Windows 8 Metro: The fall of windows or the best invention ever

Capt'n Midnight

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

But I think some people understand that this needs to be done sooner or later or the OS called Windows would slowly fall in marketshare cause new customers would lose interest in the same interface that caused the same reaction back when Windows 95 was released.
....

Im looking at Windows 8 as a no comprimise system that will still allow you to use desktop while devs will start moving over to the marketplace system. There probably wont be any need for a desktop in a year from W8 launch as Marketplace would be thriving and most laptops and desktops would be an all in one type.

Change for changes sake ?

Every time there are big changes in the UI you potentially alienate those people you rely on to provide support to new users. As for the touchscreen interface where all your most commonly used icons are on the desktop, it's just program manager from windows 3.0 all over again.


For typing purposes a touchscreen interface will not replace
clicking a button 1845 (morse code)
QWERTY keyboard 1878
ball based pointing device 1952

of course some would argue that the point and click interface has been around since 1610 with the invention of the flintlock

I still miss those IBM keyboards with the spring that gave tactile feedback when you pressed a key , like those electric typewriters that pulled the key away from your finger when you had pressed enough.


storm in a teacup if they
provide users with a choice of UI
or restrict the use of the touchscreen to tablet devices

fionny

Evolution is fine... but f**king up functionality for a fancy looking screen is stupid...

Capn' Midnight makes sense here.

@evolution And yes you do have to use Metro at the moment as you cannot switch it off. You call me a whinger I call me a realist who relies on windows for work and home etc.. "docking" millions of icons is as slow as that god awful ui.

@Capn you can get mechanical keyboards... gamers love them for the reasons you described.

BostonB

fionny wrote: »

... "docking" millions of icons is as slow as that god awful ui....

Except you don't have to do that. One shortcut and your to the desktop or to the app screen.

fionny

its an impracticable compromise to something we shouldnt have to do!

Its simple for MS... give the option to have w7 start menu... simples... they have the code written already so just give it back.

BostonB

You don't have to do it you can stick with Window 7. That said I think the Start menu in Windows XP was better than Vista/Windows 7. Indeed theres little wrong with XP for most people. But I don't really see the problem to be honest. Theres no more clicks in using the metro tiles, in fact I reckon theres less than using a start menu. Besides which you can simply re-install a start menu if you want.

fionny

I will be sticking with 7 until they give me the option..

and its not about the number of "clicks" its about the fact that when you need the "start menu" you get blasted out of what you were doing...

The guardian did a really good article yesterday which kinda represents how I feel and how I reckon many many many others feel:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/05/windows-8-desktop-experience?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Worth the read.

mossie

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

This is why there's two interfaces. One is for touch and consumption, other is for work and general support framework for legacy apps and interactions.

Guess you can't keep everybody happy even if you keep the new and the old...

Fine, have two interfaces but have the Metro interface as an option The vast majority of Windows users don't have touchscreen laptops / desktops and the Metro interface is essentially useless without touch. Ok you can use it but it isn't exactly a step forward.

I have touchscreen at work and I rarely use it as it slows me down, and I have no interest in touchscreen for my desktop. By all means include it for tablets. Just wonder is this a move by MS to push users towards tablet / touchscreen adoption?

Capt'n Midnight

fionny wrote: »

@Capn you can get mechanical keyboards... gamers love them for the reasons you described.

The old Model M weighed about 2Kg

and would be far from the worst weapon to have on Z day

Capt'n Midnight

mossie wrote: »

Just wonder is this a move by MS to push users towards tablet / touchscreen adoption?

How much has apple made from the ipad / iphone ?



microsoft have deep pockets , remember the xbox

The problem is getting the sweet spot for usability / desirability
something like 40% of the cost of an ipad is the physical interface
you need the software too

it may be a quality issue, you can get android on 7" tablet for less than €50 (before apple complained about the button with a square icon on it) but it's not an ipad. and cringes at the number of Windows CE tablets

IMHO for a touchscreen device the physical hardware matters a lot, a generic windows 8 device won't beat an ipad, at least not at a price that's signifigantly cheaper than an ipad to take market share from apple. Consumers who can afford an ipad will take a lot of wooing.

The thing about apple kit is that yes it's expensive, but the interface is slick and the kit just works.

BostonB

fionny wrote: »

I will be sticking with 7 until they give me the option..

and its not about the number of "clicks" its about the fact that when you need the "start menu" you get blasted out of what you were doing...

The guardian did a really good article yesterday which kinda represents how I feel and how I reckon many many many others feel:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2012/mar/05/windows-8-desktop-experience?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Worth the read.

That articles main complaint seemed to be about the metro apps. I didn't try the apps as they looked like rough beta versions with no real functionality. I wouldn't use them anyway as I'd use webmail and outlook, I'd never go near the built in apps like mail even in earlier version of Windows. Likewise the taskbar on dual monitors, I use ultramon to do all that.

I just removed all the default apps from the metro start and it picked up everything I installed. That said its only a few days old maybe I'll get really annoyed by it in a few days and un-install it. Its beta software so I wouldn't put it on my main work box, but for a home PC which is just really a media box and browsing the web it works ok.

Like I said earlier I think the metro interface feels like a work in progress, it doesn't seem well thought out. It doesn't really add anything I need anyway. Its bit like a live desktop wallpaper.

fionny

The way i see it from personal experience is its 2 operating systems in one and they just dont co-exist well.

Trojan

Original poll flawed, edited to add a middle ground option.

BostonB

Trojan wrote: »

Original poll flawed, edited to add a middle ground option.

People can't re-vote so it will remain flawed no?

Trojan

BostonB wrote: »

People can't re-vote so it will remain flawed no?

Sadly the existing results will remain flawed, yes.

But people who haven't cast a vote will be able to choose an option other than "stupid", "best idea ever" or "I would have to see it"

Dardania

For those missing their start menu, a handy alteration is to add a toolbar to the desktop taskbar - the folder is: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

This is what my desktop looks like:


I see how Microsoft are thinking, and I believe that metro is the right way to go. Just because a mouse is what we've used for years doesn't mean it's the best way to do things - maybe it is just the cheapest 2d input device available thus far. And the concept of having a desktop - attempting to try to replicate the physical "Desk Top" with a "Recycle Bin" etc...is no longer necessary now - most regular PC users understand the basics of how a PC works at this stage.
You can see that Apple are starting to think that way - look at the Mac App store, and how music is laid out in iTunes - I'd say something similar isn't far off from them.

What I am peeved about is that metro doesn't work with netbook resolution screens...although maybe this is microsoft's way of forcing netbook manufacturers to provide higher quality screens, which should be applauded. And I understand the frustration of users by not having an option to put the start menu back, but if you think about it's functions:

• start programs
• search for files
• shut down

metro does them all, and in my case, I just have to use my toolbar hack to do the programs

People are slow to change, however I guarantee that if any child who wasn't used to Windows before, but were handy with an iPad, they would jump straight in to using Metro, and probably master it quicker than we mastered the desktop back in 1995 - the concepts are more natural I reckon

fionny

Mark my Words... before windows 8 is official released there will be an option to revert to Start Menu.

Ive said it before as have others but metro is NOT practical for business users nor will it ever be practical for business users. Microsoft operate a growing ERP system and all these users will be furious if they are forced to use this thing. In the end it would cost the billions in license fee's if people began to migrate to other erp suites.

evolutionqy7

fionny wrote: »

Ive said it before as have others but metro is NOT practical for business users … if they are forced to use this thing

Here again the idea of forcing something?

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

The desktop...Its still there, You can still use it, You just missing the start button. That's it.

Just the start button. There is no time out option for the desktop app. Once you go in there you can stay there as long as you like and work like you normally would on a XP Machine, Vista or Windows 7. Its still the same desktop. Just without the start menu. Most average folks only really use it for one task and that's to shut down their PC.

There are a few ways of getting the start menu back for power users if they want it.

I mean you still got your work space. As everyone pointed out Metro isn't really for productivity, I actually haven't used it since the first day W8 came out. I ran through played with it for a couple of hours and I was back in the desktop. Installed all my apps, Pinned them to the start screen.

I can access my computer by the explorer icon right click brings up all my recent folders and my pinned folders:

Like music (even though there's no need to see the music folders as the music is managed by your music client),
Pictures can be accessed (all my pictures are in the cloud so I don't use that either),
Want to go into my computer I just click windows button + e and I'm there or you can pin that too.

The few critics that pointed out the flaws of Windows 8 is that Windows 7 user interface is still there untouched and it is. It still works the same way, operates the same, looks the same way. Just without the start button.

I want to shut down my PC I mouse over the bottom right corner, click settings and power gives me the option to shut down. Even though you already have a power button on a laptop to do that for you.

All the same functions are still there. Still easily accessible.

Most people on this thread don't understand why its missing. I don't see what's the problem with it missing as it wasn't really that useful in the first place. The only real time I ever went in there is to type in msconfig.

If you want some power user features you can still right click at the bottom left corner and get this


When Vista came out I didn't like the new start button a lot, thought XP one was a lot better, then over since I stopped using XP back when Vista came out I didn't go back to using XP at work till I realised how horrible XP was in terms of simplicity and how easy things were laid out.

Personally I don't see much use for Metro start screen on a laptop or desktop yet as maybe not all the apps are out there to make it worthy. Most of us are still using all our desktop apps.

Given time I think most apps will be rewritten to take advantage of metro and may just prove that having a screen full of buttons isn't the only way to run your apps.

fionny

I honestly think YOU are the one missing the points here. But you refuse to believe that I have entirely valid points which are echoed all over the internet.

Time will eventually tell what MS is going to do with this but I reckon they aint stupid enough to alienate people who are their bread and butter... thats right the people who pay thousands in license fee's each year...

For the record I really wanted this to be a good OS and I hope that whats underneath that ****ty interface gets a chance to shine through for us desktop users.

evolutionqy7

fionny wrote: »

I honestly think YOU are the one missing the points here

Give me the points. Help me understand what I'm missing.

Cause the only so far main clear fact we got from this thread is that Metro is for consumption and not for doing work cause most apps are designed for the desktop. Fine fair enough, I understand that. I know that myself cause I don't use the Metro interface for that exact reason.

Start button is missing. Okay its hard for some people to adjust to that, change takes time to implement. I get that, you will never keep everyone happy. Some wont see the difference, some will love it, some will absolutely hate it. Fair enough everyone has an opinion and know what they like and don't. Power users that hate it will find a way around it. The rest will be left behind unhappy.

Sorry if I'm missing something but as far as my common sense goes there is a lot more average consumers out there that buy a laptop/desktop for personal use vs. the enterprise industry where a company buys hardware, buys an OS (windows in this case) and makes it last 10 years at least and don't tell me that's not the way it is, because it is. Up until last year most business in Ireland were running Windows XP, as XP support from Microsoft is dying they upgraded to Windows 7, which I presume is going to live on that hardware they bought 10 years ago till it runs out of steam.

Now lets presume the average consumer buys a laptop every 3-5 years, you know with the abuse they get and hardware falling apart cause of the abuse, getting slow till the point it stops working. So in 10 years time that's 3 licences for Microsoft vs. 1 licence every 10 years or so.

Now this is just generalising there are obviously companies out there that do hardware and software upgrades slower or faster.

So by saying bread and butter what do you actually mean? I wont deny its a big part of Microsoft's bread and butter but its not just enterprise they have to look.

BostonB

It occurs to me why I don't miss the start bar/menu.

I generally don't use it. I have my most common apps in the task bar, and the other most common things on the desktop. I only go into the start menu for things I use only rarely. I leave my apps open all day. I rarely open and close things.

It also occurs to me over the years I've used many operating system that didn't have anything like a start menu. So it doesn't seem that odd to me not to have one. its not a culture shock for me.

G-Money

Think I will stick with Win7 myself for a while.

I tried Win8 yesterday again and it irritated me still not having the start menu there. I normally only keep a few items pinned to my taskbar and I use the Start menu for the rest. I found myself chasing around trying to find applications that I could create a shortcut to which was annoying. I found myself having to create shortcuts on the deskop then dragging them to the taskbar as there was no way to right click on them and select "create shortcut" as there was no menu to click on.

I don't mind if they keep the Metro UI, but I think keeping the start menu and just having an extra button that flips you to Metro would have been possibly better.

Metro really is only suitable for touch screen stuff like tablets and slates.

partyatmygaff

Having used Windows 8 for an extra day or two I think the main thing that's making it seem a bit odd is the lack of Windows. The whole concept of multitasking and swapping from "window" to "window" has been lost with Metro UI.

BostonB

G-Money wrote: »

...I found myself chasing around trying to find applications that I could create a shortcut to which was annoying...

Why would you do that? Win+Q gives you all the apps.

BostonB

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Having used Windows 8 for an extra day or two I think the main thing that's making it seem a bit odd is the lack of Windows. The whole concept of multitasking and swapping from "window" to "window" has been lost with Metro UI.

I don't get you. You can alt tab same as always?

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

It occurs to me why I don't miss the start bar/menu.

I generally don't use it. I have my most common apps in the task bar, and the other most common things on the desktop. I only go into the start menu for things I use only rarely. I leave my apps open all day. I rarely open and close things.

It also occurs to me over the years I've used many operating system that didn't have anything like a start menu. So it doesn't seem that odd to me not to have one. its not a culture shock for me.

I guess this is why I'm not annoyed by metro. Like the start menu, I also don't use the metro interface. I don't need to.

The ribbon UI in Explorer and lack of a Start menu and will be enough to keep me away from this one.

Dardania

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Having used Windows 8 for an extra day or two I think the main thing that's making it seem a bit odd is the lack of Windows. The whole concept of multitasking and swapping from "window" to "window" has been lost with Metro UI.

Very insightful...Microsoft Tiles anyone?!

Trojan

I'm loving Metro & Desktop on single screen laptop. Really don't like it on dual monitor workstation, pain in the proverbial.

unkel

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

Start button is missing. Okay its hard for some people to adjust to that, change takes time to implement. I get that, you will never keep everyone happy.

This free little program brings back the start button

I only see metro once when I start the PC

We will be able to switch off metro in the final version of W8 - I have no doubt about that

The Black Oil

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU

Ignore his age, I thought this was interesting. "They trying to drive me to Mac?"

:pac: