How to revive the Irish language.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't think its fair to say the Government tried to reintroduce Irish through Violence. No one was ever hanged because they couldent speak Irish. Corporal punishment was part of the education system, but that was true of all subjets and would have been the cse regardless of Irish.

Yep: "Violence" is a very violent word. But there was a situation - the new governments after 1922 wanted the population to speak Irish and the population didn't want to. So the state elite did apply some pretty severe arm-twisting.

• No government job of any sort could be had without passing an exam in Irish or advancement in the service without successive exams.
• A very big proportion of school time was given to learning Irish (25% more than arithmetic; twice as much as English; five times as much as History or Geopraphy.) No science, of course.The school leaving age then was 14 years so many young people emigrated as illiterates as a result of this regime.)
• Special rewards to teachers to learn Irish and heavy penalties to those who did not: employment measures including retaining 60% of the teacher training places for fíor-gaeltacht candidates with 20% for breac-gaeltacht.
• No Leaving Certificate of any sort was awarded to any candidate who did not pass in Irish thereby thereby making all career starts harder for those with no certification concerning their achievements. In particular, this meshed with the block on entry to the National University colleges without that same pass in Irish.
• For one long period National School teachers were forbidden to teach their infant classes in English in the belief that children could me made to use Irish ("An modh díreach" meaning that you learned to say "Will cadd agum dull amok maw shay the hollah" in order to go to the loo.)

And, although violence was exercised throughout the education system, for some older people the memory is connected in a special way with the Revival. This must be because (for boys) the Revival was connected in a special way with the Christian Brothers who were in turn connected ina special way with violence. Hence, a sort of composite image of the past...

Interest in History

9959 wrote: »

We used to find it funny at school (2nd level) when during an Irish lesson a teacher would come in to the class to have a word with our teacher, of course they would converse 'as Gaelige' in order to render their conversation impenetrable to their nosey students. It worked every time. Irish language education, mad stuff!

John Harris in his researces points out atht the affinity of teachers with Irish, and their knowledge of it, are on a considerably higher level that the population at large. Not surprising.

I think this also taps into the reluctance of T.D.s to reform the system as up to a quarter of the Deputies at different periods have had a teaching background. (They are able to keep their teaching jobs to come back to if the lose their Dáil seats or decide to retire. Pure corruption of democracy, of course!)

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't think its fair to say the Government tried to reintroduce Irish through Violence.

OK then: 'coercion'. The use of threats and sanctions to make people do something they don't want to do. Shaming people for not speaking a language, not their own.

Call it what you like, but it's wrong.

9959

Interest in History wrote: »

John Harris in his researces points out atht the affinity of teachers with Irish, and their knowledge of it, are on a considerably higher level that the population at large. Not surprising.

I think this also taps into the reluctance of T.D.s to reform the system as up to a quarter of the Deputies at different periods have had a teaching background. (They are able to keep their teaching jobs to come back to if the lose their Dáil seats or decide to retire. Pure corruption of democracy, of course!)

Not so fast.
It would also be true that the affinity of teachers with Science, and their knowledge of it, are on a considerably higher level than that of the population at large.
Yet most students leave second level education with a reasonable grounding in basic science, not so with Irish.
Explain?

token101

9959 wrote: »

Yet most students leave second level education with a reasonable grounding in basic science, not so with Irish.
Explain?

No one has any interest in Irish because it has no meaningful application for most people.

Doc Ruby

stanley 2 wrote: »

only love and common sence could reintroduce now ( and maybe fianacial reward )

On that note, and at the risk of introducing constructiveness to the bitter, I think cartoons and television are the way forward here. Look at how many people go mad for Japanese anime and immerse themselves in Japanese culture purely as a result. Our mythological cycle is fascinating and spectacular, much more so than many other cultures in my opinion, and releasing animated interpretations of these as Gaeilge or in mixed tongues could be a big step forward both at home and abroad.

Don't take my word for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL-7GVAmDHs

More of that please, lots more. Irish unfortunately has a negative political connotation for those who oppose Ireland as an independent entity, so I wouldn't expect much support from that shower of dinosaurs, but it really is a beautiful and ancient language with an astonishing depth of history behind it. The way it has been taught in schools is one step off criminal however.

Win it with cartoons!

9959

token101 wrote: »

No one has any interest in Irish because it has no meaningful application for most people.

Correct

opti0nal

Doc Ruby wrote: »

More of that please, lots more. Irish unfortunately has a negative political connotation for those who oppose Ireland as an independent entity, so I wouldn't expect much support from that shower of dinosaurs, ... The way it has been taught in schools is one step off criminal however.

You appear a bit conflicted here.

On the one hand, you grossly abuse the majority population who choose the speak English and in every practical way, avoid learning or speaking Irish. Yet, you acknowledge the great harm done to that population and to the language itself by the coercive teaching of Irish.

NegativeCreep

All funding towards Irish should be cut. If people want to speak it they can. But at a time when there are some people who can't feed themselves it makes no sense to be pumping money into the promotion of a dead language.

Students should be able to drop Irish after junior cert in favour of a useful subject, like a second science subject or something else.

Doc Ruby

opti0nal wrote: »

On the one hand, you grossly abuse the majority population who choose the speak English and in every practical way, avoid learning or speaking Irish. Yet, you acknowledge the great harm done to that population and to the language itself by the coercive teaching of Irish.

You appear to be more than a little conflicted yourself, since what I said and what you claim I said bear no similarity. That one segment of The Secret of Kells has comments in fifty different languages, all repeating the same word. Here's one Korean lad with another version: 아름답다

It means "beautiful".

The makers of that movie are laughing at your practicality all the way to the bank. Its got hundreds of remixes on youtube, and that's just one song. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6wADgiZgaA

There's a deep appetite for Irish language and culture out there, for anyone cute enough to tap into it.

opti0nal

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You appear to be more than a little conflicted yourself, since what I said and what you claim I said bear no similarity.

So, when you were referring people with a to a nagative attitude towards Irish, who were you referring to? I assumed you were referring to the majority of the population of this country who are English-speaking and have no great interest in learning or speaking Irish.

Are the 'dinosaurs' actually straw men of some kind?

As for your statement of a 'deep appetite for Irish language and culture', this is an attempt to replace fact with fantasy. The guy in the original video could not find anyone other than a Luas ticket machine to speak a fully formed sentence in Irish for him. After numerous attempts, and more out-takes, nobody stopped to satisfy a deep craving to converse with him in Irish.

Doc Ruby

opti0nal wrote: »

So, when you were referring people with a to a nagative attitude towards Irish, who were you referring to? I assumed you were referring to the majority of the population of this country who are English-speaking and have no great interest in learning or speaking Irish.

Oh, internet sarcasm, gosh. Tell me, how in your diatribe did "English speaking" translate to "those who oppose Ireland as an independent entity"? Really, I'm fascinated. Or are you one of these people who assumes that anyone who speaks English is an Anglophile? Because wow, that's really ignorant.

opti0nal wrote: »

As for your statement of a 'deep appetite for Irish language and culture', this is an attempt to replace fact with fantasy. The guy in the original video could not find anyone other than a Luas ticket machine to speak a fully formed sentence in Irish for him. After numerous attempts, and more out-takes, nobody stopped to satisfy a deep craving to converse with him in Irish.

This looks like you're expressing a contempt for Irish people and their unique culture, do correct me if I'm wrong.

You know how many millions the creators of Riverdance made in a single year? More than you make, that's for sure. Flatley was worth over a quarter of a billion at last count, I think he topped the €400 million recently. You know he lives in a castle, right? As opposed to which you've got an I assume youtube video about a guy on the Luas. Or to put it another way, the facts are not on your side.

raymann

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh, internet sarcasm, gosh. Tell me, how in your diatribe did "English speaking" translate to "those who oppose Ireland as an independent entity"? Really, I'm fascinated. Or are you one of these people who assumes that anyone who speaks English is an Anglophile? Because wow, that's really ignorant.


This looks like you're expressing a contempt for Irish people and their unique culture, do correct me if I'm wrong.

You know how many millions the creators of Riverdance made in a single year? More than you make, that's for sure. Flatley was worth over a quarter of a billion at last count, I think he topped the €400 million recently. You know he lives in a castle, right? As opposed to which you've got an I assume youtube video about a guy on the Luas. Or to put it another way, the facts are not on your side.

what are you on about?

Doc Ruby

raymann wrote: »

what are you on about?

The Irish language and culture have a big international appeal. Some people have a problem with that, but the facts (supported by references) are quite clear.

opti0nal

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh, internet sarcasm, gosh. Tell me, how in your diatribe did "English speaking" translate to "those who oppose Ireland as an independent entity"? Really, I'm fascinated. Or are you one of these people who assumes that anyone who speaks English is an Anglophile? Because wow, that's really ignorant.

I just assumed you were an Irish language bigot.

So, who are these people you refer to as 'dinosaurs'?

English-speaking is a major of our culture and is a far greater influence on who we are than Irish speaking. This is a fact.

Doc Ruby

opti0nal wrote: »

I just assumed you were an Irish language bigot.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions. Who is an "Irish language bigot" to you, anyone who speaks it?

opti0nal wrote: »

English-speaking is a major of our culture and is a far greater influence on who we are than Irish speaking. This is a fact.

English is what we speak. Irish is who we are. But hey if you're happy enough to miss out on the massive financial opportunities offered by the culture, that's your call. Michael Flatley says "lol".

opti0nal

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You seem to make a lot of assumptions. Who is an "Irish language bigot" to you, anyone who speaks it?

No, it's someone who imposes it on others.

Doc Ruby

opti0nal wrote: »

No, it's someone who imposes it on others.

Well great then what the good feck are you arguing about. I'm saying that we should take a positive stance and light a candle, the language is beautiful and the potential is tremendous. I'm talking real hard cash here, not ephemeral nationalistic sentiment. People have had enough of king arthur and robin hood, I say. Lets bring them cyborg-armed tuatha de dannan and balor of the evil eye! Cha ching.

opti0nal

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'm saying that we should take a positive stance and light a candle, the language is beautiful and the potential is tremendous. I'm talking real hard cash here, .

Will you be lighting that candle with taxpayers' money?

Doc Ruby

opti0nal wrote: »

Will you be lighting that candle with taxpayers' money?

Do I strike you as a politician?

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

English is what we speak. Irish is who we are. But hey if you're happy enough to miss out on the massive financial opportunities offered by the culture, that's your call. Michael Flatley says "lol".

Ron Paul and Warren Buffet lol at you basing your business idea on artifical demand created by the government. But you know what ever that's cool too. Call me when you're rich.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ron Paul and Warren Buffet lol at you basing your business idea on artifical demand created by the government. But you know what ever that's cool too. Call me when you're rich.

There's so much ignorance in this comment its hard to justify even replying. But I'm committed, I'll go that extra kilometer. Who do you think paid all those millions, Irish people? A swing and a miss, the Riverdance show has toured many many countries, always to sellout crowds. And as we're on the subject, I'm already rich, and have no intention of calling you.

bluecode

We could have virtually everyone speaking Irish in less than a generation. Right now there a few Irish speaking schools. My son started in one last year. He's five and it's remarkable to hear him having a conversation with his Mother in Irish. Not me, when I try he just corrects my pronunciaton.

Essentially all that's needed is for ALL schools to be Irish speaking from the start. No exceptions.

There are several superb Irish speaking schools. Simply using the techniques they use and this debate would be over or at least it would be continued in Irish.

It'll never happen of course. We Irish seemed ashamed of our language and certainly the way it was taught made sure most people hated it.

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

There's so much ignorance in this comment its hard to justify even replying. But I'm committed, I'll go that extra kilometer. Who do you think paid all those millions, Irish people? A swing and a miss, the Riverdance show has toured many many countries, always to sellout crowds.

Riverdance was successful because it was good not because it was Irish. Of course Flately whored himself out to the "Irish" Americans and who would blame him? But you seem to be under the impression that Riverdance was successful "because" it was Irish. This isn't true. It was successful because it was good the Irish bit was only a bonus.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

And as we're on the subject, I'm already rich, and have no intention of calling you.

Of course you are.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Riverdance was successful because it was good not because it was Irish.

Interesting. So an Irish dancing show featuring nothing but Irish dancing was successful not because it was Irish.

Why do you hate Ireland?

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Interesting. So an Irish dancing show featuring nothing but Irish dancing was successful not because it was Irish.

Oh it definitely helped bring in those Irish American punters. But the dance was successful because it was dramatic theatrical and over all... good. When it was shown on the Eurovision it was a huge success but the average German couldn't care less that it was based on traditional irish dancing. They only liked it because it was good.

Not that I see what this has to do with the Irish language.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Why do you hate Ireland?

Jesus, bit of a jump in logic there Doc? :eek: I doubt a person who thinks in such absolutes is rich.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh it definitely helped bring in those Irish American punters. But the dance was successful because it was dramatic theatrical and over all... good. When it was shown on the Eurovision it was a huge success but the average German couldn't care less that it was based on traditional irish dancing. They only liked it because it was good.

...and it was good because Irish dancing is good. But let's move away from the dancing for a moment. Where do you think this was filmed, (hint:not America) and how many people do you think were in the audience?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFI85TBAx9A

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Jesus, bit of a jump in logic there Doc? :eek:

You do seem to be bent over backwards to deny any value in the Irish culture. Where are you from again?

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

...and it was good because Irish dancing is good.

No sorry you lost me there.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You do seem to be bent over backwards to deny any value in the Irish culture. Where are you from again?

I bend over backwards to deny your one eyed version of Irish culture where we call dance with comely maidens at the cross roads. Look I'm not against anyones culture. If you want to watch Michael Flately go ahead that's your right as an adult. But the state should not be offering it's support to subjective endeavours like this.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No sorry you lost me there.

That's alright, Michael Flatley and company have gained tremendously by it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I bend over backwards to deny your one eyed version of Irish culture where we call dance with comely maidens at the cross roads.

Seriously? I'm not even a Christian, nor anything slightly resembling one.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Look I'm not against anyones culture.

Oh yes you are. Don't bother denying it, the writing on the wall is clear for even the most bass ackward denizens of this hive of villainy to see.

Iwasfrozen

Doc Ruby wrote: »

That's alright, Michael Flatley and company have gained tremendously by it.

Good for them. What's your point?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Seriously? I'm not even a Christian, nor anything slightly resembling one.

I never mentioned religion.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oh yes you are. Don't bother denying it, the writing on the wall is clear for even the most bass ackward denizens of this hive of villainy to see.

I know what I am better then you do thanks. We live in a free country and in this free country you are entitled to follow what ever interests you want. I don't deny you that freedom I just don't want the government supporting cultural projects. I don't believe that is their business.