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Ian Paisley is in hospital...

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    #332
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,858 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    But some people rightly praise him for the peace process.

    Who praises him for the peace process? :confused:

    C'mon, give us a list of names?

    The only thing he tried to do to the peace process was to destroy it.

    A little less revisionism, a little more reality. :rolleyes:


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    #333
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Richard wrote: »
    That's not true. In recent years, he's done a lot.

    In later years, rather than be ousted from his beloved DUP he bit the bullet and became a PR passenger, he did nothing actively for the peace and he was effectively silenced by his party. Thats his real legacy, it's all there in the facts. It suited the old bigot to parade the world dressed as a peacemaker.
    Off course we will get historians who will attempt to airbrush his life but that only works on the gullible and ill-informed, like his diehard bigot supporters and Irish partitionists who would much rather bury their heads in the sand and lazily take the easy options, just like they did when Mrs Winsdor visited.
    You owe it to those who went before to honestly appraise their actions and lives, what's the point of calling yourself Irish, English, Chinese, Pakistani etc. if you don't?

    Paisley will be given his rightful pedestal on the pantheon of the world's supreme bigots and inciters of hatred by honest fact based history....and sooner than you might think.


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    #334
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    In later years, rather than be ousted from his beloved DUP he bit the bullet and became a PR passenger, he did nothing actively for the peace and he was effectively silenced by his party. Thats his real legacy, it's all there in the facts. It suited the old bigot to parade the world dressed as a peacemaker.

    I'm not here to defend Paisley, indeed you snipped most of my post where I criticised him.

    But I don't think you can call him a PR passenger, he came on board, just as McGuinness and Adams abandoned terrorism.

    I don't see a massive difference between Paisley, McGuinness and Adams - they all saw sense in the end. I just wish they'd seen it sooner.


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    #335
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    its not what he did for the peace process, its what he stopped doing ie spewing hatred. the fact that he seemed to change would have possibly influenced others to rethink their mindset

    go back in time 30 years and show this photo to people in northern Ireland
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44588000/jpg/_44588145_martin_pa_300.jpg

    or this
    http://www.irishabroad.com/CMS/Articles/Storage/1336_Images/_summaryImage/Historic-Visit-for-Paisley151107.jpg

    or any of these:

    http://www.google.ie/search?q=ian+paisley+martin+mc+guinness&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=6yE0T8KyIsS0hAeFnNzyAQ&biw=1379&bih=824&sei=7SE0T5C9JsawhAechITtAQ


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    #336
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Religion is a race now? You are losing the argument here. Ian Paisley was a person of his time. You must think Ulster has had a peaceful history or something with the way you expect people back then to have liberal views. That wasn't the case.

    3 people went about doing things differently. Martin and Gerry carried the gun and Ian used his mouth. Both stirred tensions and both caused problems. But you will probably forget about that.

    Religion isnt a race but its often a way to discriminate against people.


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    #337
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Richard wrote: »
    I'm not here to defend Paisley, indeed you snipped most of my post where I criticised him.

    But I don't think you can call him a PR passenger, he came on board, just as McGuinness and Adams abandoned terrorism.

    I don't see a massive difference between Paisley, McGuinness and Adams - they all saw sense in the end. I just wish they'd seen it sooner.

    You are starting from the wrong point in history. Paisley fought and resisted every positive move in the process. The moderates in his party, or rather, those who saw the writing on the wall gave him an ultimatum, he opted to save the party. After all the bulls**t(which resulted in needless death and suffering) his ego came first. That is the behaviour of a moral coward and deserves no praise whatsoever. Couple that with his refusal to apologise or face up to or take responsibility for his antics and you have a miserable human being.
    That ego has been massaged since by those who know that the hate and bile have not gone away and could so easily resurface....because he hasn't reformed he is potentially a destabilising force, so they remain silent......there are many who will extract a price for that, once he is gone.

    Regarding Adams and McG, they are not the same type of animal at all.


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    #338
    policarp
    Registered Users Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭policarp


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    its not what he did for the peace process, its what he stopped doing ie spewing hatred. the fact that he seemed to change would have possibly influenced others to rethink their mindset

    go back in time 30 years and show this photo to people in northern Ireland
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44588000/jpg/_44588145_martin_pa_300.jpg

    or this
    http://www.irishabroad.com/CMS/Articles/Storage/1336_Images/_summaryImage/Historic-Visit-for-Paisley151107.jpg

    or any of these:

    http://www.google.ie/search?q=ian+paisley+martin+mc+guinness&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=6yE0T8KyIsS0hAeFnNzyAQ&biw=1379&bih=824&sei=7SE0T5C9JsawhAechITtAQ

    The good old chuckle brothers. . .


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    #339
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    policarp wrote: »
    The good old chuckle brothers. . .

    For some reason i can't quite put my finger on those photos make me feel uneasy.


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    #340
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You are starting from the wrong point in history.
    Eh?
    Paisley fought and resisted every positive move in the process. The moderates in his party, or rather, those who saw the writing on the wall gave him an ultimatum, he opted to save the party. After all the bulls**t(which resulted in needless death and suffering) his ego came first. That is the behaviour of a moral coward and deserves no praise whatsoever
    I'm not praising Paisley for anything, but am acknowledging that he came to his senses eventually. I think that Paisley was the only one who could have done a deal with Sinn Fein - others couldn't have taken the DUP's sheep-like followers with them if Paisley had resigned/died before then.
    Couple that with his refusal to apologise or face up to or take responsibility for his antics and you have a miserable human being.

    I'd like him to apologise. There are many others who should apologise too. But the NI political process is proceeding quite nicely thank you very much and I'd rather have that than insisting on apologies, which could end up destabilizing things.
    That ego has been massaged since by those who know that the hate and bile have not gone away and could so easily resurface....because he hasn't reformed he is potentially a destabilising force, so they remain silent......there are many who will extract a price for that, once he is gone.

    Some hatred and bile may resurface, but he is and old man now, and is long way from his Dr No days.
    Regarding Adams and McG, they are not the same type of animal at all.
    No, Paisley did damage with his words.


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    #341
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Richard wrote: »
    No, Paisley did damage with his words.

    When I see someone write something like that they are one of two things; a diehard supporter or somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about.
    Paisley was associated with some of the most vicious people involved in the troubles, he set up 3 different organisations intent on armed action.

    Do your research and then comment. I can't bear people who just buy into the sanitised version and take the easy/lazy way out.


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    #342
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    When I see someone write something like that they are one of two things; a diehard supporter or somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about.

    I'm neither, but do go on.

    Paisley was associated with some of the most vicious people involved in the troubles, he set up 3 different organisations intent on armed action.

    We all know about Ulster Resistance. But to compare this to Adams and McGuinness, well...

    Do your research and then comment. I can't bear people who just buy into the sanitised version and take the easy/lazy way out.

    You're obviously making this personal, so I'm out. Try arguing with a Paisley supporter. I'm actually sympathetic to some of your views, Happyman. I just wish you wouldn't misrepresent mine.


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    #343
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Richard wrote: »
    But to compare this to Adams and McGuinness, well...

    We are not comparing....we are assessing the life of Ian Paisley.


    You're obviously making this personal, so I'm out. Try arguing with a Paisley supporter. I'm actually sympathetic to some of your views, Happyman. I just wish you wouldn't misrepresent mine.

    As I said you need to research who this man associated with and what he preached.
    KeithAFC has fecked off too, because he can't get away with his usual mangling of the facts.


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    #344
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    When I see someone write something like that they are one of two things; a diehard supporter or somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about.
    Paisley was associated with some of the most vicious people involved in the troubles, he set up 3 different organisations intent on armed action.

    Do your research and then comment. I can't bear people who just buy into the sanitised version and take the easy/lazy way out.

    Nothing really came of those organisations much so I'd say his point is valid. I'd say the point is that Paisley didn't really need paramilitary organisations when they had state justice forces that had a proven record of sectarianism.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #345
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    Nothing really came of those organisations much so I'd say his point is valid. I'd say the point is that Paisley didn't really need paramilitary organisations when they had state justice forces that had a proven record of sectarianism.

    That State forces didn't look too closely at what he was involved in is definetly the case.
    After the shooting of Catholic teenage barman Peter Ward, his killer Hugh McClean told the court,
    "I am terribly sorry I ever heard tell of that man Paisley or decided to follow him. I am definitely ashamed of myself to be in such a position."

    There are numerous instances of Paisley ranting and indiscriminate violence ensuing.....was he ever charged with inciting hatred? Was he hassled like a similar Catholic would have been?
    He is imo totally different from those who campaigned from a political standpoint.
    He was the embodiment of evil.


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    #346
    Irish Wolf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭Irish Wolf


    Richard wrote: »
    That's not true. In recent years, he's done a lot.

    It's just what he did earlier, particularly from the 60's to 80's that caused so many of the problems that came later.

    He really hasn't though.

    In the past he's opposed Sunningdale, the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Good Friday Agreement.

    The DUP were the only party to oppose the GFA. An astute move perhaps, by the Rev., why put in the long yards in a newly formed power sharing government, and potentailly lose face.. let the UUP be the guinnea pigs, and when they fail, and we'll be there to aggitate to help them fail, and we'll be there to pick up the votes and dictate our terms too.

    2006 - St. Andrews, throw in a clause that Sinn Fein should accept the PSNI, they'll never go for that. But they did!

    A year as first minister from 2007-2008 does not entitle the man to be exhalted as a major mover in achieving peace in Northern Ireland.

    IMO.


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    #347
    policarp
    Registered Users Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭policarp


    Irish Wolf wrote: »
    .

    2006 - St. Andrews, throw in a clause that Sinn Fein should accept the PSNI, they'll never go for that. IMO.
    Paisley is a kind of a latter day DeValera.

    Push it to the limit, so long as you have someone
    else to wipe the ****ty stick. . .


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    #348
    Price of Turnips
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭Price of Turnips


    I personally think, being a nationalist, think that Paisley and his son are not very nice people, but of course that is because i am on the other-side of the fence. He did however help catholic's during the troubles, insisting on organised housing for all of them, even though he was brushing shoulders with the same boys that burnt them out.He also was a helping hand in the Peace-Process when other Loyalist wanted nothing to do with it,including his son. But the man is on his dead bed, so some kindness must be though of him

    Heres a blast from the pass- old boy Ian and chummys get ran out of Dundalk......Go on the Town!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&feature=related

    Tip top tally hoe what bunch of roughians them Fenians are....


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    #349
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Price of Turnips wrote: »
    Heres a blast from the pass- old boy Ian and chummys get ran out of Dundalk......Go on the Town!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&feature=related.

    A video from Libya?


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    #350
    Ruralyoke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 213 ✭✭Ruralyoke


    I've heard it said (more than a couple times too) that big Ian is great crack?!

    Really. Great sense of humour and a real joker supposedly

    Find that hard to believe myself.

    Although I did sort of smile, in a for fúck sake type way, when he said that SDLP stood for: still don't like protestants :rolleyes:


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