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It is announced that Ireland WILL hold referendum on EU fiscal compact treaty

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    #242
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    skelliser wrote: »
    time to start buying dollars!!

    forget dollars...its all about yuan


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    #243
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    Nate

    I've answered this question on more than one occasion over several posts. What happened to America when WW2 ended and they cut massive numbers from the spending hawks? Did the economy fall flat on it's face? No, precisly the opposite happened. Spending is Keynesian drivel economics, the same economics that got us into this - why on Earth would we prolong it?


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    #244
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    amacachi wrote: »
    Careful now, War being good is a Keynes thing.

    Not once have I stated that war was good for the economy. You would know this as I have been totally anti-John Maynard from the very start. ;)
    A reason The US budget is chaotic.


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    #245
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    LOL

    Gotta love RTE Six-One news commentators sometimes!

    "Will Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh be tendering a printing contract for the "NO" campain?"

    LOL Very good! :D

    MEOWWWWWW


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    #246
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    Not once have I stated that war was good for the economy. You would know this as I have been totally anti-John Maynard from the very start. ;)
    A reason The US budget is chaotic.
    The US had massive industry ready. It was the dominant economy. We have no such advantages.
    The UK had plenty of similar advantages after WWII as well but didn't go like the US. They won the war but their economy didn't grow like the Germans managed to with their reconstruction.

    We have no competitive advantage. We'd have a worthless currency and be relying on agriculture FFS.


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    #247
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Sounds like blackmail to me...
    The choices we make have consequences. You want our creditors to continue to lend us money if we aren't willing to sign up to the terms?


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    #248
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    We tried that and ended up carrying the can for Anglo. Ireland has been a superb member of the EU.

    Fuck em.

    So we don't have to blame Bertie or FF or FG or labour or the developers or the bankers. We can blame you for not giving a f*ck about the rest of the country and voting specifically to screw over everyone else? As I said, voting should be a privilege.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    Isn't that always the way though? You can't blame people for voting in protest. If the public were given more of a say in the menial day to day running of things then they'd have no reason to vote spitefully on important stuff like this.
    But the whole point of a representative republic is that we don't have to decide on the day to day running of things.
    Voting is a privilege but it's counter productive when people only get to have a say on major referenda like this.
    But voting isn't a privilege. It's not earned, it's given to you merely for reaching a certain age. That's why it's abused. If people had to actually make an effort to earn a vote, then they'd be more likely to try and use it for a good reason other than pure spite.


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    #249
    Sephiroth_dude
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,003 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    I will be voting no :)


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    #250
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    amacachi wrote: »
    We have no competitive advantage. We'd have a worthless currency and be relying on agriculture FFS.

    Aha! Now you're catching on - but we have a way to combat this. Competing currencies.

    Why is it that individual countries compete internationally? Why not have currencies competing within countries also? The Euro will fall and you're right to point out that the Punt Nua will need some competition within Ireland. For this, Hayek proposed for example, for us to allow the dollar, yen, sterling, gold and silver and jelly babies to be used in transactions. Why? Because a central bank will not increase the credit supply causing inflation when other currencies are on the market. This does two things: it gives the people protection as they are not destined to be under the umbrella of a central bank - they may change their property into whatever currency is doing best and secondly, it raises the value of currencies as they're forced to compete.

    Lastly, we do have a competitive advantage if we roll back taxes coupled with a relaxed regulatory economy, companies and people will flock here in their hundreds of thousands bringing with them saved capital.


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    #251
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    The choices we make have consequences. You want our creditors to continue to lend us money if we aren't willing to sign up to the terms?

    So far we've drawn down about €16 billion of the €85 billion in the IMF/ECB deal.

    How much have we paid out to bondholders? How much in interest? Our 'creditors' are only giving us money to pay off the bondholders.
    Look at what's happening next month, we draw down €3.29 billion today and pay out €3.2 billion next month in promissory notes.

    You're right, the choices we make have consequences, I don't think that we're making the right choices now.....

    We have to fight our corner, no more sackcloth and ashes.


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    #252
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    humanji wrote: »
    So we don't have to blame Bertie or FF or FG or labour or the developers or the bankers. We can blame you for not giving a f*ck about the rest of the country and voting specifically to screw over everyone else?
    You can blame whoever you feel you have to, it bothers me not in the slightest. Its certainly easier than understanding the position Ireland has been placed in by its EU "partners".
    humanji wrote: »
    As I said, voting should be a privilege.
    Which is why you'll never have any political power.


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    #253
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    humanji wrote: »
    If people had to actually make an effort to earn a vote, then they'd be more likely to try and use it for a good reason other than pure spite.
    With the right decision in this case being the way you want them to vote.

    Tell us o wise philospher prince, what colour clothes shall we wear today.

    /amused


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    #254
    WhatNowForUs?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    What about them. The growth in the Irish economy was down to our tax regime, this is accepted fact among people who aren't pushing an agenda. Thats explicitly why all those big multinationals are here, without whom we'd really be up the creek without a paddle.

    Look the structural funds started to come in first and then the low taxation came in with the successive PD government involments. The sucess of the Irish Economy is not exclusive to either one of these issues and indeed not exclussive to both these issues, unfortuntitly life is not that simple. Just to make it clear I have no agenda apart from wanting to get all the facts and the ref. to be based on these rather than - i dont like the gov, or we will lose jobs sort of ****e. I do not know how I will be voting.


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    #255
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    We have to fight our corner, no more sackcloth and ashes.
    I don't understand. If we could no longer borrow money to fund services, how could we avoid sackcloth and ashes?

    Wouldn't we have much more sackcloth and ashes at least for a few years?


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    #256
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    If you've already decided how you're voting on a document you haven't seen nor know the implications of then you're a spastic, bottom-feeding cretin and nothing more.


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    #257
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    WhatNowForUs? wrote: »
    Look the structural funds started to come in first and then the low taxation came in with the successive PD government involments.
    The low taxation was there for a long time beforehand, it was called the manufacturing tax. It was reduced further which led directly to our actual real boom in the 90s which still provides good jobs to this day. Saying structural funds were responsible is complete rubbish.


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    #258
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    quietriot wrote: »
    If you've already decided how you're voting on a document you haven't seen nor know the implications of then you're a spastic, bottom-feeding cretin and nothing more.
    The document is public.


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    #259
    _Gawd_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭_Gawd_


    dvpower wrote: »
    I don't understand. If we could no longer borrow money to fund services, how could we avoid sackcloth and ashes?

    Wouldn't we have much more sackcloth and ashes at least for a few years?

    You say how would we "fund services" as if it's supposed to be this way, by default and there are no other options. It's the typical big government institution you've been indoctrinated into all your life. A bit like Atheism really...once a non-believer comes to the conclusion that there is no God, their mind and self is set free.


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    #260
    Unregistered.
    Registered Users Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Unregistered.


    Sonic the Large Cock wrote: »
    so voting Yes means a dictatorship lead by Hitler ancestors and a NO means more Free Cheese?
    /Thread.


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    #261
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    dvpower wrote: »
    The document is public.
    That makes little difference to the statement. I would imagine that the overwhelming majority of the drooling retards on here urging a "no" vote already haven't even glimpsed at the page header, let alone went through it.

    In fact, every reason I've seen for a "no" so far has had nothing to do with it.


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    #262
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    I don't understand. If we could no longer borrow money to fund services, how could we avoid sackcloth and ashes?

    Wouldn't we have much more sackcloth and ashes at least for a few years?

    Who would you loan money to?

    Someone who's up to his neck in debt and will never be able to pay it back OR someone who took the grown up attitude, restructured his debts thus enabling himself to grow financially and be well able to pay you back.


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    #263
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    quietriot wrote: »
    If you've already decided how you're voting on a document you haven't seen nor know the implications of then you're a spastic, bottom-feeding cretin and nothing more.
    The document has been out for months.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Union

    I'm voting no because I'm against Fiscal integration. Government should be kept as close to the person as possible. I'm even more against those who are talking about possible concessions we could get in return for a Yes vote. Nice to see the Irish people value our sovereignty so high.


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    #264
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    _Gawd_ wrote: »
    You say how would we "fund services" as if it's supposed to be this way, by default and there are no other options. It's the typical big government institution you've been indoctrinated into all your life.
    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Who would you loan money to?

    Someone who's up to his neck in debt and will never be able to pay it back OR someone who took the grown up attitude, restructured his debts thus enabling himself to grow financially and be well able to pay you back.

    Our funding is guaranteed under the bailout programme. Our funding is in doubt if we reject the fiscal compact.

    ESM funding is specifically contingent on accepting the fiscal compact.

    Its possible that other options would be open to us if we reject the compact, but we would be taking a leap into the unknown - something that is likely to be damaging.


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    #265
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    The document has been out for months.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Union

    I'm voting no because I'm against Fiscal integration. Government should be kept as close to the person as possible. I'm even more against those who are talking about possible concessions we could get in return for a Yes vote. Nice to see the Irish people value our sovereignty so high.
    The document could be out a year, it's irrelevant, I am satisfied that nearly all those publicly urging a no vote already haven't read it.


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    #266
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    The document has been out for months.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Union

    I'm voting no because I'm against Fiscal integration. Government should be kept as close to the person as possible. I'm even more against those who are talking about possible concessions we could get in return for a Yes vote. Nice to see the Irish people value our sovereignty so high.

    Our sovereignty started being eroded in January 1973.


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    #267
    gerryo777
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Our funding is guaranteed under the bailout programme. Our funding is in doubt if we reject the fiscal compact.

    ESM funding is specifically contingent on accepting the fiscal compact.

    Its possible that other options would be open to us if we reject the compact, but we would be taking a leap into the unknown - something that is likely to be damaging.

    If Greece continues to get funding there's zero chance of them pulling funding from us. That won't happen.

    But if you believe all the threat's coming from merkozy, I can see how you would think that way.


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    #268
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Shatter refuses to rule out second Fiscal Treaty referendum if voters say ‘no’
    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-refuses-to-rule-out-second-fiscal-treaty-referendum-if-voters-say-no-368834-Feb2012/


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    #269
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    quietriot wrote: »
    The document could be out a year, it's irrelevant, I am satisfied that nearly all those publicly urging a no vote already haven't read it.
    I'm sure the exact same could be said about others urging a yes vote.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm equally against those voting no for completely irrelevant reasons, but don't tar everyone with the same brush. I'm voting no based on my concerns for our fiscal independence which is a perfectly valid concern.


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    #270
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    The document has been out for months.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Union

    I'm voting no because I'm against Fiscal integration. Government should be kept as close to the person as possible. I'm even more against those who are talking about possible concessions we could get in return for a Yes vote. Nice to see the Irish people value our sovereignty so high.


    Why should we value our sovereignty? The only thing we've shown is that we are completely incapable of using it properly.


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    #271
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Biggins wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/shatter-refuses-to-rule-out-second-fiscal-treaty-referendum-if-voters-say-no-368834-Feb2012/

    I don't see why we should be asked again. This is an opt-in treaty so us voting no doesn't mean anything to other countries. They can continue ahead with it as normal.


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