Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

meep

If we put a fraction of the energy, discussion & resources into the teaching useful subjects like maths, science & IT and maybe a modern European language, we might stand a better chance of getting ourselves out of the the mess we're in by maybe living up to our self-deluded claim that we can offer a young, well educated workforce.

Irish has some cultural significance but the insane attention & resourscing it gets is out of all proportion.

If I wanted my kids to waste they're time, energy & creativity learning Irish, I'd send them to a GaelScoil and benefit from a bonus warm fuzzy elitist feeling.

Otherwise, let me send them to a normal school, de-emphasise Irish and fill their brains with useful stuff.

PhlegmyMoses

fluorescence wrote: »

Optional: After primary level, yes.

However, teach it properly so that by the time kids enter secondary school they already have a high level. That means teaching Irish through Irish (contact with the language is so important) and having our primary teachers learn from our Scandinavian cousins about teaching languages to young children.

Make it easy and make it fun.

Scandanavian people need a second language to work. We do not. Same for the Dutch and any other country with a relatively low population who still speak their native language. If there was a necessity, we would all be better at speaking a different language. The UK is our closest comparison from a language and cultural point of view and they aren't exactly lighting up the multi-lingual world.

PhlegmyMoses

Biggins wrote: »

For example, Paypal - and this is ONLY ONE example - announced this week up to 1000 jobs will be created in Ireland.
What are they looking for even now before they expand further?

If they don't hire native speakers for CS roles then they are mental.

AngryBollix

Irish should be optional.

However, this will never happen as the irish language has been on life support in schools for years and in effect making it optional will probably kill it off for good.

Forcing a subject on students causes a lot of resentment.

Johnny Foreigner

Gaelic should be optional.
A second language should be compulsory, but of the students choice.
French or German would be of more use as a second language.
France and Germany control the EU, and they are our masters after all; now that the EU owns Ireland.

lividduck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

There are loads of jobs created for Irish speakers here. There is a huge community of people who have a vested interest in keeping Irish as a going concern. There is an argument to be made that having fluent Irish is more beneficial to an Irish person with regards to the working world than having fluent French or Spanish. Realistically, you would have to move to make a fist of utilising fluent Spanish or French and even then there's a big difference between being able to communicate and being fluent enough to work in a business.

Yes move to Paypal in Blanchardstown or Dundalk, Google in Barrow street, or Ebay in Blanchardstown, or Microsoft, or Dell......get real

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Irish should be optional.

However, this will never happen as the irish language has been on life support in schools for years and in effect making it optional will probably kill it off for good.

Forcing a subject on students causes a lot of resentment.

Up until Junior Cert, you're forced to do every subject you learn. Most people don't resent all of those, and most of them aren't useful in an immediate, practical sense, like a modern European language can be.

Fluorescence

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Scandanavian people need a second language to work. We do not. Same for the Dutch and any other country with a relatively low population who still speak their native language. If there was a necessity, we would all be better at speaking a different language. The UK is our closest comparison from a language and cultural point of view and they aren't exactly lighting up the multi-lingual world.

Knowledge of other languages makes it easier for you to learn more languages. Having our kids learn Irish from a young age makes it much easier to learn "useful" languages later. It also makes them more aware of language in general, which would vastly improve their levels of English.

Latin was once considered a staple, because even though it's a truly dead language, having knowledge of it strengthened the ability to absorb other languages. Irish, being quite different to English, is a great language to get the young brain fired up and ready to learn. After knowing Irish, the european languages will seem ridiculously easy as a result.

Besides which, there are jobs available for Irish speakers. Irish media is very much so alive and thriving.

PhlegmyMoses

lividduck wrote: »

Yes move to Paypal in Blanchardstown or Dundalk, Google in Barrow street, or Ebay in Blanchardstown, or Microsoft, or Dell......get real

Most of those are CS, I presume? They'll hire primarily native speakers with English as a second language if they are working in a language department. They will have primarily English roles that will primarily go to native English speakers.

AngryBollix

Irish will never be made optional. There are a whole host of reasons for this. Personally speaking I have nothing but resentment for the Irish language having gone through the irish education system and had a subject I hated shoved down my throat.

Making irish optional may actually force a better and more effective use f resources. At least people will be learning it for the correct reasons as opposed to being forced into it.

Surely a student should be encouraged to focus on the subject they enjoy and excel at rather than being told what they should learn because someone else thinks its a good idea.

Fluorescence

AngryBollix wrote: »

Surely a student should be encouraged to focus on the subject they enjoy and excel at rather than being told what they should learn because someone else thinks its a good idea.

Isn't that the whole point of the UK's education system, where they only take around 3 subjects to A level? I think that's a terrible idea. There needs to be some core subjects, and I think the leaving cert (while a deeply flawed system) is pretty damn good compared to the UK or the USA's education system.

AngryBollix

fluorescence wrote: »

Isn't that the whole point of the UK's education system, where they only take around 3 subjects to A level? I think that's a terrible idea. There needs to be some core subjects, and I think the leaving cert (while a deeply flawed system) is pretty damn good compared to the UK or the USA's education system.

Why is it a terrible idea?

biko

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.

AngryBollix

Yakult wrote: »

The problem is, outside of school you will rarely hear it spoken. So how can you progress your learning of it? How many of our parents ever talked Irish to you as a child?
I know a 4 year old from a Gaeltacht who can speak it better than most people I know including me.

Schools also don't encourage you to speak Irish outside of the classroom where it is thought.

also, I notice their is no Gaeltacht areas other than on the west coastline, says alot about Ireland and a certain influence.

That is probably a large part in why it wont be made optional at LC level. The fact its not widely spoken is bound to have a further negative impact.

To state the obvious, language is a means of communication. If a language does not need to be spoken then it wont be. If irish isnt taught in schools it wont be spoken. It will die out or there will be little pockets of the country where it will remain active

AngryBollix

biko wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.

Whats a westbrit school?

Fluorescence

AngryBollix wrote: »

Why is it a terrible idea?

Having a broad base of knowledge from lots of different areas sets you up better than early specialisation in my opinion.

I'm not a pedagogist but that's what makes sense to me.

AngryBollix

fluorescence wrote: »

Having a broad base of knowledge from lots of different areas sets you up better than early specialisation in my opinion.

I'm not a pedagogist but that's what makes sense to me.

But college students specialise. Surely one is an extension of the other. Students needs the obvious literacy skills, but these are taught at a very early age. The broad base of knowledge that you gain in school very quickly dissipates through lack of use.

That includes Irish in the majority of cases

Johnny Foreigner

AngryBollix wrote: »

Whats a westbrit school?

West Brit. Derogatory term used in Ireland to describe anyone who believes British (i.e. English) culture, goods or whatever to be invariably superior to their Irish.

lividduck

biko wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.[/QUOT
Could you define West Brit, I'm a working stiff, grew up in a council estate, do I count as West Brit.
Or is West Brit just a broadly insulting term used by little Irelanders with a persecution complex who still long for DeValeras view of Ireland...piss poor and dominated by priests?

Irish Steve

2 Pages and no one has yet mentioned an issue that needs to be discussed in a lot more detail than has even been mentioned, and it goes to the core of the debate on languages.

Regrettably, Irish is a minority language, and there are some schools in parts of the country that are having to cope with trying to teach children from over 20 different countries in one class, and the majority of them have poor or no English either, and we are then forcing them to learn a language that they will likely never hear outside of the school. In some cases, they don't hear English at home, because they are still using their native language.

If the child is not exposed to the language at home, and in a social environment, learning it becomes more difficult.

Are we really so arrogant as to INSIST that a 4 or 5 year old child that is already isolated by it's lack of language skills now has to spend significant time for their entire school experience learning a language that they are unlikely to learn effectively, and less likely to ever need in a work or social environment. They are already having to cope with 2 languages, their native language probably used at home by their family and close friends, English, as the de facto default language of business and the majority of social environments, and Irish, which is forced upon them.

No one in their environment is likely to be using Irish, so their ability to develop their skills is non existent. What a wonderful recommendation for a forward looking modern progressive society.

This is AH, time I stopped, before someone thinks I'm not actually serious!

The reality is that this is a far bigger issue than most recognise, and it's being constantly kicked back under the carpet because there's no way that its continuance can be justified in the modern European Union that Ireland is part of.

AngryBollix

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

West Brit. Derogatory term used in Ireland to describe anyone who believes British (i.e. English) culture, goods or whatever to be invariably superior to their Irish.

It is in some cases. The prevalence of its language being an obvious example

AngryBollix

Irish Steve wrote: »

2 Pages and no one has yet mentioned an issue that needs to be discussed in a lot more detail than has even been mentioned, and it goes to the core of the debate on languages.

Regrettably, Irish is a minority language, and there are some schools in parts of the country that are having to cope with trying to teach children from over 20 different countries in one class, and the majority of them have poor or no English either, and we are then forcing them to learn a language that they will likely never hear outside of the school. In some cases, they don't hear English at home, because they are still using their native language.

If the child is not exposed to the language at home, and in a social environment, learning it becomes more difficult.

Are we really so arrogant as to INSIST that a 4 or 5 year old child that is already isolated by it's lack of language skills now has to spend significant time for their entire school experience learning a language that they are unlikely to learn effectively, and less likely to ever need in a work or social environment. They are already having to cope with 2 languages, their native language probably used at home by their family and close friends, English, as the de facto default language of business and the majority of social environments, and Irish, which is forced upon them.

No one in their environment is likely to be using Irish, so their ability to develop their skills is non existent. What a wonderful recommendation for a forward looking modern progressive society.

This is AH, time I stopped, before someone thinks I'm not actually serious!

The reality is that this is a far bigger issue than most recognise, and it's being constantly kicked back under the carpet because there's no way that its continuance can be justified in the modern European Union that Ireland is part of.

This is eminently sensible.

Fluorescence

Irish Steve wrote: »

2 Pages and no one has yet mentioned an issue that needs to be discussed in a lot more detail than has even been mentioned, and it goes to the core of the debate on languages.

Regrettably, Irish is a minority language, and there are some schools in parts of the country that are having to cope with trying to teach children from over 20 different countries in one class, and the majority of them have poor or no English either, and we are then forcing them to learn a language that they will likely never hear outside of the school. In some cases, they don't hear English at home, because they are still using their native language.

If the child is not exposed to the language at home, and in a social environment, learning it becomes more difficult.

Are we really so arrogant as to INSIST that a 4 or 5 year old child that is already isolated by it's lack of language skills now has to spend significant time for their entire school experience learning a language that they are unlikely to learn effectively, and less likely to ever need in a work or social environment. They are already having to cope with 2 languages, their native language probably used at home by their family and close friends, English, as the de facto default language of business and the majority of social environments, and Irish, which is forced upon them.

No one in their environment is likely to be using Irish, so their ability to develop their skills is non existent. What a wonderful recommendation for a forward looking modern progressive society.

This is AH, time I stopped, before someone thinks I'm not actually serious!

The reality is that this is a far bigger issue than most recognise, and it's being constantly kicked back under the carpet because there's no way that its continuance can be justified in the modern European Union that Ireland is part of.

Em, non-Irish students have an exemption from Irish.

AngryBollix

fluorescence wrote: »

Em, non-Irish students have an exemption from Irish.

Why dont irish students get one?

woodoo

Yes.

AngryBollix

I've only just noticed this now but there's a rather unfortunate spelling error in the title.

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Why dont irish students get one?

Because all children should learn a second language from a young age to aid their knowledge of English, their ability to learn another language later on, and to generally improve their cognitive faculties.

Irish is the obvious candidate to be this language as it's already spoken by some and is to be found on all street signs and in many other public places, and of course on Irish-language tv and radio stations.

I think it should be optional for the Leaving Cert and maybe for the whole of secondary school, but definitely not in primary school.

Fluorescence

AngryBollix wrote: »

Why dont irish students get one?

Some do, due to various learning difficulties. My younger brother is exempt.

AngryBollix

The King of Moo wrote: »

Because all children should learn a second language from a young age to aid their knowledge of English, their ability to learn another language later on, and to generally improve their cognitive faculties.

Irish is the obvious candidate to be this language as it's already spoken by some and is to be found on all street signs and in many other public places, and of course on Irish-language tv and radio stations.

I think it should be optional for the Leaving Cert and maybe for the whole of secondary school, but definitely not in primary school.

Learning a second language isnt necessary. It certainly shouldnt be compulsory

Can you explain how learning irish improves your english. They are completely separate languages.

What improves your english is focussing on English isn't it?

Irish Steve

fluorescence wrote: »

Em, non-Irish students have an exemption from Irish.

In a very limited number of cases, that's true, but it's not automatic, has to be applied for, and the criteria for granting exemption are very few. A lot of non irish immigrants may well not have the information or the skills themselves to apply for the exemption.

That then raises the problem of how a school already under pressure with numbers and resources effectively uses the time that Non Irish Students have when the rest are doing Irish. The worry would be that they all still stay in the one classroom, and the "non irish" students are effectively ignored and left to their own devices while the rest are doing Irish. Not a good scenario in so many ways.