybe hate it when in school, when teens "hate" everything. But I think once you leave school, the majority become apathetic to it, realizing that life is in no way affected by not having it as a language...

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, that my friend is 'real democracy'

Saying it is the most democratic solution doesn't make it so, lets stop funding hospitals, reduce taxes and let people fend for them selves in the market, but wait, lets not ask anyone first because just doing it without asking is the most democratic solution.
Lets not ask anyone about doing away with funding for Irish, why, because there is a chance, a very good chance as you well know that they won't agree, and then you will have to put your hand in your pocket to pay for something you don't like and that cant be democratic can it? Well actually yes, yes it can.

Indeed yet you have failed to convince me of the merits of your proposed system either on the grounds of efficiency or democracy.

If the majority of people want the state to support the Irish Language, the state not doing that is not more democratic, denying people their rights has never proven to be anything but very wasteful.

So why is a system where the (supposed) majority force the (supposed) minority to pay for the up keep of the language the most fair and efficient system? Why is a system where the language gets more money then it should based on the collective valuations of the population better then one where the language will receive exactly what it is valued at?

No one is denying anyone their right to speak rish amongst themselves, what you do in your own time is none of the states concern but neither should another person be forced to spend their hard earned money up keeping your hobby.

opti0nal

Deleted User wrote: »

rish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

This is so untrue and if this is what is believed by the Irish language lobby, it goes some way to explain their beligerant attitude towards their fellow citizens and why they have failed to promote Irish using largely coercive policies.

Firstly, Irish people do not hate their language. Our language is English. We speak it very well and Our English-language literature is well regarded internationally.

Surveys produced by the Irish lobby show a lot of goodwill for Irish speaking.

But, we prefer to speak English in our daily lives. It's about time the Irish lobby stopped using shaming tactics, they are counter-productive.

9959

Deleted User wrote: »

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

The above has to be wrong in at least three different ways.

1. As stated by 'Opti0nal' the vast majority of people in this country do not regard 'Gaelige' as their language but would regard it as the language of teachers, politicians and officialdom.

2. 'Hate' is definitely the wrong word to use, 'indifferent' would be more apposite.

3. In order to have "learned to hate" something, one would have had to be taught to hate, who are these teachers of hate and why are they spending their valuable time instillng hatred on a topic which might sometimes irk them but never threatens or causes any major disruption to their daily lives.

By the way, on another thread you posted a appropriately funny music video in response to one of my posts, I really can't remember the song but I do remember laughing, these things are important, so thanks for that.

Merry Christmas dolanbaker, I may disagree with you from time to time, but I think you're a good egg.

Good Luck.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno DB, I think outside a minority hate is too strong a word. I think more than anything we're indifferent about the language as a cultural marker. We, I mean the majority, don't feel it defines us as a people(compared to the Welsh say). Most wouldn't like to see it die out either so we end up with a schizo approach to the whole subject.

Fair comment, more indifference or disdain than real hatred, when I tell people that I'm learning Irish, the usual response is "OH" followed by a bit of confusion "what the hell do you want to learn that for!". Most Irish people leave the language at the school gate, unlike the Welsh many of whom will speak it at home, work and in the pub (I lived in Wales for a year).

But anyway Nollaig Shona to one and all

jacktraynor

In my opinion what we should do is all new kids coming into the education system will do all subjects through Irish, so in about 14 years every child in the education system learns through Irish and has done since junior infants. Then start huge taxes on signs,leaflets, advertisements that are in English and very little taxes for them in Irish.

mackerski

jacktraynor wrote: »

In my opinion what we should do is all new kids coming into the education system will do all subjects through Irish, so in about 14 years every child in the education system learns through Irish and has done since junior infants. Then start huge taxes on signs,leaflets, advertisements that are in English and very little taxes for them in Irish.

Why should "we" do such a thing? "We" speak English and are happy to do so. And since "we" live in a democracy "we" won't be adopting any such strategy.

The_Gatsby

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

You actually are though

Curly Judge

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair comment, more indifference or disdain than real hatred, when I tell people that I'm learning Irish, the usual response is "OH" followed by a bit of confusion "what the hell do you want to learn that for!". Most Irish people leave the language at the school gate, unlike the Welsh many of whom will speak it at home, work and in the pub (I lived in Wales for a year).

But anyway Nollaig Shona to one and all

Only in north Wales.
The people of south Wales are a bit like ourselves as far as proficiency in their native language goes

pjproby

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

mackerski

Curly Judge wrote: »

The people of south Wales are a bit like ourselves as far as proficiency in their native language goes

I don't think "native language" means what you think it does.

An Coilean

pjproby wrote: »

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

The layout of the ballot was not the fault of their being two languages on it. It is not beyond the realms of human inginuity to design an easy to understand ballot with more than one language on it.

Curly Judge

pjproby wrote: »

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

On an aside: the people who designed the referendum paper - and those who signed off on it - should be shot with a ball of goatshyte.

pjproby

The point is that only 100,000 people or less claim to speak the language on a daily basis yet the Irish version of the question was put on an equal footing with the English version. In fact the Irish version was at the top of the paper.
The question posed-re the Senate was very badly worded. Pretending that we are all fluent Irish speakers is simply nonsense.

pjproby

pjproby wrote: »

The point is that only 100,000 people or less claim to speak the language on a daily basis yet the Irish version of the question was put on an equal footing with the English version. In fact the Irish version was at the top of the paper.
The question posed-re the Senate was very badly worded. Pretending that we are all fluent Irish speakers is simply nonsense.

No one is pretending that at all, it is simply giving equal footing to both languages.
There are many countries that have more than one official language! Canada being a classic example & Belgium, (parts of) Wales & Scotland have a similar "second language" issue as Ireland.

I could add in to this the USA as Spanish has become the second language in many parts and there is now a requirement to have Spanish signs & literature available as many of the Hispanic community don't bother to learn English.

LordSutch

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english! So it seems to me like the speaking of Irish is confined to the classroom?

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that always strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english too! So it seems to me like the Irish is confined to the classroom only.

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

Kids are smart, they use the language they need to use to communicate.
If a child has parents from different language backgrounds they'll speak the relevant language when they see the grandparents.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

The layout of the ballot was not the fault of their being two languages on it. It is not beyond the realms of human inginuity to design an easy to understand ballot with more than one language on it.

Amen to that.

The bad layout of the ballot paper was due lack of skill and care. It was just one instance among many of the technically poor adminsitration of the country.

The featuring of the Irish version is pure politics. An extension of the need of the politicians to justify themselves through something abstract and lofty. It's an understandable need, given that they have made such a bags of the ordinary tasks of running a little country.

Interest in History

LordSutch wrote: »

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english! So it seems to me like the speaking of Irish is confined to the classroom?

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

The Foras Pátrúnachta, the patron body for the Irish-medium schools, has said that 96% of their schoolchildren come from English-speaking families. And as is well recorded, those families remain English-speaking. How could it be otherwise?

LordSutch

Interest in History wrote: »

The Foras Pátrúnachta, the patron body for the Irish-medium schools, has said that 96% of their schoolchildren come from English-speaking families. And as is well recorded, those families remain English-speaking. How could it be otherwise?

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

It reverts back to the ultimate question: is Irish something they do at school or something more sigificant to the kids thant that?

roughneck

latin was the language of millions of people for a hell of a long time ,if its no good to people its dead .get over it ,a language is for speaking with everybody not a select few ,so are you special that you can speak a dead dialect that didnt even come from this island ?

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

It's really down to those parents to (re)learn/use Irish outside the school as well for there to be any real point in having their children taught in a different language to the one used outside the school.


Otherwise Irish is just the "school" language.

Interest in History

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

Sure! I only meant to underpin your observation

Interest in History

Deleted User wrote: »

It's really down to those parents to (re)learn/use Irish outside the school as well for there to be any real point in having their children taught in a different language to the one used outside the school. Otherwise Irish is just the "school" language.

Their real point in Irish-medium schooling is that the people who choose it like it and are confident that it benefits their children. And choice is good. Nobody claims it results, or needs to result, in a change in a family's vernacular let alone the general population's vernacular.

It would also be good if the rest of the school population were allowed to choose whether or not to study Irish in the Leaving Cert. Fine Gael favours that but the Labour Party blocked it. Presumably the teachers' unions got at them.

podgeandrodge

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

Spring Onion

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

For some odd reason, people painted over the English names on the road signs leaving Galway on the N59 (Clifden road). The signs originally had both Irish and English placenames (Barna, Oughterard, Moycullen etc) and they looked perfect. Now they kinda looked defaced because the colour green used to paint over the English names is darker.

Who would do that? Why? Personally I think this only pushes people further away from the Irish language. It makes people too aware of the Irish language Nazis that ruin it for both sides.

An Coilean

Spring Onion wrote: »

For some odd reason, people painted over the English names on the road signs leaving Galway on the N59 (Clifden road). The signs originally had both Irish and English placenames (Barna, Oughterard, Moycullen etc) and they looked perfect. Now they kinda looked defaced because the colour green used to paint over the English names is darker.

Who would do that? Why? Personally I think this only pushes people further away from the Irish language. It makes people too aware of the Irish language Nazis that ruin it for both sides.

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.