How many Irish would make a Lions Team/Squad right now?

totallegend

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

Never know. How many caps did Earls have when he got the call in 2009?

Earls had never played for Ireland a year before the Lions series, that much is true, and in fact had never even started a game for Munster at this point four years ago. Still:
a) It would be a miracle if Henderson breaks into the Ulster first team in the next year and
b) Earls was never a contender for a Lions test team when he was out there
So it would be some achievement for Henderson to get in there....

thomond2006

jesus this henderson hype is gone beyond overdrive, don't jinx the fella!

Swan Curry

There's a difference between giving youth a chance and throwing someone in the deep end!

jacothelad

Swan Curry wrote: »

There's a difference between giving youth a chance and throwing someone in the deep end!

Unless it's in N.Z., S.A., or Oz. They call it developing and using talent. Our players with 'potential' are 25 / 6 / 7 / 8 year olds with all the razz and hope coached out of them while they wait for dead men's shoes. If Ireland can't see that there is no room for O'Gara, DOC, Cullen, Wallace etc. now, we are totally butthoked and backscuttled. Let's give the young guys their head. I'd rather see J.J. start at 10 in Munster's first RaboPro12 game than ROG. I'd rather see Spence or L.Marshall than Wallace, Nagle over DOC etc.

matthew8

jacothelad wrote: »

Unless it's in N.Z., S.A., or Oz. They call it developing and using talent. Our players with 'potential' are 25 / 6 / 7 / 8 year olds with all the razz and hope coached out of them while they wait for dead men's shoes. If Ireland can't see that there is no room for O'Gara, DOC, Cullen, Wallace etc. now, we are totally butthoked and backscuttled. Let's give the young guys their head. I'd rather see J.J. start at 10 in Munster's first RaboPro12 game than ROG. I'd rather see Spence or L.Marshall than Wallace, Nagle over DOC etc.

I wouldn't go as far. The best way to develop players is the way Leinster treat the mickey mouse games, like away to the Dragons which always seems to be an absolute nothing game. Send a totally young team over and give them a chance. If they get thrashed, keep the faith in them and eventually they'll come through as good pros. I remember a game in Glasgow a while back that we lost 30-6 with some bizarre refereeing decisions, but I bet if we sent that side again they would give them a very good match. Ireland need to find an equivalent. We need the nothing game against first teams.

Podge_irl

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far. The best way to develop players is the way Leinster treat the mickey mouse games, like away to the Dragons which always seems to be an absolute nothing game. Send a totally young team over and give them a chance. If they get thrashed, keep the faith in them and eventually they'll come through as good pros. I remember a game in Glasgow a while back that we lost 30-6 with some bizarre refereeing decisions, but I bet if we sent that side again they would give them a very good match. Ireland need to find an equivalent. We need the nothing game against first teams.

Leinster haven't done that since Cheika left and I think it was an absurd way of developing young talent. They only exposure some young players got to the team was getting hockied.

Tox56

Podge_irl wrote: »

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far. The best way to develop players is the way Leinster treat the mickey mouse games, like away to the Dragons which always seems to be an absolute nothing game. Send a totally young team over and give them a chance. If they get thrashed, keep the faith in them and eventually they'll come through as good pros. I remember a game in Glasgow a while back that we lost 30-6 with some bizarre refereeing decisions, but I bet if we sent that side again they would give them a very good match. Ireland need to find an equivalent. We need the nothing game against first teams.

Leinster haven't done that since Cheika left and I think it was an absurd way of developing young talent. They only exposure some young players got to the team was getting hockied.

Well we sent a young team down to the Dragons in the last game of last season and they won. Although that was the definition of a 'nothing game', neither team had anything to play for whatsoever

durkadurka

Joe usually fields mixed strength teams.

He even did it in HEC games last year to a minor extent. You'd see maybe one young back and one young forward surrounded by experience.

Cheiks sent b teams frequently but I saw little benefit in it.

A mixed strength team allows a bit of shelter to the young guys in case they have a mare.

CatFromHue

jacothelad wrote: »

Unless it's in N.Z., S.A., or Oz. They call it developing and using talent. Our players with 'potential' are 25 / 6 / 7 / 8 year olds with all the razz and hope coached out of them while they wait for dead men's shoes. If Ireland can't see that there is no room for O'Gara, DOC, Cullen, Wallace etc. now, we are totally butthoked and backscuttled. Let's give the young guys their head. I'd rather see J.J. start at 10 in Munster's first RaboPro12 game than ROG. I'd rather see Spence or L.Marshall than Wallace, Nagle over DOC etc.

NZ and SA are in the position that any player not in the international squad/periphery at age 25+ moves away from the country on a big money move to the NH or Japan. This is one reason why there are so many Kiwis and Saffers playing in Ireland for example. This creates a natural conveyor belt of players.

NZ and SA are covered in that they have plenty of pro teams to cover this in the Currie Cup (14 teams), ITM Cup (14 teams), and Super rugby teams (5 from both NZ and SA). The fact that the Currie Cup and ITM Cup run outside or largely outside the Super rugby season so there is plenty of rugby for younger players to get excellent experience. If a player is on the periphery of a Super team he is still able to get plenty of game time. Take Luke Romano for example. He was only getting a couple of starts and was mainly on the bench for the Crusaders last season as he was behind Brad Thorn/Chris Jack/Sam Whietlock. Then Thorn and Whitelock go to play with the All Blacks and Romano goes to the Canterbury ITM team and gets plenty of games there. Thorn leaves for Japan after the RWC and Romano is now in a great position to take over from him as in the ITM he'd have had 10+ starts in a row approximately.

In Ireland it is less attractive financially for older players to move outside the country so this creates less opportunities for younger players as there is a blockage, for want of a better phrase, on the conveyor belt. If it weren't for the money would a quarter of the players from NZ have moved North? I doubt it to be honest. Also everything is played concurrently up here so it's hard for a younger/inexperienced player to build up a block of starts (as Romano would have done in the ITM Cup where his major competition for the second row spot at the Crusaders weren't there (Thorn and Whitelock were with the AB's )).

So what do we do? I don't know to be honest. For the past two seasons both Cullen and Wallace have been excellent players for Leinster and Ulster. Dropping them for younger/inexperienced players could have had some big impact on the results of those two provinces. Next season I think Wallace will have a big impact on Ulsters performances as he'll be there to take some of the pressure off Jackson. Cullen will be rotated more with Leinster but will more than likely make up the second row with Toner.

Nagle in Munster he should have left there this Summer. Next season he'll be fourth choice lock at best but more than likely even lower as you have POC, Ryan, Foley, Holland, and DOC all in the mix. JJ as far as I know was mainly a centre for Munster A last season.

profitius

CatFromHue wrote: »

So what do we do? I don't know to be honest. For the past two seasons both Cullen and Wallace have been excellent players for Leinster and Ulster. Dropping them for younger/inexperienced players could have had some big impact on the results of those two provinces. Next season I think Wallace will have a big impact on Ulsters performances as he'll be there to take some of the pressure off Jackson. Cullen will be rotated more with Leinster but will more than likely make up the second row with Toner.

The tax break is a double edged sword. On the one hand it gives the wages of players a massive boost. The big downside to it is that the players have to finish their careers in Ireland. Thats why all the old players are hanging around for years. If they did away with that retiring in Ireland rule it would mean the provinces and players having the option of moving abroad.

If I was the IRFU I'd be more determined to bring through the new NIQ proposals next season. They'll have to do something because although Ireland have a poor coach, there player blockage is really hurting Ireland too.

durkadurka

Totaly agree on the tax break thing being very clumsy. I agree with the principle of a tax break to keep players in Ireland while they are at international standard (or above even), but the whole 'finish your career in Ireland' thing means that the likes of Stringer cant go to france or Japan or whatever for a heap of money when his international career is done a la Shane Williams.

Mick O Driscoll also might have wandered off earlier rather than sit on Munster's rabo team and then retire.


In the mean time there's a queue of people behind them waiting for them to die so to speak.

Let's give them a tax break for giving the best years of their career to Ireland , not the last few years.

rrpc

profitius wrote: »

The tax break is a double edged sword. On the one hand it gives the wages of players a massive boost. The big downside to it is that the players have to finish their careers in Ireland. Thats why all the old players are hanging around for years. If they did away with that retiring in Ireland rule it would mean the provinces and players having the option of moving abroad.

If I was the IRFU I'd be more determined to bring through the new NIQ proposals next season. They'll have to do something because although Ireland have a poor coach, there player blockage is really hurting Ireland too.

They don't have to spend all their last years in Ireland though, one year is enough and they could easily manage that by a stint in AIL or as a backup option for one of the provinces.

TOL has bitten the bullet and gone abroad to serve a few years in the AP. He'll most likely be back at the end of his stint and put in a year or two here before retiring (providing he doesn't end up with a career ending injury).

profitius

rrpc wrote: »

They don't have to spend all their last years in Ireland though, one year is enough and they could easily manage that by a stint in AIL or as a backup option for one of the provinces.

TOL has bitten the bullet and gone abroad to serve a few years in the AP. He'll most likely be back at the end of his stint and put in a year or two here before retiring (providing he doesn't end up with a career ending injury).

I'm not too sure but I think they changed the rules to stop that happening after one or two players did it.

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

They don't have to spend all their last years in Ireland though, one year is enough and they could easily manage that by a stint in AIL or as a backup option for one of the provinces.

TOL has bitten the bullet and gone abroad to serve a few years in the AP. He'll most likely be back at the end of his stint and put in a year or two here before retiring (providing he doesn't end up with a career ending injury).

A bigger blockage I'd say is that players are more settled in their thirties, got wives/girlfriends with jobs, kids in schools.

Much better plan to ship them away when they are kids and then bring them back.

Someone posted that the only reason Wannenberg left was because he could only get a 1 year contract and he wanted a bit of security for his family (and Ulster players don't benefit from the tax-back).

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

I'm not too sure but I think they changed the rules to stop that happening after one or two players did it.

Yep, Shane Byrne was the last I think. So a good while back now.

brinty

honestly, and trying to guess on Gatlands type of squad of big bruising players, which Ireland does not have, I only see about 8 payers going as set out below..I think the Welsh will have 20 the english 10/12 and the scots 4
Healy - Midweek
Best - test starter
POC - Midweek/test bench
SOB - Midweek/ test bench!!
Reddan - Midweek (Gats wanted him to tour when still a Wasp??)
Sexton - Midweek
Bowe - Test Starter
Kearney - Midweek (not in test squad as Gats will start Priestland at FH and need Halfpenny at FB as his Kicker, and Rob not versatile enough for bench)

How does that sound

profitius

How many players will be in the squad?

I think about 1/4 of the squad will be Irish. Healy, SOB, Ferris, POC, BOD, Bowe, Kearney, Ross, Heaslip, Best and Sexton look to be the most obvious. We can expect a few of those to miss out through injury so I suspect about 8 of those Irish players will travel plus one bolter.

GerM

brinty wrote: »

honestly, and trying to guess on Gatlands type of squad of big bruising players, which Ireland does not have

I'm not sure his preference is necessarily for these type of players. It just happens that most backs (assume you're referring to the backs as Wales' forwards aren't actually particularly large physically) playing in the Welsh regions at the moment are very big units so his international back line by default are bruisers.

Beck, Bishop, Jon Davies, Scott Williams, North, Adam Hughes, Ashley Smith, Pat Leach, Cuthbert, Czekaj, Jamie Roberts, Gavin Evans.

All regulars in the 4 regional sides and all are at least 6ft and 15 stone.

Podge_irl

There is not a hope of Priestland starting ahead of Sexton if their respective form continues. Wales won the 6N in spite of him not because of him. And he has been beyond useless for the Scarlets.

desertcircus

brinty wrote: »

honestly, and trying to guess on Gatlands type of squad of big bruising players, which Ireland does not have, I only see about 8 payers going as set out below..I think the Welsh will have 20 the english 10/12 and the scots 4
Healy - Midweek
Best - test starter
POC - Midweek/test bench
SOB - Midweek/ test bench!!
Reddan - Midweek (Gats wanted him to tour when still a Wasp??)
Sexton - Midweek
Bowe - Test Starter
Kearney - Midweek (not in test squad as Gats will start Priestland at FH and need Halfpenny at FB as his Kicker, and Rob not versatile enough for bench)

How does that sound

On current form, I'd be astounded if Healy, Sexton and Kearney got no further than midweek. There should be a decent chance of all three making the starting fifteen.

profitius

desertcircus wrote: »

On current form, I'd be astounded if Healy, Sexton and Kearney got no further than midweek. There should be a decent chance of all three making the starting fifteen.

I think Halfpenny will start especially if Gatland wants to play the Welsh way. Ben Foden is also in the mix.

If the Lions were playing SA then Kearney would be the best option. While I think people overrated some of the Welsh players the one underrated player IMO is Halfpenny.

Fishooks12

desertcircus wrote: »

On current form, I'd be astounded if Healy, Sexton and Kearney got no further than midweek. There should be a decent chance of all three making the starting fifteen.

Ah, it's good to be back.................


Healy is the best LH in the NH if not the world IMO. And if you think Sexton would not even be on the bench for the tests when he's the best OH in the NH I think you need the noggin checked

rrpc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ah, it's good to be back.................


Healy is the best LH in the NH if not the world IMO. And if you think Sexton would not even be on the bench for the tests when he's the best OH in the NH I think you need the noggin checked

There's potential there for Gatland to show Kidney up. Depending on who he chooses for half-backs and how he sets up partnerships, we could really see Sexton let loose to play his game the way he really can.

Of course by that time, Kidney could be gone from the Ireland set up, so a moot point.

.ak

rrpc wrote: »

There's potential there for Gatland to show Kidney up. Depending on who he chooses for half-backs and how he sets up partnerships, we could really see Sexton let loose to play his game the way he really can.

Of course by that time, Kidney could be gone from the Ireland set up, so a moot point.

He'd still be showing him up, regardless of where he works after the 6N. He'd also be showing the IRFU up.

"Look at what I can do with your players and you can't."

... that's if he picks said players.

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

He'd still be showing him up, regardless of where he works after the 6N. He'd also be showing the IRFU up.

"Look at what I can do with your players and you can't."

... that's if he picks said players.

Gatland has won as many Grand Slams in five years with Wales as Ireland have in their entire history. I think it's safe to say he doesn't have anything left to prove to the IRFU of all people.

And that's two Grand Slams with completely different squads of players, btw. I'd imagine Gatland would laugh at you if you suggested he needed to prove himself over Kidney.

Clareman

I always got the impression that Gatland and Edwards were all about combinations of players and how they fit together.

IMVHO, Ross, Healy and Best could go, but with other players going so well I don't htink any of them are assured to be on the plane. PoC is probably our only definite, back row will be nightmare cause of such options available in the other countries, SoB and Ferris could go.

In the backs, Sexton, Bowe and Kearney will go, depending on how the season goes for them, I wouldn't be surprised is either Reddan or Murray were to travel. BoD will really have to pull out an amazing season to get on the plane.

jacothelad

Clareman wrote: »

I always got the impression that Gatland and Edwards were all about combinations of players and how they fit together.

IMVHO, Ross, Healy and Best could go, but with other players going so well I don't htink any of them are assured to be on the plane. PoC is probably our only definite, back row will be nightmare cause of such options available in the other countries, SoB and Ferris could go.

In the backs, Sexton, Bowe and Kearney will go, depending on how the season goes for them, I wouldn't be surprised is either Reddan or Murray were to travel. BoD will really have to pull out an amazing season to get on the plane.

I don't think Ross has even a remote chance of going. Adam Jones and Dan Cole are better players. Corbisiero can play both sides of the scrum though is better at 1. Corbs, Jenkins and Healy will make up the 5 I think will go.

liammur

The Lions will win the series, Aus by far the weakest of the tri-nations. I'd say 3 Irish will make the test team.

Podge_irl

I'd rate Best and Healy more definite to travel then POC.

Short of a cataclysmic loss of form, Healy, Best, POC, Sexton and Kearney are all guaranteed to be on the plane. Whether they're starters or not is a different question of course and I don't think any of them are definites, though Best is most likely as he's in the position that's weakest.

Clareman

Is it 22 or 23 day squads for the Lions? How many players will be in the squad does anyone know? I expect the Lions to win the test series, Gatland has to point to prove down under and will have learnt a lot from being down there this summer.