Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

grindle

dr.bollocko wrote: »

mod:
Cú Giobach banned for the unnecessary sniping of early today.
if you can't speak civilly without resorting to digs then do not post.
Please continue to report any posts which cross the line.

Five more posts... Lousy. :pac:

haro124

I'm actually studying Irish for the LC and think it should not be done away with. It has undoubtedly helped me with the learning of other foreign languages and the new course with 40 percent for the oral is a huge improvement on the old system

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

haro124 wrote: »

I'm actually studying Irish for the LC and think it should not be done away with. It has undoubtedly helped me with the learning of other foreign languages and the new course with 40 percent for the oral is a huge improvement on the old system

So why do you think your fellow students, how do not feel the same need or importance, should also be forced to study it? Why not just study another language?

haro124

Only about thirty percent of my year bothered to pick foreign, languages because they are not necessary to go to college. If you gave students the choice of irish or a foreign language most would pick irish

grindle

haro124 wrote: »

Only about thirty percent of my year bothered to pick foreign, languages because they are not necessary to go to college. If you gave students the choice of irish or a foreign language most would pick irish

You didn't answer the question. Just because the majority rules doesn't mean they should (democracy is just an amorphous group-think dictatorship).
And before someone jumps in to imply I think the minority should rule, don't be stupid, read what I wrote. Freedom of choice is the exact opposite of force, whichever side wants to force whatever agenda.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

haro124 wrote: »

Only about thirty percent of my year bothered to pick foreign, languages because they are not necessary to go to college. If you gave students the choice of irish or a foreign language most would pick irish

So what about those that don't? Force them to do Irish anyway?

Wattle

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Yes all that research on people knowing more languages leading to being more intelligent are lies. (You can do Irish and a european language and another optional one if you want the more the better)

I never said don't learn additional languages but - I'll say this again - outside of tiny areas Irish has no practical use. And why confine learning to just languages? If you like Science you can study Paelontology or Zoology.

Knowing the language also leads to knowing what place names mean and countless other things embedded in our culture as it is our national language and has been for a long long time.

Fair enough I agree with you there. I travel quite a bit and like knowing the local history.

The language has also been in use by the majority of the islands inhabitants for the majority of our known history too, but letting that go because students are too lazy to do one extra subject is not the right thing to do.

The days when Irish was in use by the majority are long gone and are not coming back. I'm sure some students are lazy but myself and my fellow students could not see the point of doing Irish and still don't.

HappyBalance

David Mitchell makes some really great points of the use of Gaelic in Scotland.
Hard to argue against really...

deise go deo

There is an argument going around this thread that making Irish Optional will not damage its future. The point has been made that those who are interested in it will do it, and those who are not won't, but that since those who are not interested in it won't learn it anyway it makes no difference.

This is a disingenuous argument. If Irish were made optional, many who would otherwise have an interest in learning the language will not be able to because of the nature of timetabling in schools, the language will, if it is in an optional system, be timetabled at the same time as other subjects.
It will thus inevitably happen that students will be forced to make a choice between Irish or a subject that they need for a college course, meaning that while they would like to learn Irish, and otherwise would have, they will not have the opportunity to do so, couple this with the fact that languages are generally considered to be difficult subjects, which in a system focused exclusively on gaining points will put Irish at a disadvantage in relation to other subjects.

You may think that's perfectly fine, if people have to forego learning the language because they need another subject for college then that’s just tough cookie for the language, but it is facetious to argue that it will not have an effect on the language, and that anyone who wants to learn it will be in a position to, that is not the reality of the education system.


Also, It is a falsehood to suggest that those who are not interested in it at school not taking it as a subject will not have an effect on the language, it has been pointed out several times that plenty of people who were not interested in Irish and even had a dislike for it, later came to find an appreciation for the language after school, if they have not learned Irish in school they will not be in the same position to find an appreciation for it later on, and should they find an appreciation for it, they will not be in the same position to gain fluency in it.



NB: This is not an argument in favour of compulsion, so please, no 'The only reason to force Irish on everyone is for the sake of the Language, not the student' rants.
The post is not an argument in favour of compulsion, it is just pointing out the fallacy in the suggestion that making it optional will not negatively affect the language.

conor.hogan.2

Wattle wrote: »

The days when Irish was in use by the majority are long gone and are not coming back. I'm sure some students are lazy but myself and my fellow students could not see the point of doing Irish and still don't.

History is gone and never coming back it does not mean anything in relation to this discussion and the second part is lack of foresight (and imagination) by you and others.

HappyBalance wrote: »

David Mitchell makes some really great points of the use of Gaelic in Scotland.
Hard to argue against really...

He does make some good points, unlike this thread.

LordSutch

haro124 wrote: »

I'm actually studying Irish for the LC and think it should not be done away with. It has undoubtedly helped me with the learning of other foreign languages and the new course with 40 percent for the oral is a huge improvement on the old system

But yes, you are one of the paople I have mentioned in previous posts, you are one of the people that has a love for the Irish language & who wants to study it, and thats great. People like you who enjoy it will carry the Irish language into the future with a passion and I think that's a good thing, but for one moment think of the other pupils in your class, the ones who really don't want to be there, the ones who really dont like Irish at all, the ones who would rather be studying French, German or Spanish! People like these will take their dislike of the Irish language into the future as did their parents (because of the mandatory nature of the teaching). Make Irish optional, take out the compulsion and let the language breath, and let it be enjoyed & cherished by those who want to learn it . . .

Rant over, and goodnight )

conor.hogan.2

LordSutch wrote: »

the ones who really don't want to be there, the ones who really dont like Irish at all, the ones who would rather be studying French, German or Spanish! People like these will take their dislike of the Irish language into the future as did their parents (because of the mandatory nature of the teaching). Make Irish optional, take out the compulsion and let the language breath, and let it be enjoyed & cherished by those who want to learn it

Those students by and large don't want to be there for English, Maths, Geography etc either.

I like many others had French taught in school and the people who "hated" Irish did not turn to French (German etc) and did not learn those languages with passion.
They did not because they used Irish as an excuse, they were just lazy/bored at school.

LordSutch

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Those students by and large don't want to be there for English, Maths, Geography etc either.

I like many others had French taught in school did the people who "hated" Irish turn to French (German etc) and learn that with passion?
No they did not because they used Irish as an excuse, they were just lazy/bored at school.

But I'm not talking about the lazy ones in (post#437).

conor.hogan.2

LordSutch wrote: »

But I'm not talking about the lazy ones in (post#437).

How are French fluency or near fluency figures currently? If they have not taken a fantastic leap forward in 4 hours then they are fantastically average still.

Dropping Irish will not lead to people doing better in French, it will in fact lower their ability to learn other languages.

How are the UK doing in foreign languages lately? Bad.

(Also I said lazy/bored (lazy and or bored) because a lot of students are not lazy, just not interested in any languages or academics in general)

Eggy Baby!

At some point in every Irish person's life, they get lost in the Gaeltacht.

Knowledge of Irish may be the difference between life and death.

LordSutch

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

How are the UK doing in foreign languages lately? Bad.

I gather Welsh is doing OK, sams for Scots Gaelic, and as far as I know Irish is gaining strength up North, and its not compulsory up there!

You mention lazy pupils, and some pupils will always be lazy, but what I am saying is, that language students who opt out of Irish should then be able to opt into French, Spanish, or German. A more relaxed approace to language teaching needs to be agreed, instead of this "You must do Irish" for your whole school life, you have no option, you will be forced - right up to Leaving Cert.

Make Irish optional, I'm off to bed (again)!

conor.hogan.2

LordSutch wrote: »

I gather Welsh is doing OK, sams for Scots Gaelic, and as far as I know Irish is gaining strength up North, and its not compulsory up there!

You mention lazy pupils, and some pupils will always be lazy, but what I am saying is that language students that opt out of Irish should then be able to opt into French, Spanish, or German. A more relaxed approace to language teaching instead of this "You must do Irish" for your whole school life, you have no option, you will be forced.

Make Irish optional, I'm off to bed (again)!

Foreign languages, not local languages.


Life is about being forced to do things sometimes, letting them abandon languages whenever they want is not practical or a good thing imo.

(the history of NI and Wales is completely different (AFA language is concerned) to Irleand and that dictates why Welsh is so highly used and Irish is gaining up north) it has nothing to do with school compulsion (or not) recently.

LordSutch

Viva la 'choice' is what I'm advocating, not abandoning languages (as you put it).

conor.hogan.2

LordSutch wrote: »

Viva la 'choice' is what I'm advocating, not abandoning languages (as you put it).

I don't think that will be good, whatever about dropping Irish but dropping it and not replacing it with 1 or more languages is crazy imo.

Most students will opt out if it means they can pick easier subjects or more "practical" subjects, so the effect of abandoning them is still there.

Wattle

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

History is gone and never coming back it does not mean anything in relation to this discussion

Neither does your assertion that the vast majority of people spoke Irish two hundred years ago. How is that relevant to 2012?

and the second part is lack of foresight (and imagination) by you and others.

Lack of foresight? Do you seriously believe that at some point in the future that 90-95% of the population will be speaking Irish?

conor.hogan.2

Wattle wrote: »

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

History is gone and never coming back it does not mean anything in relation to this discussion

Neither does your assertion that the vast majority of people spoke Irish two hundred years ago. How is that relevant to 2012?

and the second part is lack of foresight (and imagination) by you and others.

Lack of foresight? Do you seriously believe that at some point in the future that 90-95% of the population will be speaking Irish?

1 - it was more than 200 years ago, but ok. It is relevent because it is the national language of this island and it has been so for all of its recorded history abandoning that means losing a lot more than just a language.

2 - no, I did not say that. Usefullness of the language does not come from it being 90% or even 20% used, see above for why and also read up on multi-lingualism and its good effects. (of course we could swap out Irish with French or any other language but that would lose the other benefits of still having our national language)

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

I gather Welsh is doing OK,

Welsh is compulsory in Wales;)

gigino

deise go deo wrote: »

Welsh is compulsory in Wales;)

Only in recent years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/434738.stm

You would have thought the extremists over there would have looked at the track record here and seen it was counter-productive.

Welh people are like Irish people in that neither are great at communicating with French , German or Chinese people in their own language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

There is an argument going around this thread that making Irish Optional will not damage its future. The point has been made that those who are interested in it will do it, and those who are not won't, but that since those who are not interested in it won't learn it anyway it makes no difference.

This is a disingenuous argument. If Irish were made optional, many who would otherwise have an interest in learning the language will not be able to because of the nature of timetabling in schools, the language will, if it is in an optional system, be timetabled at the same time as other subjects.
It will thus inevitably happen that students will be forced to make a choice between Irish or a subject that they need for a college course, meaning that while they would like to learn Irish, and otherwise would have, they will not have the opportunity to do so, couple this with the fact that languages are generally considered to be difficult subjects, which in a system focused exclusively on gaining points will put Irish at a disadvantage in relation to other subjects.

You may think that's perfectly fine, if people have to forego learning the language because they need another subject for college then that’s just tough cookie for the language, but it is facetious to argue that it will not have an effect on the language, and that anyone who wants to learn it will be in a position to, that is not the reality of the education system.


Also, It is a falsehood to suggest that those who are not interested in it at school not taking it as a subject will not have an effect on the language, it has been pointed out several times that plenty of people who were not interested in Irish and even had a dislike for it, later came to find an appreciation for the language after school, if they have not learned Irish in school they will not be in the same position to find an appreciation for it later on, and should they find an appreciation for it, they will not be in the same position to gain fluency in it.



NB: This is not an argument in favour of compulsion, so please, no 'The only reason to force Irish on everyone is for the sake of the Language, not the student' rants.
The post is not an argument in favour of compulsion, it is just pointing out the fallacy in the suggestion that making it optional will not negatively affect the language.

So have you accepted compulsion as not being evil, then?

You say "forced to make a choice" like it's a bad thing.

You say this may have a detrememntal effect on the Irish language. But how is every other subject in the dilemma not in the same danger? If he wants to do biology, but needs Irish for third level, how is biology not in danger the same way you feel Irish would be?

Again, the system serves the student, not the other way around.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So have you accepted compulsion as not being evil, then?

You say "forced to make a choice" like it's a bad thing.

You say this may have a detrememntal effect on the Irish language. But how is every other subject in the dilemma not in the same danger? If he wants to do biology, but needs Irish for third level, how is biology not in danger the same way you feel Irish would be?

Again, the system serves the student, not the other way around.

I don't think I have ever suggested that I see compulson in education as evil, if memory serves that would have been you.


As for the rest, yes that is true it would be in danger just like every other subject, but the fact remains that, contrary to what has been suggested, not everyone who wants to do Irish would be able to if it were made optional.


Again, this point is not intended as an argument in favour of compulsion, just to show that the argument that if Irish was optional everyone who wanted to do it would be able to, is not a valid one.

deise go deo

gigino wrote: »

You would have thought the extremists over there would have looked at the track record here and seen it was counter-productive.

I don't think that there is an valid evidence to support that statement. It would be fair to argue that Irish in the education system has not achieved its purpous, but I seriously doubt that you could show a causal link that shows that compulsion is responsible for that failure.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't think I have ever suggested that I see compulson in education as evil, if memory serves that would have been you.


As for the rest, yes that is true it would be in danger just like every other subject, but the fact remains that, contrary to what has been suggested, not everyone who wants to do Irish would be able to if it were made optional.


Again, this point is not intended as an argument in favour of compulsion, just to show that the argument that if Irish was optional everyone who wanted to do it would be able to, is not a valid one.

Yeah, my bad. Tis late/early.

But the point remains: timetable clashes occur, every student comes to a point where they have to choose one subject over another.

It's a bit of a dud argment, because your point was that it could result in the decline of the Irish language, but that would only be the case if large groups of pro-Irish students dropped it. Is this a realistic fear?

Also, it assumes that Irish should take precendence. Surely that's for the student to decide?

Nodin

gigino wrote: »

Only in (.......)people in their own language.

Earlier you described Irish as "ugly". Please explain.

Lady Chuckles

If you let the Irish language die, I think some of my passion for Ireland will die with it
You've got something unique and great. It would be a pity to let it slip away. I think it should be taught in a better way in order to raise, and keep, the interest for it

Iwasfrozen

Lady Chuckles wrote: »

If you let the Irish language die, I think some of my passion for Ireland will die with it
You've got something unique and great. It would be a pity to let it slip away. I think it should be taught in a better way in order to raise, and keep, the interest for it

No one wants it to die. We just don't want it mandatory in school that's all. Though if a language isn't strong enough to survive on it's own merit then it should die rather then be kept alive by huge amounts of public funds.