How many Irish would make a Lions Team/Squad right now?

doomed

Before the start of the 6 nations we would have been thinking ahead to a bumper Irish representation for the next Lions Tour with even the possibility of Declan Kidney coaching it.

On the basis of the 6 nations, how would we do? IMO, not very well.
For the sake of convenience lets assume that they take just 30.

Backs
Kearney (starter)
Bowe (Probable Starter - just)
Earls (not on plane)
D'arcy (not on plane)
Trimble (not on plane)
Sexton (2nd choice)
Reddan (not on plane)
Murray (not on plane)
Healy (not on plane)
Best (Starter)
Ross (not on plane)
Court (not on plane)
O'Connell (just starts but definitely travels)
O'Callaghan (not on plane)
Ryan (not on plane)
Ferris (Probable Starter but could even lose out - to Lydiate and Croft)
O'Brien (50% chance of 2nd slot)
Heaslip (not on plane)


Don't see ROG, BOD, Fitzgerald or Wallace in the frame either.

6 or 7 in all

Tox56

Sexton would be my first choice, partly due to the very few capable tens in the NH. Priestland isn't bad but he hasn't been the same since the WC. Some of the Welsh wanted him dropped after the England game!

I would say Sexton is at least as likely as Kearney to be a starter.

You have to think Healy, Heaslip and possibly even Ross would at least be "on the plane".

If BOD is back and playing regularly he will most likely go too.

To be honest, it's too far out to know with any certainty.

Hagz

Healy and Heaslip would most definitely 'be on plane'. Provided the Lions coach's brain isn't situated in his rear.

doomed

Can't see Healy in ahead of English and Welsh props.

Given that the Welsh backrow is likely to travel as a unit does Heaslip 2012 see off both Denton and Morgan? I doubt it. Might have competition from SOB as well.

Fight_Night

That is crazy, Heaslip and Healy are definitely going to be on the plane, injury permitting. Wouldn't be surprised to see them both start.

Not positive that Best would start tbh.

TimeToShine

Warburton?

Otacon

Fight_Night wrote: »

Not positive that Best would start tbh.

Who is ahead of him?

irishbucsfan

Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Rory Best, Donncha Ryan, Paul OConnell, Stephen Ferris, Sean OBrien, Jamie Heaslip, Johnny Sexton, Keith Earls, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney would be my guess. Earls and Ryan are about 50/50, the rest are clearly good enough.

Hype710

I'd say around 10/11 Irish will make it. There will be a huge Welsh representation especially with the Welsh management ticket in charge.

Certainties are: Healy, Best, O' Connell, Ferris, Sexton, Bowe, Kearney.

Probables: O' Driscoll, Heaslip (I think he'll get back to good form next year and the other 8s are fairly inexperienced), O' Brien, Ross (they should take three LHs and three THs imo)

Possibles: Ryan, Strauss (the likes of Ford shouldn't go ahead of him), Murray, Earls, Fitzgerald

Bolters: Zebo, Tuohy (if selected), Jones (injury to Kearney)

Fight_Night

Otacon wrote: »

Fight_Night wrote: »

Not positive that Best would start tbh.

Who is ahead of him?

Controversial I know, but I prefer Hartley.

Edit: actually forgot strauss would be elegible, I'd go with him personally.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Currently, the only Irish lads with a decent chance of a start for the Lions are: Healy, Best, POC, Ferris, Sexton, Bowe, Kearney and BOD. In reality, only half of them will likely be starters in the test matches and an unbiased observer would likely have less involved. We are looking at a Wales dominated tour.

thomond2006

At this stage, the whole Welsh back division would go on the tour, with Phillips, Roberts and North all definite starters with Davies, Halfpenny and Cuthbert probable starters.

Hype710

thomond2006 wrote: »

At this stage, the whole Welsh back division would go on the tour, with Phillips, Roberts and North all definite starters with Davies, Halfpenny and Cuthbert probable starters.

I dunno, he hasn't really set the world alight of late. I think a Davies-Tuilagi pairing would be the most balanced.

doomed

This is all hypothetical of course but as things stand pretty near the entire Welsh team would be travelling. Leaves things very competetive thereafter. England would expect to have more forwards than us given that they humiliated our pack on Saturday. Scotland wont have many but Gray is a cert and Denton, Rennie, and Hogg must have a shout. Backrow is the most competetive area.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Hype710 wrote: »

I dunno, he hasn't really set the world alight of late. I think a Davies-Tuilagi pairing would be the most balanced.

Two 13s most balanced?

Tox56

Speaking of the backrow:

6: Croft, Lydiate, Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Robshaw

7: Warburton, Rennie

8: Morgan, Denton, Faletau, Heaslip

That will be some unit.

Hype710

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Two 13s most balanced?

Davies plays his club rugby at 12, he's been shifted to 13 for Wales so that he and Roberts can be in the side.

bleg

Tommy Bowe, Paul O Connell, Brian O Driscoll and Rory Best would all start. Maybe Ferris.

Dr.Evil

Tox56 wrote: »

Speaking of the backrow:

6: Croft, Lydiate, Ferris, Sean O'Brien, Robshaw

7: Warburton, Rennie

8: Morgan, Denton, Faletau, Heaslip

That will be some unit.

Is Robshaw not a seven, or is he a six for Harlequins?

Lot of backrows, there won't be that much space on the plane I wouldn't think..interesting to see who will lose it, always the possibility of more players emerging too. There'll be space for what, about 8 backrows?

sock puppet

Is a 30 man squad a little on the small side? If it were that small I'd definitely see Healy losing out to James or Stevens.

Hagz

sock puppet wrote: »

Is a 30 man squad a little on the small side? If it were that small I'd definitely see Healy losing out to James or Stevens.

It was 37 for the SA tour. 8 back rowers, and 5 props.

Fishooks12

Kearney Bowe Ferris Sexton Best Healy would be definite starters IMO if the team was picked tomorrow

But between now and next summer 101 things will have changed and the team could be entirely different

Hope to god Murray or some other 9 improves drastically. The thoughts of Phillips starting every test are pretty depressing

Hottowel

Yeah there's not much in terms of a 9 but philips is pants, hopefully someone comes through. Might be a year too soon for Derek mcgraths kid.


It's hard to see zeebo getting there because of the class in wingers like north and cuthbert more likely see Felix jones as apart from Kearny there's not many putting their hand up, what's up with lee Byrne I know he went to france but is he injured?

Fishooks12

Hottowel wrote: »

Yeah there's not much in terms of a 9 but philips is pants, hopefully someone comes through. Might be a year too soon for Derek mcgraths kid.


It's hard to see zeebo getting there because of the class in wingers like north and cuthbert more likely see Felix jones as apart from Kearny there's not many putting their hand up, what's up with lee Byrne I know he went to france but is he injured?

Try four or five

McGrath will be lucky to be getting game time for Leinster this time next year

Hagz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Try four or five

McGrath will be lucky to be getting game time for Leinster this time next year

Not really. His game-time for the 'A' side will elevate and he might get an opportunity for an appearance during the internationals. Certainly in two years he will have made a couple of appearances.

wersal gummage

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/mar/19/six-nations-2012-our-writers-verdicts

read this article this morning. just thought of it upon reading this thread. From recollection, only two of the writers have kearney in.... Most have Bowe.

Personally, I think it is deluded to think we'll have 10 or 11 lions.

Fishooks12

wersal gummage wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/mar/19/six-nations-2012-our-writers-verdicts

read this article this morning. just thought of it upon reading this thread. From recollection, only two of the writers have kearney in.... Most have Bowe.

Personally, I think it is deluded to think we'll have 10 or 11 lions.

In what sense? Because we were hammered by a frankly average English team because our scrum broke down and we're being managed by a mad man?

We could easily have an all Irish HC final in a few months, people will be singing a different tune then

Between us and Wales we have far more quality and strength in depth than England and Scotland, simple as

Benny Cake

wersal gummage wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/mar/19/six-nations-2012-our-writers-verdicts

read this article this morning. just thought of it upon reading this thread. From recollection, only two of the writers have kearney in.... Most have Bowe.

Personally, I think it is deluded to think we'll have 10 or 11 lions.

This is the gaurdians take on team of the tournament, nothing to do with Lions selection. With 37(ish) to travel we will definitely have 10 tourists. How many actually start is a different story...

wersal gummage

Fishooks12 wrote: »

In what sense? Because we were hammered by a frankly average English team because our scrum broke down and we're being managed by a mad man?

We could easily have an all Irish HC final in a few months, people will be singing a different tune then

Between us and Wales we have far more quality and strength in depth than England and Scotland, simple as

you have healy as a definite starter. wouldn't agree at all - class ball carrier but questions after the weekend, you'd have to look at some of the welsh and english props.

best and sexton are also not definite starters but will make the plane.

I think Gatland will be looking to a welsh back line. Kearney may not even be a definite starter (he should in my view).

The english and scottish back rows have performed reasonably well, and well enough to keep heaslip out of a starting position i'd imagine.

pickarooney

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Between us and Wales we have far more quality and strength in depth than England and Scotland, simple as

England basically fielded a whole new team for this 6N and still thrashed us. We've been playing virtually the same starting 15 for years. I don't see where this strength in depth is on Ireland's side. Fair enough, we might have a ton of good players who don't get a look in at international level but until they do we can't say how good they really are.

wersal gummage

Benny Cake wrote: »

This is the gaurdians take on team of the tournament, nothing to do with Lions selection. With 37(ish) to travel we will definitely have 10 tourists. How many actually start is a different story...

Yes that is more accurate. We may well have 10 from 37. Somebody earlier had said to take it as given that 30 would be on the plane - on that basis we would not have one third. Out of 37 yeah, 10 alright - I think we will have more like 3 starters though. i know 37 travel, just thought people here were discussing on the basis of 30.

wersal gummage

doomed wrote: »

For the sake of convenience lets assume that they take just 30.

^

that was the first post which started the discussion. i went on that basis in my first comment that ten lions would be deluded.

Fishooks12

wersal gummage wrote: »

you have healy as a definite starter. wouldn't agree at all - class ball carrier but questions after the weekend, you'd have to look at some of the welsh and english props.

best and sexton are also not definite starters but will make the plane.

I think Gatland will be looking to a welsh back line. Kearney may not even be a definite starter (he should in my view).

The english and scottish back rows have performed reasonably well, and well enough to keep heaslip out of a starting position i'd imagine.

Did you see any of the other games or is this all based on Healys scrummaging in a game where the entire Irish scrum was under huge pressure due to the Ross injury.

Healy destroyed a fresh Ewan Murray in the second half of the Scottish game , Murray was once championed as the best tight-head in the NH

Not to mention how destructive Healy was against the French and the Italians

Or the fact that with a fit and healthy Mike Ross and a Rory Best not coming off the back of 3 games in a row he took Dan Cole to the cleaners last year

And all that is saying nothing of his ball carrying of monster defense

He's easily the best loose head in the NH right now. If he can learn to be slightly more dynamic at scrumtime, to cater for days like Saturday, he'd make any 15 in the game

Hottowel

I hope Luke mcgath would be getting games for Leinster he's only a year or two younger than James o connor he seems to be around years.

We are really slow in Ireland to give youth a chance. Donnacha Ryan a young bolter at 29 years of age!

Hagz

pickarooney wrote: »

England basically fielded a whole new team for this 6N and still thrashed us.

The only person who won the game for England was Corbisiero and he's not a new player.

Fishooks12

Hottowel wrote: »

I hope Luke mcgath would be getting games for Leinster he's only a year or two younger than James o connor he seems to be around years.

We are really slow in Ireland to give youth a chance. Donnacha Ryan a young bolter at 29 years of age!

McGrath was awful for the 20's last weekend

A performance like that, thrown in at the deep end of a senior international game, would do him far more damage than good

He's not ready for Leinster yet nevermind Ireland

wersal gummage

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Did you see any of the other games or is this all based on Healys scrummaging in a game where the entire Irish scrum was under huge pressure due to the Ross injury.

Healy destroyed a fresh Ewan Murray in the second half of the Scottish game , Murray was once championed as the best tight-head in the NH

Not to mention how destructive Healy was against the French and the Italians

Or the fact that with a fit and healthy Mike Ross and a Rory Best not coming off the back of 3 games in a row he took Dan Cole to the cleaners last year

And all that is saying nothing of his ball carrying of monster defense

He's easily the best loose head in the NH right now. If he can learn to be slightly more dynamic at scrumtime, to cater for days like Saturday, he'd make any 15 in the game

I watched every game in fact. I'm also a leinster season ticket holder for many, many years and go to all the home and a few away games every year. I'm a massive fan of Healy. I'm simply stating that you may be looking at this from a less than objective perspective and that Gatland will look to the the
English and Welsh props - Healy may well start - I'm simply stating that I dont agree with you that he is a 'definite' starter. I also think that O'Brien for example is world class but has not been served well by Kidney's tactics and most likely will not start in a Lions team. I'd have him in ahead of Heaslip at 8 anyway - not to mention some of the scottish and english back rows - and then you still have warburton.

Hagz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

McGrath was awful for the 20's last weekend

For christ sake he wasn't awful. If he was awful then at the very least the commentators would have made reference to it. In fact the only reference the commentators made was that he put in a very assured performance. Yes his passing can be ropey, but if you put every young player under the microscope, you will easily find flaws.

It's all just over-reaction, although it will never be admitted as such. It's always been this way, a player is hyped up to the heavens and every little thing he does is examined to find a fault. It happened with Conway and it happened with Macken. People want to find ways to kill hype or prove it wrong. Luke McGrath is just 18 and he was great in the six nations that's just passed. He over-took Marmion and put in some very mature performances. It won't be accepted as such though. People will continue to tear down his passing to simply stop hype. Rest assured, he'll continue an upward climb. Nothing crazy, a similar climb to that of Conway and Macken. In two years he will have had in and around 10 senior appearances and will be bossing 'A' rugby.

Fishooks12

Hagz wrote: »

For christ sake he wasn't awful. If he was awful then at the very least the commentators would have made reference to it. In fact the only reference the commentators made was that he put in a very assured performance. Yes his passing can be ropey, but if you put every young player under the microscope, you will easily find flaws.

It's all just over-reaction, although it will never be admitted as such. It's always been this way, a player is hyped up to the heavens and every little thing he does is examined to find a fault. It happened with Conway and it happened with Macken. People want to find ways to kill hype or prove it wrong. Luke McGrath is just 18 and he was great in the six nations that's just passed. He over-took Marmion and put in some very mature performances. It won't be accepted as such though. People will continue to tear down his passing to simply stop hype. Rest assured, he'll continue an upward climb. Nothing crazy, a similar climb to that of Conway and Macken. In two years he will have had in and around 10 senior appearances and will be bossing 'A' rugby.

One of those commentators was Frankie Sheehan infairness


Look McGrath has serious potential and had a great championship but he had a stinker this weekend, his distribution was all over the shop.

I've no doubt he'll make a great Irish player someday but people suggesting he could be a lion next year is crazy

Hagz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I've no doubt he'll make a great Irish player someday but people suggesting he could be a lion next year is crazy

Well that's just ridiculous. He's not going to be an international never mind a lion in 2013.

Hottowel

Look I'm not saying he should be nailed down on the plane.

All I'm saying is that the definition of a bolter is an uncapped player making the squad for a tour.

When new Zealand had one of their tours over here about 5 years ago ISA toeva (spelling) was their bolter he hadn't had more than 5 appearances in super rugby and was 19 or less.

I just think our attitude towards giving youth a shot is very different. I appreciate the lions isn't Ireland but with gatland in charge there will be some bolters prob from wales and hopefully a scrum half

Flincher

Hottowel wrote: »

I hope Luke mcgath would be getting games for Leinster he's only a year or two younger than James o connor he seems to be around years.

We are really slow in Ireland to give youth a chance. Donnacha Ryan a young bolter at 29 years of age!

Ya but that is James O'Connor though. You'd have to be as conservative as the love child of Declan Kidney and Maggie Thatcher not to select him. Not far off the best back in the world. There isn't a team in the world that he would not walk straight into.

McGrath isn't quite at that level yet. A mixed u20 championship hardly puts him in the frame for the Lions. You never know though, Earls hadn't started a game for Munster 12 months before the last Lions tour.

I think Ireland's Lions representation could depend hugely on the success of Ireland's 6 Nations next year. The areas in which we have players vying for selection are the most competitive. For example, with Morgan, Faletau and Denton, a championship like we have just had could make it tricky enough for Heaslip to get on the plane. Same story for the likes of O'Connell and Ryan in the second row, with Wyn-Jones, Lawes, Grey, Parling, all looking for a spot, and on the wings.

There is going to be massive competition for places, and obviously playing in a winning team helps players stand out.

dougieruggie

Flincher wrote: »

Ya but that is James O'Connor though. You'd have to be as conservative as the love child of Declan Kidney and Maggie Thatcher not to select him. Not far off the best back in the world. There isn't a team in the world that he would not walk straight into.

McGrath isn't quite at that level yet. A mixed u20 championship hardly puts him in the frame for the Lions. You never know though, Earls hadn't started a game for Munster 12 months before the last Lions tour.

I think Ireland's Lions representation could depend hugely on the success of Ireland's 6 Nations next year. The areas in which we have players vying for selection are the most competitive. For example, with Morgan, Faletau and Denton, a championship like we have just had could make it tricky enough for Heaslip to get on the plane. Same story for the likes of O'Connell and Ryan in the second row, with Wyn-Jones, Lawes, Grey, Parling, all looking for a spot, and on the wings.

There is going to be massive competition for places, and obviously playing in a winning team helps players stand out.

Where is this ****e coming from? He had a brilliant 6N tournament and an average (it wasnt even bad) performancec against England. The only reason so many posters are making so much out of the English performance where he wasnt MOTM is because some are delighted to kill the hype about him. He was MOTM and a try scorer the week before and was one of the best players of the entire tournament.

No one is saying he'll make the Lions but hes by far the best under 20 playing (and hes only just turned 18 as well). I think he'll definitely be a world class scrum half.

Fishooks12

dougieruggie wrote: »

Where is this ****e coming from? He had a brilliant 6N tournament and an average (it wasnt even bad) performancec against England. The only reason so many posters are making so much out of the English performance where he wasnt MOTM is because some are delighted to kill the hype about him. He was MOTM and a try scorer the week before and was one of the best players of the entire tournament.

No one is saying he'll make the Lions but hes by far the best under 20 playing (and hes only just turned 18 as well). I think he'll definitely be a world class scrum half.

No people are saying it because it became abundantly clear that he's got a lot to work on in terms of his passing. Which was visible in the Italian and Scottish games to an extent

Chillax a bit

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I've no doubt he'll make a great Irish player someday but people suggesting he could be a lion next year is crazy

Well that's just ridiculous. He's not going to be an international never mind a lion in 2013.

He will be doing well to have beaten out Cooney by 2013. He has a long way to go to fulfill his undoubted potential. Can't see him playing for Leinster next season. In fact I'd put a lot of money against it considering hell be away with the 20s during the international period.

Unless 2 of Reddan/Boss/Cooney are injured he won't be required. The very idea of him being a Lion before 2017 is madness.

dougieruggie

Cooney is dreadful. Hopefully he'll be cut soon.

Flincher

dougieruggie wrote: »

Where is this ****e coming from? He had a brilliant 6N tournament and an average (it wasnt even bad) performancec against England. The only reason so many posters are making so much out of the English performance where he wasnt MOTM is because some are delighted to kill the hype about him. He was MOTM and a try scorer the week before and was one of the best players of the entire tournament.

No one is saying he'll make the Lions but hes by far the best under 20 playing (and hes only just turned 18 as well). I think he'll definitely be a world class scrum half.

I thought he was excellent against Scotland, and he took the try really well. He was poor against England, and he was fine against France. One excellent, one poor, and one ok display is mixed. As far as I know, he came off the bench in the other games.

They are the only times I've seen him play. I just made a comment that a mixed u20 Championship would not put him in the frame for the Lions (nor would a very good one for that matter, no player gets picked for the Lions on the back of an u-20 display). I don't see anything too offensive there. If you want me to say he was excellent in some games and poor in another instead that's fine.

I didn't pass any judgment as to whether he would be world class or not, and I couldn't give a flying **** what hype there is about him. If he turns out to be world class, then that is excellent for Leinster (which I'm not to pushed about) and brilliant for Ireland (which I am).

For the record, and thought Layden had a better Championship for Ireland, and fair play to you if you can watch 3 u-20 games a weekend and decide if he was one of the best in the championship.

(Jesus, I've reread that and it sounds awful sarky. Apologies. I stand by my point though)

EDIT: I've now seen your post about Cooney, who has made massive strides from the start of the season, and from what I've seen, has improved with Lansdowne as well. I retract my apology for sounding sarky :P

GerM

dougieruggie wrote: »

Cooney is dreadful. Hopefully he'll be cut soon.

Cooney's performances at U20 level were notably better than what McGrath has shown this season overall. He was efficient and calm, moving the ball smoothly at every ruck. McGrath has a lot of time on his side though and will only get better. Cooney's showings at the start of the season showed just how big the gulf is between U20 or Leinster A and senior professional rugby. Incomparable standard. McGrath has a lot of work to do but thinking he'll be top class on what has been shown thus far is pointless. He only started 3 of the 5 games and there's a reason for that. His best performance was against Scotland but he was given about as much of an armchair ride as anyone could get for that match. His defence and boot are superb but the passing needs to improve a lot.

irishbucsfan

dougieruggie wrote: »

Cooney is dreadful. Hopefully he'll be cut soon.

You obviously didn't see him play for the 20s? Far better than McGrath has been.

I'd question whether hell make it in the long term but he's lightyears ahead of McGrath right now

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You obviously didn't see him play for the 20s? Far better than McGrath has been.

I'd question whether hell make it in the long term but he's lightyears ahead of McGrath right now

Tbh I think he was just saying it to give his point that McGrath is the bees nees more leverage

GerM

Flincher wrote: »

EDIT: I've now seen your post about Cooney, who has made massive strides from the start of the season, and from what I've seen, has improved with Lansdowne as well. I retract my apology for sounding sarky :P

He has. He was fired in at the deep end for Leinster going from a second year academy player to a pro contract and starting a game away to the Ospreys having never played a minute of professional rugby. Unfortunate circumstances dictated by the inclusion of both Boss and Reddan in the WC squad and POD's departure leaving Leinster with little choice. Ideally he'd have been brought through as he has been since then with 20 minute cameos to build his confidence and expose him to the pace of professional rugby gradually. In his appearances since the turn of the year he has looked far more assured.