How to revive the Irish language.

An Coilean

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

:eek: You mean some clown was actually mad enough to think that it was in any way acceptable to acnowledge that the English placename is not the only placename on a map?

Shocking, I hope you write a strongly worded letter, when you have had sufficient time to recover from this shock of course.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

Interesting. What did the Langauge Equality Commissioner do about it? (I'm guessing SFA.)

Iwasfrozen

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Interesting. What did the Langauge Equality Commissioner do about it? (I'm guessing SFA.)

Silly Princess, language equality only goes one way!

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

Muttoner O'Cuiv, I believe?
Gauleiter in Chief of Irish language fascism.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Silly Princess, language equality only goes one way!

I did make an eduacated guess, in fairness, but I'dd like to hear what the response is if you pretend that it's perfectly acceptable to refuse an order from a guard or ignore a court summons because it's not in two languages, but a roadsign may exist in just one.

feargale

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:
All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.
Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years. C
If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.
Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.
Tfhis may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.
I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

Building the new prisons should kick-start the construction industry. On the other hand, the cost of imprisoning 50% or so of the Irish people might render capital punishment more practical. Oh wait, how about labour camps working them to death? What's Irish for Auschwicz? Of course the prison wardens would need to be proficient in English, and having broken their liathroidi agus toin to become fluent in Irish and thus avoid jail, deportation etc. their English might well have become rusty. Would you be setting the exam yourself?
Alternative: As suggested years ago, publish all pornography in Irish and ban same in English - a more fun way of achieving the same objective.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

It's always well to remember that 'Done by the State' is shorthand for 'Done by an Interest Group using State power'.

The state policy has nothing to do with the will of the people. It contains three main elements; the needs of Oireachtas members for accreditation as patriots; the interest that a small group of people have in the Gaelic language; and the interest of a very large group of people the state-funded rackets that result from the needs of the aforementioned clowns in the Oireachtas.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

I don't remember voting for that?

mackerski

An Coilean wrote: »

:eek: You mean some clown was actually mad enough to think that it was in any way acceptable to acnowledge that the English placename is not the only placename on a map?

Shocking, I hope you write a strongly worded letter, when you have had sufficient time to recover from this shock of course.

One of the useful things about digital maps is the possibility to optimise the map for the user. Many (most?) map users would like to see one single name for each feature in the language that suits him or her. Anything more is clutter.

So the "right" solution to this balancing act is to allow the user to choose a language.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

It will be interesting to see under the latest Gaeltacht Act what areas of the old official Gaeltacht territory are proven to be Irish-speaking in reality.

Certainly O Cuív has left his mark on the Revival of Irish project. It shows what a man of conviction can accomplish. At the time the Official Languages Act received the unanimous support of every party and every member of the Oireachtas. And to-day they all top and tail their Dail contributions with the cúpla foccal. Take it as a assertion of their patriotism if you like it. Take it as Disneyland play-acting if you don't.

Interest in History

mackerski wrote: »

One of the useful things about digital maps is the possibility to optimise the map for the user. Many (most?) map users would like to see one single name for each feature in the language that suits him or her. Anything more is clutter.

So the "right" solution to this balancing act is to allow the user to choose a language.

OMG! Next you'll be suggesting that students should be allowed to choose whether or not to study Irish for the Leaving Certificate.

Spring Onion

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

But it was only done in the past 2-3 years. These are fairly new signs (no more than 5 years old) and the messy "update" was done after that. To be fair to the council, it does not look very professional i.e. looks like it was done in a hurry.

Interest in History

Spring Onion wrote: »

But it was only done in the past 2-3 years. These are fairly new signs (no more than 5 years old) and the messy "update" was done after that. To be fair to the council, it does not look very professional i.e. looks like it was done in a hurry.

The state officials have to respond to the law and this law reflects the Revivalist project, itself the property of a set of officials. All that the population can do is to continue as always to speak English. Which they will.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country.

No for two reasons, firstly the placenames order relates to Gaeltacht areas only, secondaly there is no renaming, just dropping the English transliteration.

An Coilean

Curly Judge wrote: »

I don't remember voting for that?

Were you a TD in 2003? If not then there is your problem.

An Coilean

Spring Onion wrote: »

But it was only done in the past 2-3 years. These are fairly new signs (no more than 5 years old) and the messy "update" was done after that. To be fair to the council, it does not look very professional i.e. looks like it was done in a hurry.

I am not familiar with the specific case, its possible that you are just wrong, or that the council did not get around to changing them until some years later, or that they put up signs with the obsolete English language placename by mistake a few years ago and had to correct them.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

No for two reasons, firstly the placenames order relates to Gaeltacht areas only, secondaly there is no renaming, just dropping the English transliteration.

In some cases there is "re-naming" in the sense that the historic name in Irish is simply different to the name that people gave the place in English. So, not actually re-naming, I guess. rather: using its other name.

The phonetics of the name in Gaelic will default to those of whatever language is in use in the community of course. And the public will become used to the spelling, even if at first it looks odd. As for example with Dún Laoghaire which all natives pronounce 'dunnleery', in spite of RTE's best effort to promote the gaelic phonetics of 'Dún Laoghaire'.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not familiar with the specific case, its possible that you are just wrong, or that the council did not get around to changing them until some years later, or that they put up signs with the obsolete English language placename by mistake a few years ago and had to correct them.

Says it all really.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

Were you a TD in 2003? If not then there is your problem.

True, but then again, neither were you.
Yet your agenda seems to have been adopted rather than mine.
How would you like the whole thing to be put to a referendum?

Interest in History

Curly Judge wrote: »

Muttoner O'Cuiv, I believe?
Gauleiter in Chief of Irish language fascism.

Every single party in the Oireachtas voted for the Official languages Act without even one singe Deputy dissenting.

I'd say that most of them did this in the belief that it was just another bit of their well practiced Cúpla Foccal play-acting. But the fact is that Eamonn O Cuív did not act alone by any stretch and whatever else he is accused of he should not be accused of acting as a dictator.

Interest in History

Curly Judge wrote: »

True, but then again, neither were you.
Yet your agenda seems to have been adopted rather than mine.
How would you like the whole thing to be put to a referendum?

The Revivalists would win a referendum, being deeply committed and well resourced. Anyway, it's irrelevent. The population carries out its own linguistic referendum daily - we vote to speak English.

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

In some cases there is "re-naming" in the sense that the historic name in Irish is simply different to the name that people gave the place in English. So, not actually re-naming, I guess. rather: using its other name.

The phonetics of the name in Gaelic will default to those of whatever language is in use in the community of course. And the public will become used to the spelling, even if at first it looks odd. As for example with Dún Laoghaire which all natives pronounce 'dunnleery', in spite of RTE's best effort to promote the gaelic phonetics of 'Dún Laoghaire'.

There are actually not to many examples of this happening, Dún Laoghaire is one, but then there is a difference between a community learning a newley imposed placename and knowing a pre-existing one.
It should be noted that there are examples of the reverse as well, for example Botharbue in Cork is not pronounced as Botharbue but rather as Botharbuee which is identical to the prononciation of Irish language placename.

I have come accross it suggested before that it is a natural and inevitable process that Irish language placenames will be anglacised by the English speaking community. Specifically with new housing developments that are named in Irish, it is supposidly pointless to name them in Irish as they will just become anglacised anyway. With the implication being that this is what happened to all the other placenames in the country aswell.

This is not true however, almost all English language placenames came about as a result of imposition by the British administration rather than as some kind of 'natural' process whereby communities that became English speaking found that the old Irish placename no longer fit and so they anglacised it themselves.

An Coilean

Curly Judge wrote: »

True, but then again, neither were you.
Yet your agenda seems to have been adopted rather than mine.
How would you like the whole thing to be put to a referendum?

Somehow I don't think that I personally agree with it had much impact on their decision to adopt it at the time.

I would welcome a referendum on the issue, but I doubt many on your side of the argument would in reality.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

I wonder how much it all matters - what the actual yield is in terms of the nation's welfare. The period of anglicisation is a long way back if we place it before 1922. The term to-day can only apply to the functional choice of English made by a free people which presumably will continue on its historic track.

LordSutch

Interest in History wrote: »

OMG! Next you'll be suggesting that students should be allowed to choose whether or not to study Irish for the Leaving Certificate.

Now that would be a very sensible move although I doubt if would ever happen. Many students would love the choice to put 100% study time into one other language, be it French, German, Spanish, or whatever. Keeping Irish as a core subject in the Leaving Cert is very limiting and a distraction to many (IMO). That's not to say that Irish should be dropped (far from it), its just that it might be taken up and studied by more discerning students if it wasn't soooo stubbornly mandatory. Make Irish optional in the LC I say, and give it extra points (as a sweetner) to encourage LC students to adopt it as their 2nd language, instead of French etc.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

There are actually not to many examples of this happening, Dún Laoghaire is one, but then there is a difference between a community learning a newley imposed placename and knowing a pre-existing one.
It should be noted that there are examples of the reverse as well, for example Botharbue in Cork is not pronounced as Botharbue but rather as Botharbuee which is identical to the prononciation of Irish language placename.

I have come accross it suggested before that it is a natural and inevitable process that Irish language placenames will be anglacised by the English speaking community. Specifically with new housing developments that are named in Irish, it is supposidly pointless to name them in Irish as they will just become anglacised anyway. With the implication being that this is what happened to all the other placenames in the country aswell.

This is not true however, almost all English language placenames came about as a result of imposition by the British administration rather than as some kind of 'natural' process whereby communities that became English speaking found that the old Irish placename no longer fit and so they anglacised it themselves.

yes: in The Names of Irish Places' Joyce counsels close attention at all time to the colloguial pronunciation of place names.

I don't think it matters much what a new housing estate is called although the Irish-ised inventions at least spare us 'Tudor Mansions' and 'Windsor Grove'. "Cloch and Charraigh" will soon become "Clockacarry" anyway.

Your last point underlines the need to distinguish between anglicisation of the phonetics of gaelic names, translations into English of the sense of a gaelic name, and the attribution of a completely new new English name to a place.

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

I wonder how much it all matters - what the actual yield is in terms of the nation's welfare. The period of anglicisation is a long way back if we place it before 1922. The term to-day can only apply to the functional choice of English made by a free people which presumably will continue on its historic track.

Anglicisation continued well up to and beyond 1922. As for a functional choice made by free people, During the 19th centuary and today, it is quite dificult to speak of 'free choice' when speaking of language shift accross populations. You could take a quick look at a situation and conclude that people are simply making a choice to speak one language over another, but often on closer inspection in cases like this, state policy will be found to have been acting to push or pull them in their decisions and even today the actions of the state are quite weighted twords pushing people to English usage.

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

"Cloch and Charraigh" will soon become "Clockacarry" anyway.

The point of my post was that this almost certainly will not happen, there are very few examples to suggest that it will.

If Clockacarry is not already a recognised name for it, ie its not on the signs for the place etc, then it will probably never come to be recognised as a name for the place in the absence of it being imposed from outside as most existing English language placenames were historicaly.

The point is that places that have an English language name in Ireland today did not get those names over time as a result of the local community changing them to suit their new spoken language, they were almost all imposed from outside by the state administration.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

Anglicisation continued well up to and beyond 1922. As for a functional choice made by free people, During the 19th centuary and today, it is quite dificult to speak of 'free choice' when speaking of language shift accross populations. You could take a quike look at a situation and conclude that people are simply making a choice to speak one language over another, but often on closer inspection in cases like this, state policy will be found to have been acting to push or pull them in their decisions and even today the actions of the state are quite weighted twords pushing people to English usage.

Obviously you are correct. There are powerful forces pushing the population into being English-speaking. But is the State, post-1922, maintaining programmes to preserve Irish in the face of those forces?
Surely that is undeniable.

The issues that arise are the degree to which the efforts of the state are effective, and how far, in terms of civil liberty, the state should impose its programmes on a population that has persisted in the other linguistic choice.