It is announced that Ireland WILL hold referendum on EU fiscal compact treaty

dvpower

_Gawd_ wrote: »

No, you're living in a dreamland to suggest we can continue to do this indefinitely. When will people ever understand that you can't borrow your way to prosperity.

I never suggested that at all. Was it in a dream of yours?

gerryo777

dvpower wrote: »

I never suggested that at all. Was it in a dream of yours?

Be constructive dv, as I said on another thread these type of comments get us nowhere.

_Gawd_

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Who said that?

Nate

We can't borrow and borrow and borrow, spend and spend and spend.

Only consumers can spend and save real capital for real investment. Governments distort when borrowing and spend money that doesn't exist. It's a debasement of the currency and the middle class get wiped out. In turn it's why we have so many billionaires now when others are losing their homes. To understand this, you must study monetary theory. It's imperative that you understand the system. A credit expansion from the EBC creates bad investments which leads to recessions.

amacachi

donegal_road wrote: »

'Ireland in secret talks with Chinese vice president on possibility of pinning An Punt Nua to the Yen in the event of Ireland being asked to exit Euro after No vote wins in referendum'

Just a thought

Have the Chinese changed their currency in the last few hours?

Biggins wrote: »

They will probably give us three votes till they guess we get it right!

Good one. Very original as well. Has your party decided which way they'll be going?

_Gawd_ wrote: »

Go down how? So everyone is happy with government spending so long as it's not their money? Great little country we have - a bunch of useless spongers destroying any productivity a few of us have. We need to cut by billions...

There's no appetite for and overnight correction.

Richard tea

At this point in time ill be voting NO.

I do agree that we should see what we can get out of it though if passed.
There is talk of debt forgivness or a cut on the promissory notes.

My question is.... How much of a cut would you expect

1 Billion..........3 Billion..........50 Billion. What do we owe so far, 200 Billion?

stonetrower

There was an agreement already in place but the Germans broke that agreement when things were going apesh##. The rest of Europe followed and now we find ourselves in a bigger pile of apesh##. In a few years time when the pile of apes### becomes a mountain we will be stuck with it.
How much are we being asked to pay to support a yes vote and how much do we have to donate each year to support the same yes vote?
I am a lot older than most of you and I have been left with very little to survive on because of the European Union. Where were the EEC partners/allies when we needed them most? Now that they have bought/control us they want to bleed us.
A BIG NO from me and my family.

Chucky the tree

Lollers wrote: »

I'm glad the IMF are in control, so we can cut social welfare for the blind. I'm sure they would thank them, if they could see them.

So you'd have rather the IMF didn't come in and we cut the social welfare for the blind to zero?

gerryo777

Richard tea wrote: »

At this point in time ill be voting NO.

I do agree that we should see what we can get out of it though if passed.
There is talk of debt forgivness or a cut on the promissory notes.

My question is.... How much of a cut would you expect

1 Billion..........3 Billion..........50 Billion. What do we owe so far, 200 Billion?

This is the kind of thinking we need.
And all from a fine gael TD.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/that-promissory-note-could-literally-be-torn-up-3031903.html

Biggins

I honestly don't know what way I will vote till I see the wording of the question.

(I suspect that the question will of course be worded enough that it looks better for the government - but thats partly expected than not)

Anyway, I would advise ALL to not be daft and just make this about if you like the present government or not.
How you vote one way or another - WILL effect you, your family, friends and neighbours to say the least!
So decide on the question, not on the current feelings towards FG/Labour (as much as I currently dislike them) is all I would ask.

_Gawd_

amacachi wrote: »

There's no appetite for and overnight correction.

We have little choice - if you're sick, would you wait to take that medicine that is sitting on your locker? How long have we to wait? The recession is simply the market trying to re-balance itself out after government interference - it's a good thing, much like the coughing up the remaining phlegm after a flu. At this point, why would you want to expose yourself to more germs?

force eleven

dvpower wrote: »

You want to be bought off?

Beggars can't be choosers. This is a big game to some people in Europe. Everyone has their price. This will be our only opportunity maybe ever, to get this debt reduced in a meaningful way.

Lets play the game.

Nate--IRL--

_Gawd_ wrote: »

We can't borrow and borrow and borrow, spend and spend and spend.

Nobody is suggesting that we do.

_Gawd_ wrote: »

To understand this, you must study monetary theory. It's imperative that you understand the system.

Tell me what would this monetary theory you've studied say about a near-instant contraction in government spending by 30%?

Nate

ItsAWindUp

Just realised I can vote in this:D

gerryo777

More veiled threats from ze germans...

German MEP surprised at referendum
A senior German MEP has told RTÉ News he is surprised the Government has decided to call a referendum because the intergovernmental treaty "did not involve a transfer of sovereignty of the country".
Elmar Brok MEP, a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's CDU Party, said the fiscal compact "doesn't change anything".
He said it was a question of implementing the rules everyone had already - years ago - signed up to when they became members of the euro.
"I'm confident the Irish people will vote yes because this does not change anything. It's a method (so that) rules which are undersigned, which have to be fulfilled by the Treaty of Lisbon and even earlier by the Treaty of Maastricht, can be implemented."
Mr Brok said that without the solidarity from other EU countries there would have been "a big crash" in Ireland, as in other countries.
He said that as a result of the combination of austerity measures, structural changes and "growth projects," Ireland would be stronger afterwards.
When asked what would happen if Ireland rejected the Treaty he said: "If the treaty falls... it might lose credibility for Ireland, I don't know how the markets will react to it, how the interest rates will be (for Ireland to borrow)."
However Mr Brok, who was recently elected chairman of the European Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee, said that Chancellor Merkel would "trust" the Taoiseach and that the treaty would be passed.
"The Chancellor has a lot of appreciation for what the Taoiseach and the present government did, therefore she's confident this policy of success will continue and the Irish people will vote for it, and therefore she will trust the Taoiseach and that it will go well."

Nate--IRL--

Biggins wrote: »

I would like to see exactly what the text is, of what he is signing on Friday!
Any chance of that Enda, just out of curiosity?
(Not a hope - we never get to see!)

I think this is it here -- > www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

Nate

Richard tea

gerryo777 wrote: »

This is the kind of thinking we need.
And all from a fine gael TD.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/that-promissory-note-could-literally-be-torn-up-3031903.html

So 75 Billion is a good starting point.:)

Biggins

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I think this is it here -- > www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

Nate

Thats the treaty itself which will be ratified eventually later.
I would like to see what the actual text is, he's signing on Friday.
(Cheers for that link anyway)

I' the undersigned, promise to discuss etc etc...

_Gawd_

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that we do.

Tell me what would this monetary theory you've studied say about a near-instant contraction in government spending by 30%?

Nate

It would bring about some kind of resemblance to the Capitalist system we have ignored for so long, although it wouldn't be enough. The problem is the deficit, we have to cut. The U.S are going to cut by trillions over ten years but don't believe the hype - nothing is getting cut. The only real solution comes in the form of cutting 1 trillion dollars out of the federal deficit in one year. Why does cutting work? Because you're putting money back into the pockets of the consumers and not distorting the market. People will have real capital for real investment, not malinvestments.

The first thing that needs to be dramatically cut is welfare. We can cut that in half because if you've read what we're paying out (for example, money to people not even living in the country) you'd have some idea of the lunacy involved in our spending patterns.

stonetrower

padd b1975 wrote: »

If the Shinners are saying vote no, that usually tells me to vote yes.

The shinners want you to vote yes

gerryo777

Richard tea wrote: »

So 75 Billion is a good starting point.:)

We gotta start somewhere, enough of Ireland wearing sackcloth and ashes.

Is anyone going to stand up for this country or are we just going to take everything merkozy throws at us.

Nate--IRL--

Biggins wrote: »

Thats the treaty itself which will be ratified eventually later.
I would like to see what the actual text is, he's signing on Friday.
(Cheers for that link anyway)

Surely it is the treaty that gets signed by the signatory countries itself. If not that I haven't a clue what is actually signed. AFAIK ratification does not affect signing the treaty.

Nate

prinz

gerryo777 wrote: »

More veiled threats from ze germans...

When asked what would happen if Ireland rejected the Treaty he said: "If the treaty falls... it might lose credibility for Ireland, I don't know how the markets will react to it, how the interest rates will be (for Ireland to borrow)."

That's quite a threat alright. Jesus wept.

Biggins

At least we are going to get politicians calling once again to doors, to persuade you what way to vote.
Yes, I know ye are all looking forwards to that!

amacachi

_Gawd_ wrote: »

We have little choice - if you're sick, would you wait to take that medicine that is sitting on your locker? How long have we to wait? The recession is simply the market trying to re-balance itself out after government interference - it's a good thing, much like the coughing up the remaining phlegm after a flu. At this point, why would you want to expose yourself to more germs?

Well you're forgetting that the particular medicine you're talking about makes some limbs fall off.

Doc Ruby

Wait wait hold the presses

Ireland has little choice but to adopt the treaty given that ratification is a pre-condition for securing future ESM funding.

So if I get this right, the government will be forced to balance the budget if we vote no? You can sign me right up for that!

And no, getting more loans to pay for the loans to cover the loans is not a good option.

Cmere to me Enda, "Paddy" has a voice again.

Goodnight Croke Park.

gerryo777

stonetrower wrote: »

The shinners want you to vote yes

F**k what sinn fein have to say on this.

This is too important to be playing games with.

Use your head people, contact your local TD's, roar and shout and let them know what you think.

amacachi

Biggins wrote: »

At least we are going to get politicians calling one again to doors, to persuade you what way to vote.
Yes, I know ye are all looking forwards to that!

Are you a politician now?

Nate--IRL--

_Gawd_ wrote: »

It would bring about some kind of resemblance to the Capitalist system we have ignored for so long, although it wouldn't be enough. The problem is the deficit, we have to cut. The U.S are going to cut by trillions over ten years but don't believe the hype - nothing is getting cut. The only real solution comes in the form of cutting 1 trillion dollars out of the federal deficit in one year. Why does cutting work? Because you're putting money back into the pockets of the consumers and not distorting the market. People will have real capital for real investment, not malinvestments.

The first thing that needs to be dramatically cut is welfare. We can cut that in half because if you've read what we're paying out (for example, money to people not even living in the country) you'd have some idea of the lunacy involved in our spending patterns.

You didn't answer my question. What would be the effect on the Irish economy of an instant reduction in government spending by 30%

Nate

prinz

Biggins wrote: »

Thats the treaty itself which will be ratified eventually later.
I would like to see what the actual text is, he's signing on Friday.
(Cheers for that link anyway)
I' the undersigned, promise to discuss etc etc...

AFAIK he'll be signing the actual treaty. It will include a note that the treaty won't take legal effect until it has been ratified by whatever means by each coutry signing. Usually then when published it will have signed by...x.... on date.....y....., ratified on and took effect from date....z.....

Doc Ruby

humanji wrote: »

For once in your lives try and do something for the greater good.

We tried that and ended up carrying the can for Anglo. Ireland has been a superb member of the EU.

Fuck em.