So I have an Electric car on test..

Bodhan

Darsad wrote: »

[Quote

Taking the readings from my electric meter I've done 175kms for 3.50 Euro of home charging

Ha so electric cars actually cost motoring journos more to run than a top of the range super car ? Suppose you could give renault your esb bill :-![/QUOTE]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that it cost more than a super car. I put damn near 90 euro into the 640d for 5 days driving (most of that used giving drives to Boards members!)

Cars cost money no matter what your job, the Fluence EV has been by far the cheapest I've had on test, though my millage is low this week.

Bodhan

pburns wrote: »

Has anyone mentioned the Opel Ampera?

OK, I'm not sure I like the looks or cost (that's a discussion for another day) but in a way it plugs the gap between hybrid and full EV. An EV without the range anxiety if you like. It seems to me a more promising solution.

All this talk about dropping in batteries, dropping out batteries, having to charge on a Dublin-Galway run ruins the EV thing for me. I presume the infrastructure for swapping batteries would be limited to regular opening hours in Renault garages? Yeah, that's real convenient...

As a 2nd car? Frankly I think a Panda would be as cost-effective and versatile.

Renault are pulling out all the stops on PR because they've bet the house on EV. Let's just say I remain to be convinced...

The Ampera has yet to be tested in Ireland, it seem like a good idea though.

Depending on your needs, I think I would get the best use out of the EV models as a second car, I wouldn't have any fear leaving it sitting for two weeks. So for me EV would work.

Bodhan

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Careful now.... You should probably read the large sprawling thread on the rumored possible motor tax hike.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056567929

You're very likely to rouse an angry mob by suggesting more fuel efficient vehicles / low CO2 emission vehicles should be taxed less!

The current tax system is based on CO2 emissions of the vehicle, as the EV's emit nothing and there will be at best 10% of the cars on the road there's no point in going mad about how they are taxed.
Proper incentives with real world reviews will lead to proper taxing system in Ireland. There's never going to be a fair way to tax everyone unless you tax fuel, in that case EV pays no tax.
Don't forget there's heaps of tax on electricity and that's where the fuel comes from. So we all pay tax

Oafley Jones

Out of interest, could anyone calculate the energy requirements, should say 25% of the current numbers of cars in the country magically be transformed into EVs in the morning.

Anan1

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Out of interest, could anyone calculate the energy requirements, should say 25% of the current numbers of cars in the country magically be transformed into EVs in the morning.

No idea, but there'd presumably be a substantial saving.

Drummerboy08

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

......... there is talk of a development where you drive your Renault EV into a "garage" and over a machine, where this machine removes the current, empty battery and replaces it with a fully charged battery. This should only take 5 minutes and is fully automated..........

I reckon folks with a very new EV and battery might be very hesitant to use that facility.

LLU

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Out of interest, could anyone calculate the energy requirements, should say 25% of the current numbers of cars in the country magically be transformed into EVs in the morning.

A good point and one which I've wondered about as well.

As far as I know the national grid is already operating too close to its capacity and is in need of a considerable upgrade. If so, it is not ideally placed to take on the additional load of charging large numbers of vehicles.

Never Wrong

LLU wrote: »

A good point and one which I've wondered about as well.

As far as I know the national grid is already operating too close to its capacity and is in need of a considerable upgrade. If so, it is not ideally placed to take on the additional load of charging large numbers of vehicles.

Completely inaccurate. See Page 29 of this report:

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/GAR%202009-2015.pdf

If you had the need to, could the car be used as a getaway vehicle (if it was fully charged of course) ?

Marcusm

RoverJames wrote: »

I reckon folks with a very new EV and battery might be very hesitant to use that facility.

It's actually the business model of a Renault/Nissan partner (BetterPlace) in operation in Israel and Denmark (pretty high population densities). The battery switch out is designed to e pretty much as quick as filling the tank, would be available in service stations on a motorway network and integrated into the monthly fee. I.e. you don't rent a particular battery but are entitled to use batteries generally. I think this would eliminate range anxiety and battery degradation for users generally bu I think it's hard to see it being rolled out in Ireland in the short term given demographics,

I was involved n a team evaluating I t for investment (which was ade). with the right demographics, I see it working well as it would mean it could genuinely be seen as a general use car.

shedweller

Some info on lithium ion batteries:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries



Granted they are referring to mobile phone batteries but that's more or less what an EV battery is right?
Anyway, another, more critical view of lithium ion batteries can be found here:http://www.techatplay.com/?p=61

Here's tip no.1

Tip #1: Lithium-ion batteries are limited by their life-spans
Found an e-bay offer for a lithium-ion battery pack for your ageing notebook or PDA at bargain prices? Or saw that battery pack for your gadget in its dusty sealed package at the corner store of the flea market? Before you jump and snap it up, be sure to first check the manufacturer date. We all know that all batteries are limited by a finite number of charging “cycles”. However, it is a little publicized fact that the lifespan of lithium-ion batteries are also limited by their manufacture date.
your lithium-ion battery starts dying the moment it leaves the factory

The fact is, your lithium-ion battery starts dying the moment it leaves the factory! Of course, the actual life-span of an unused lithium-ion battery can vary by a fair amount based on its internal charge as well as the external temperature. But suffice to say that you can expect to irreversibly lose 20% of a lithium-ion battery’s charge every year from its original date of manufacture.
PDA came with more than one spare battery? Take it out of its shrink-wrap and use it interchangeably – today. Thinking of buying a “spare” battery for use in future? Well, just save the money and buy it only when you are ready to use it.

20% you say.........9k per battery....half the range in three years?
Battery tech has to improve soon before EV's will take off.
That's my main gripe with EV's right now.

jackbauer

Not to bore everyone to death but a point needs to be made regards EV batteries. The last time I checked the term "Lithium-ion Battery" actually encompassed some 27 different cathode chemisteries. The type fitted to mobile phones etc are COMPLETLY different from that fitted to a modern EV. Yes , certainly if I used cheap and nasty phone batteries in my car then I wouldn't get far or last long. On the other hand if I used an ev battery to power my phone I could talk until the end of time. The Lithium iron phosphate cell is gauranteed to reach at least 5000 cycles to 80% DOD and recent tests have shown this going out beyond 8000 cycles. Oh , and they have no measurable self discharge. The cell does not have a mechanism to allow it. So assuming no parasitic loads I can park my car at the airport , go on a 5 year holiday , come back and drive home.

Oh and on the cost issue. Two years ago my battery cost 4,500 euros delivered in a single quantity. Priced it last week. 3,250. I could buy a 24kwh battery off the shelf today (same capacity as the leaf) for 7,500 delivered in a single qty.

Bodhan

Just to put something else in the discussion about batteries.

The big lump in the boot is actually many batteries all linked together, part of the point of leasing them is that they can be checked for a faulty one in the group.
As far as I know from Renault, individual cells can be replaced from the pack the cost of which should be covered under the lease, that would bring down the cost with replacing batteries.

justsomebloke

For me the big question in relation to electric cars will be how will the government make money off them?

It's one thing to say it costs €3.50 to currently charge but you have to think the government will have to slap some sort of VAT or tax on it to make the equivalent amount of money as they are currently getting from fuel sales.

Add that to the cost of renting the battery and these cars could become very expensive very quickly

justsomebloke

justsomebloke wrote: »

For me the big question in relation to electric cars will be how will the government make money off them?.......................
Add that to the cost of renting the battery and these cars could become very expensive very quickly

http://youtu.be/utzTzJE9R38

dr.fuzzenstein

justsomebloke wrote: »

For me the big question in relation to electric cars will be how will the government make money off them?

It's one thing to say it costs €3.50 to currently charge but you have to think the government will have to slap some sort of VAT or tax on it to make the equivalent amount of money as they are currently getting from fuel sales.

Add that to the cost of renting the battery and these cars could become very expensive very quickly

Well, that depends on prevalence.
If only a small minority have EV's and the government needs more to keep the eco mafia happy, there will always be incentives. But only if the majority won't get shifted out of petrol/diesel cars, even with €3k road tax, 50% VRT and fuel at €3.00 a liter.
Should the majority however decide "enough of this nonsense, I'm going electric" and tax take plummets and leaves a several billion hole in the state coffers, EV's will be taxed to sh*t, just like regular cars are now.
I'd say sky high road tax, tax on batteries and electricity through the roof.
The government needs X amount of money, any less and they have to hike tax. You just have to be quick to exploit any loopholes and incentives going, there is no one solution and no one way to save a few bucks will work forever.
One thing though, that will take a few years.
So now is the time to have an EV.
But the eco argument on the governments part is complete bullsh*t, they don't care what we drive as long as they get their money.
Remember: Politicians are bullsh*tters, liars, chancers, only out for themselves and would sell their Granny for a few more votes.
And they're most likely not even human, my guess some kind of lizard creatures underneath.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

..........
So now is the time to have an EV.

If you can't run an ICE powered car for less, all in

Mellio

Bodhan wrote: »

You lease the battery from Renault, I don't think they will allow you to buy a battery for it. Battery would cost about 8-9k on its own. If you want to buy an EV car outright the Nissan Leaf, Citroen C Zero, Mitsubishi I-Mev well you get the idea. Renault are the only ones doing the lease thing, personally I think the lease is the best option because you can sell the car at anytime and the lease moves with it.

I dont see that selling the car with a lease attached to it as a positive as people would need to way up the benefits say of buying a car with 3 months left on the lease, where do they go from there?

Then there is the excess mileage thing, say the seller has clocked up 10,000 miles from Jan - Aug, does the purchaser then pay the ongoing rental costs and the excess mileage costs for the remainder of the year?



and how do they value the car?

Can the new owner take out another 3 year lease on a new battery
after the 3 moths is up?

So many variables on this vehicle its mind boggling.


In relation to the instant battery replacements is there not an environmental
issue with having loads of old batteries lying around to be disposed of or can the old shells be re-used effectively elimintaing this?

piston

The problem is that EVs still have the same real issues as ICE cars - congestion, wear and tear on the roads, potential to do a lot of damage in an accident so I see no reason why they should be taxed less.

creedp

Bodhan wrote: »

The power stations were and are putting out the gasses long before the EV cars came on the scene. Maybe the power stations should be fined?

ESB Ireland are on a clean up, though it'll take awhile

So Road Tax is only levied because of CO2 emissions? It is madness to have a Motor Tax system based exclusively on CO2 emisisons when EV's and other low CO2 emitting cars also use the road infrastructure. EV's cost the state/taxpayer money in the same way as ICE cars in terms of providing and maintaining a road network and the usual pleotera of road safety measures .. who pays for Gay Byrne? To suggest that becasue EVs don't emit CO2 they should not pay any Road/Motor Tax simply does not stack up!

BrianD3

I don't like the electric Fluence, stretching the boot and sticking a big battery pack in there seems like a crude attempt at an electric vehicle. It also makes the boot less usable (no folding rear seats?) and the car uglier compared to a normal Fluence which is itself no oil painting. Also the car only has a 4 star NCAP rating, not really acceptable for a car costing over 20k in 2012. For packaging reasons I would have thought that a well designed electric vehicle should have safety advantages compared to an internal combustion vehicle.

I don't like the styling of the Leaf and don't like the fact that that there is no option to lease the batteries. However it does seem like a better car than the Fluence. I think the Renault Zoe could be better still.

Sesshoumaru

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, that depends on prevalence.
If only a small minority have EV's and the government needs more to keep the eco mafia happy, there will always be incentives. But only if the majority won't get shifted out of petrol/diesel cars, even with €3k road tax, 50% VRT and fuel at €3.00 a liter.
Should the majority however decide "enough of this nonsense, I'm going electric" and tax take plummets and leaves a several billion hole in the state coffers, EV's will be taxed to sh*t, just like regular cars are now.
I'd say sky high road tax, tax on batteries and electricity through the roof.
The government needs X amount of money, any less and they have to hike tax. You just have to be quick to exploit any loopholes and incentives going, there is no one solution and no one way to save a few bucks will work forever.
One thing though, that will take a few years.
So now is the time to have an EV.
But the eco argument on the governments part is complete bullsh*t, they don't care what we drive as long as they get their money.
Remember: Politicians are bullsh*tters, liars, chancers, only out for themselves and would sell their Granny for a few more votes.
And they're most likely not even human, my guess some kind of lizard creatures underneath.

What you pay at the petrol pump has a considerable tax element. The other large part of what you pay at the pump is decided by what we pay for a barrel of oil. Besides a small input from bio-fuels (which take away valuable land we need for growing food) that is the only source of energy for an ICE car.

With an EV we can power it from Nuclear, Tidal, Wind, Oil, Gas etc A lot of those can be domestically produced and others are simply cheaper than oil or will be in the near future. So with EV's we can domestically produce power for them and in doing so create our own energy industry with the jobs and tax take it brings. The energy would also be cheaper than buying Iranian or Saudi oil, so even with the same level of tax applied, it should still be cheaper than the current import oil model.

creedp

justsomebloke wrote: »

For me the big question in relation to electric cars will be how will the government make money off them?

It's one thing to say it costs €3.50 to currently charge but you have to think the government will have to slap some sort of VAT or tax on it to make the equivalent amount of money as they are currently getting from fuel sales.

Add that to the cost of renting the battery and these cars could become very expensive very quickly

There are many ways to potentially make money off EV's. A very simple one is an annual charge for road maintance/road usage to replace the duty lost from motor fuel tax. This could be paid once a year like Motor Tax or on a monthly basis. Another way is what was proposed in the UK some time back relates to pay by mile/km travelled controlled by GPS. One way or another once [if] Ev's reach a critical mass which will significantly reduce motor fuel duty an EV tax/charge will be devised. There are only 2 certainties in life .. death and tax

shedweller

I expect more widespread road tolls or gps tolls etc. it's a long way off so there is plenty of time to get the infrastructure in place.

Bodhan

Mellio wrote: »

I dont see that selling the car with a lease attached to it as a positive as people would need to way up the benefits say of buying a car with 3 months left on the lease, where do they go from there?

Then there is the excess mileage thing, say the seller has clocked up 10,000 miles from Jan - Aug, does the purchaser then pay the ongoing rental costs and the excess mileage costs for the remainder of the year?



and how do they value the car?

Can the new owner take out another 3 year lease on a new battery
after the 3 moths is up?

So many variables on this vehicle its mind boggling.


In relation to the instant battery replacements is there not an environmental
issue with having loads of old batteries lying around to be disposed of or can the old shells be re-used effectively elimintaing this?

The variables are something that haven't happened yet so it's kind of hard to comment.

Renault/Nissan are set to be the worlds biggest battery recycling group, they have the infrastructure in place to deal with recycling batteries already, I think they might end up being the biggest battery maker too

Bodhan

piston wrote: »

The problem is that EVs still have the same real issues as ICE cars - congestion, wear and tear on the roads, potential to do a lot of damage in an accident so I see no reason why they should be taxed less.

Is this where you think your motor tax is being spent? My point is, there will be very few EV's on the road, the road tax is CO2 based and EV emit none.
EV's have to charge in public car parks where they will have to pay for charging and parking.
I'm just saying that if there was more incentive to buy one more people would

Bodhan

creedp wrote: »

So Road Tax is only levied because of CO2 emissions? It is madness to have a Motor Tax system based exclusively on CO2 emisisons when EV's and other low CO2 emitting cars also use the road infrastructure. EV's cost the state/taxpayer money in the same way as ICE cars in terms of providing and maintaining a road network and the usual pleotera of road safety measures .. who pays for Gay Byrne? To suggest that becasue EVs don't emit CO2 they should not pay any Road/Motor Tax simply does not stack up!

It wasn't my idea to levy road tax based on CO2 is was Europe and the Green Party.
I said there should be an incentive, lower or special road tax for EV cars say 50 Euro or something. If there was a 1000 of them on the road at 160 euro each that's 160,000 or @50 euro is 50,000.
But people have already proven that if the tax was lower they will buy more which is why almost everyone who bought a new car in the last two years bought tax band A or B.
If the tax was lower more people might be tempted that might mean there's 1500 on the road netting more tax.

Tax is not really the point here, it's Q&A about EV cars. It's tax band A now and that won't change.

Sesshoumaru

The price of the Leaf is often raised as an issue, so just thought I'd point out it seems to have been lowered by 5,000 euro today. I only noticed this today when I saw a comment on it elsewhere. I don't know if it's temporary or permanent, but might make a difference to some.

Bodhan

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

The price of the Leaf is often raised as an issue, so just thought I'd point out it seems to have been lowered by 5,000 euro today. I only noticed this today when I saw a comment on it elsewhere. I don't know if it's temporary or permanent, but might make a difference to some.

They might be feeling the pressure from Renault, that 5k makes off the difference though

L1011

Kinikie wrote: »

How many public chargers are there? And are they all city based?

Not very many. But not all city based at all.

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

Green / blue = exist, orange = planned, purple = exist but currently broken. As you can see, one being broken could strand you at the moment.

I drive a lot and I have NEVER seen a car using one. Only time I've even seen a photo of one is Seshomara's car parked at my local one.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

but look at it this way, id say little chef are ramping up their plans and puring money into EV's , what better way to make money than have somebody forced to sit around for a few hours while the car charges

You're aware Little Chef sold out to Eddie Rockets here ages ago - we'd have to ban motors meets from going there if they did that