Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Wibbs

grindle wrote: »

Eh? If I thought the language practical, I'd learn it, guttural or not. But it isn't. So I don't.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything there. Someone asked why somebody called it ugly. I gave the answer.
German also sounds ugly, and Arabic too. English is uglier than Italian or French. Is this me conceding some sort of point to you?

yep.

Nobody on the 'pro-' side has acknowledged and accepted the greatest reason to make it optional.
No practical use.

I'd somewhat disagree. I would say that yes it has practical and cultural use for those Irish people who use it daily in different parts of this country, but of little practical use for the rest.

Or are you a particularly miserable soul, and want to pass that wonderful trait to the rest of us?

I think you're confusing me with the Gaelgoirs and that'sa lot of confusion going on. :pac:

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Exactly. but for some reason, that's unacceptable to a lot of people.

There tends to be a section of the "movement" that is incredibly defensive of any perceived threat to the status of the language. The won't give an inch brigade. The same thinking that alienates people.

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If you are unable to distinguish the blindingly obvious difference between someone saying, "1-2 million CLAIM to speak Irish" and "1-2 million CAN speak Irish",

then may I suggest you take some basic English lessons, before wasting your time posting crap like that above.

Hehe. Bless. Maybe you should suggest that same blindingly obvious observation to those among the nouveau gaelgoiri who are only to happy to trot out the same claim(see what I did there?) as an argument for the languages vitality?

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Hehe. Bless. Maybe you should suggest that same blindingly obvious observation to those among the nouveau gaelgoiri who are only to happy to trot out the same claim(see what I did there?) as an argument for the languages vitality?

Why don't you respond to what people actually write in their posts instead of insulting them over things they don't say?

You keep calling me "delusional" when I am only stating facts regarding the language, if you were to read the recent discourse between yourself and myself properly, you would see that word could indeed be applied to one of us and it 'aint me. If you do this again I'm not going to bother responding.

Wibbs

Nope I suggested your thinking on a point was delusional. Obviously in my humble. This does not mean I suggested you were delusional in general. So no need to take insult.

deise go deo

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope I suggested your thinking on a point was delusional. Obviously in my humble. This does not mean I suggested you were delusional in general. So no need to take insult.

How is his thinking delusional? What he said is fact, Look
http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=75611

There is is in black and white.
I think your just making a strawman out of this to suit yourself.


I don't think anyone has suggested that those figures have any bearing on reality, but thats how many people claim to speak Irish in the republic.

mloc

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't think anyone has suggested that those figures have any bearing on reality

What's the point in quoting inaccurate figures?

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

What's the point in quoting inaccurate figures?

It's not an inaccurate figure that is the number who claim to speak Irish, by virtue of the fact that it is the number who claim to speak Irish.
And it was given because someone stated inaccurately that only 40,000 claim to speak Irish. The accuracy of the claim is an issue, but it is not the issue here.

mloc

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's not an inaccurate figure that is the number who claim to speak Irish, by virtue of the fact that it is the number who claim to speak Irish.
And it was given because someone stated inaccurately that only 40,000 claim to speak Irish. The accuracy of the claim is an issue, but it is not the issue here.

Ok, I understand your point. This is the figure of the number of people who claim to speak Irish as recorded by a government census.

I am right in asserting it does not take into account the degree or fluency of Irish spoken or regularity with which it is spoken? In essence, I could tick YES if I knew how to say hello in Irish. It may be an accurate figure but it is an irrelevant one.

Arguing about it is simply a semantic distraction.

hooradiation

I was always under the impression that lying on the census was illegal or at the very least frowned upon....

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

Ok, I understand your point. This is the figure of the number of people who claim to speak Irish as recorded by a government census.

You got it.

I am right in asserting it does not take into account the degree or fluency of Irish spoken or regularity with which it is spoken? In essence, I could tick YES if I knew how to say hello in Irish. It may be an accurate figure but it is an irrelevant one.

Arguing about it is simply a semantic distraction.

WTF are you on about, nobody is arguing about it.
And yes it was a relevant one in the ongoing discussion (which you must not have read), because someone brought up, not the number who SPOKE Irish but the number who CLAIMED to speak Irish, and gave a wildly inaccurate figure for the numbers.
There seems to be a lot of people unable to follow a simple discussion around here lately. :rolleyes:

deise go deo

mloc wrote: »

Ok, I understand your point. This is the figure of the number of people who claim to speak Irish as recorded by a government census.

I am right in asserting it does not take into account the degree or fluency of Irish spoken or regularity with which it is spoken? In essence, I could tick YES if I knew how to say hello in Irish. It may be an accurate figure but it is an irrelevant one.

There is a follow up question on frequency of use.

The overall point is that if people are claiming to be able to speak Irish when they clearly do not/can not, then there must be some reason for it, the reason I would suggest is aspiration, which if nothing else shows that Irish has significence for a large segment of the population.

Wibbs

mloc wrote: »

Arguing about it is simply a semantic distraction.

Nail on head.

deise go deo wrote:

The overall point is that if people are claiming to be able to speak Irish when they clearly do not/can not, then there must be some reason for it, the reason I would suggest is aspiration, which if nothing else shows that Irish has significence for a large segment of the population.

and/or people put down what they think they should. Common enough in surveys I believe.

mloc

hooradiation wrote: »

I was always under the impression that lying on the census was illegal or at the very least frowned upon....

The questions are so vague and ill-defined, even biased, that it's possible to fill the census without lying, yet leaving a very inaccurate portrayal of a household.

conor.hogan.2

Imagine having to do a subject in school you don't like doing?

Imagine, that never ever happens in school.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Imagine having to do a subject in school you don't like doing?

Imagine, that never ever happens in school.

So the latest argument for compulsory Irish is "tough ****"?

I don't but this "not liking it" crap. If you aim to regnerate the Irish lanugage while thinking "it's not important for kids to like it and tough **** if they don't", you're not so much shooting yourself in the foot, you're jumping on a landmine.

marienbad

If we don't understand the problem how can we ever fix it ? Using faulty data or misusing data for agenda driven reasons just perpetuates the current situation where the language will be badly thought, students won't learn it and will develop a lifelong resentment towards it .

What is good about that ?

IcedOut

I was terrible at Irish in school and the teacher hated me because I never knew what she was talking about.

I was good at every other subject and got A's and B's in all of them.

By the time I went into 2nd year I knew more German than Irish :P

Kirby

If irish was made optional at secondary level, people wouldn't take it. You wouldn't get enough people to fill the class. People will generally pick languages over it like french or german. Mostly because they are new and exciting but also because they might actually come in useful in the real world.

It's a bad or good idea depending on your viewpoint. It would kill the language at an even faster rate than it is already dying.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kirby wrote: »

If irish was made optional at secondary level, people wouldn't take it. You wouldn't get enough people to fill the class. People will generally pick languages over it like french or german. Mostly because they are new and exciting but also because they might actually come in useful in the real world.

It's a bad or good idea depending on your viewpoint. It would kill the language at an even faster rate than it is already dying.

I'm not sure it would have any effect. I mean, if someone is not liking it and wanting to stop at 15, they're going to stop doing it at 17.

I really don't see how keeping Irish compulsory helps a) the reluctant or disinterested student; or b) the language itself.

Cú Giobach

I love all this talk about a life long resentment for Irish, where is it? I say in a small minority of people.

Irish has been compulsory in schools for nearly 80 years now, yet in any surveys or polls it seems around 60% of people wish to see it remain so, and the vast majority of these people must have done Irish at school.
Even a recent poll here in AH asking the question "Would you rather be a native Irish speaker or a native English one, with the other as a second language?" remained from day one at 60% saying native Irish speaker.

Now it is very doubtful that any of the people in either of those 60%'s resent the language and it is also doubtful that all in the 40% do, with a proportion just not wanting it compulsory or as a first language, so it seems people who actually resent the language are quite a small minority, with the rest of the population having positive feelings towards it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I love all this talk about a life long resentment for Irish, where is it? I say in a small minority of people.

Irish has been compulsory in schools for nearly 80 years now, yet in any surveys or polls it seems around 60% of people wish to see it remain so, and the vast majority of these people must have done Irish at school.
Even a recent poll here in AH asking the question "Would you rather be a native Irish speaker or a native English one, with the other as a second language?" remained from day one at 60% saying native Irish speaker.

Now it is very doubtful that any of the people in either of those 60%'s resent the language and it is also doubtful that all in the 40% do, with a proportion just not wanting it compulsory or as a first language, so it seems people who actually resent the language are quite a small minority, with the rest of the population having positive feelings towards it.

I'd be representative of the people you're talkign about there: resented it at the time, not so much now, would certainly hate to see ti die out.

But don't flatter yourself: coduct a similar survey among 14 and 15 year olds. That's the future of the language. They want to take it? Then what's the problem!? No-one's stopping them. They don't want to take it? Your statistics for adults then mean nothing. You don't care one way or other how they feel? Either admit to being happy with the status quo or tell me how being condescending and disresepctful to a nation of your best chances of rivign the langauge helps.

At the end of the day, it's not an anti-Irish argument, it's a pro-freedom pro-choice one.

marienbad

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I love all this talk about a life long resentment for Irish, where is it? I say in a small minority of people.

Irish has been compulsory in schools for nearly 80 years now, yet in any surveys or polls it seems around 60% of people wish to see it remain so, and the vast majority of these people must have done Irish at school.
Even a recent poll here in AH asking the question "Would you rather be a native Irish speaker or a native English one, with the other as a second language?" remained from day one at 60% saying native Irish speaker.

Now it is very doubtful that any of the people in either of those 60%'s resent the language and it is also doubtful that all in the 40% do, with a proportion just not wanting it compulsory or as a first language, so it seems people who actually resent the language are quite a small minority, with the rest of the population having positive feelings towards it.

One can love the language and wish to speak it and still hate compulsion. It is not a life long resentment of Irish that is the problem , it is a lifelong resentment of the things done in the name of Irish.

That poll you present is not really that germane to the issue of compulsion.

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'd be representative of the people you're talkign about there: resented it at the time, not so much now, would certainly hate to see ti die out.

But don't flatter yourself: coduct a similar survey among 14 and 15 year olds. That's the future of the language. They want to take it? Then what's the problem!? No-one's stopping them. They don't want to take it? Your statistics for adults then mean nothing. You don't care one way or other how they feel? Either admit to being happy with the status quo or tell me how being condescending and disresepctful to a nation of your best chances of rivign the langauge helps.

At the end of the day, it's not an anti-Irish argument, it's a pro-freedom pro-choice one.

You do realise kids grow up to be adults. I resented Irish at school along with most of my contemporaries, now we are the adults in the surveys.

As people grow up their attitudes change, adults all know this, and since we all went through the same thing the kids of today are going through we know a childhood resentment of the language does not necessarily carry on to adulthood.
In fact many many people wish they had taken more care about learning Irish when they had the chance.

Cú Giobach

marienbad wrote: »

One can love the language and wish to speak it and still hate compulsion.

Many fluent and native speakers hate compulsion too.

It is not a life long resentment of Irish that is the problem , it is a lifelong resentment of the things done in the name of Irish.

Where is this resentment? Seeing as at least 60% of people wish to see compulsion remain.

That poll you present is not really that germane to the issue of compulsion.

It is valid to the point of resentment for the language which is trotted out constantly by people, but I see only a small minority resenting the language.

mloc

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Where is this resentment? Seeing as at least 60% of people wish to see compulsion remain.

60% of a boards poll which did not specifically address compulsion.

marienbad

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Many fluent and native speakers hate compulsion too.

Where is this resentment? Seeing as at least 60% of people wish to see compulsion remain.

It is valid to the point of resentment for the language which is trotted out constantly by people, but I see only a small minority resenting the language.

The issue of compulsion was not raised in that poll unless I am missing something.

Surely you most be aware that the resentment towards the language is much greater than ''a small minority'' ! That fact that that resentment is diffused across a number of issues such against poor teaching methods/useless curriculum/compulsion is immaterial as it all ends up at the door of Irish.

Most non irish speakers wish we spoke Irish , but not enough to go away and learn it . What does that tell you ?

And then we salve our conscience by forcing the next gereration to go through what we did.

A bit like the arguments used to prop up corporal punishment.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Many fluent and native speakers hate compulsion too.

Where is this resentment? Seeing as at least 60% of people wish to see compulsion remain.

It is valid to the point of resentment for the language which is trotted out constantly by people, but I see only a small minority resenting the language.

So can you please state the arument in favour of compulsion?

And also, please show me the poll that says 60% of people wish to compulsion to reamin. You can't mention a poll and and not give any reference link to it whatsoever.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If you are unable to distinguish the blindingly obvious difference between someone saying, "1-2 million CLAIM to speak Irish" and "1-2 million CAN speak Irish",
then may I suggest you take some basic English lessons, before wasting your time posting crap like that above.

It is personally insulting comments like this, which appear to go unpunished which leads to many people not participating in discussions, what happened to the charter?

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

60% of a boards poll which did not specifically address compulsion.

No it didn't, and I didn't mention it in relation to support for compulsion, but in relation to resentment for the language.

marienbad wrote: »

The issue of compulsion was not raised in that poll unless I am missing something.

See above.

Surely you most be aware that the resentment towards the language is much greater than ''a small minority'' ! That fact that that resentment is diffused across a number of issues such against poor teaching methods/useless curriculum/compulsion is immaterial as it all ends up at the door of Irish.

Please read the first post I gave stating my reasons why it is a minority who resent the language, if you want to argue those points grand, but don't just say "resentment towards the language is much greater than a small minority" because I showed clearly this cannot be true.

Most non irish speakers wish we spoke Irish , but not enough to go away and learn it . What does that tell you ?

That people prioritise other aspects of their life above Irish, including but not limited to putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their heads?
Also not learning Irish is not a sign of resentment.

And then we salve our conscience by forcing the next gereration to go through what we did.

I don't think it's your place, or that you are qualified to tell other people why they feel the way they do about something.

A bit like the arguments used to prop up corporal punishment.

You make an assumption you are not qualified to make, then base this comment on that assumption.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So can you please state the arument in favour of compulsion?

I'm not arguing for compulsion, why don't you ask someone who is.
I'm saying people don't resent the language.

And also, please show me the poll that says 60% of people wish to compulsion to reamin. You can't mention a poll and and not give any reference link to it whatsoever.

Here's one.

dr.bollocko

mod:
Cú Giobach banned for the unnecessary sniping of early today.
if you can't speak civilly without resorting to digs then do not post.
Please continue to report any posts which cross the line.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

No it didn't, and I didn't mention it in relation to support for compulsion, but in relation to resentment for the language.

I'm not arguing for compulsion, why don't you ask someone who is.
I'm saying people don't resent the language.

Here's one.

I merely asked if you could state the argment. It is the topic of the the thread, after all, and you seemed to be in the pro camp.

Interesting link. This particularly suprised me:

The age groups 15-24 and 25-34 were the most favourable towards compulsory Irish and those in the 55+ age group were the most negative.

Still no good reason though. The cultrual/heritage one is a bit of a non-starter becaue you can express your cultrue in countless other ways and even so, thee is no law saying that you have to be in any way proud or acceptable of your cultture and heritage.

The freedom to opt out should be just as important as the freedom to opt in.