Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

my argument is that we could field an entire IQ side from Munster or Leinster that would play better rugby than Ireland are playing. Not that are players aren't good enough, that they're not being played correctly. We're not playing the game that the players can produce week in week out.

If that is the case, then there is someone/something taking away from those teams and returning a product less than the sum of its parts when they are joined together.

A well coached side should never, ever be worth less than the sum of their parts. Ergo, Kidney isn't a good coach. Shock horror

andrewdcs

yupyup7up wrote: »

Maybe if the Leinster players (Except Kearney, who was excellent), actually played well for Ireland then we might win something. Bunch of bottlers. Johnny Sexton was so bad yesterday I'd have started Eric Elwood ahead of him.

And all this talk about Earls not being a centre, I'll tell you one thing, North wouldn't have ran over him like he was nothing. (Save the Manu Tuilagi run please).

The only Munster player that played bad was DOC. Ryan was immense when he came on. Dunno why our wingers were so flat in defence against a kicking OH. SOB is NOT a 7!!!!!!!!! Put him to 8, drop heaslip and put O'Mahoney in at 7.

"There must be more than this provincial life!!!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVovQfq7U0w

Not many people know that Beauty and the Beast was set in Limerick, about how a sultry Munster beauty went into the sinbin and found a handsome price.

vkid

I'd sack the guy on the PA before I'd sack Kidney tbh.

Dreadful. Worse than anything Kidney could ever do.

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

my argument is that we could field an entire IQ side from Munster or Leinster that would play better rugby than Ireland are playing. Not that are players aren't good enough, that they're not being played correctly. We're not playing the game that the players can produce week in week out.

If that is the case, then there is someone/something taking away from those teams and returning a product less than the sum of its parts when they are joined together.

A well coached side should never, ever be worth less than the sum of their parts. Ergo, Kidney isn't a good coach. Shock horror

I agree with your argument, but not your outcome, I think MOST international teams are less than the sum of their parts.
Can Ireland be a hell of a lot better? Yes,
Will any new coach, pick ANYONE, realistic or no, be guaren-f'ing-teed success with the players they have access to? No.

Should we therefore just stick to what we have a suck it up? No, Kidney has 4 games, I've a huge ammount of time for him and the team over the past 4 years, that time based on games like yesterday is running out. The team and coaching staff need a big air clearer today / tomorrow when they meet up. I hope/ trust they are all making eye contact with each other and we hop off France.

andrewdcs

vkid wrote: »

I'd sack the guy on the PA before I'd sack Kidney tbh.

Dreadful. Worse than anything Kidney could ever do.

Drives me mental. Music and compèreing at a rugby match... destroys anything the crowd try to do.

No problem with the odd gimmick, hand out song sheets, but jebus creebus don't talk over everyone,its just rude.

.ak

Lapin wrote: »

I hate this trend of looking for the manager/coach's head after one game.

It stems from a culture in British tabloid newspapers of calling for the resignation of various England soccer managers over the last 30 years, and has since crept into all other sports.

Wales deserved their win today, but it was only a late kick of the ball that ultimately decided the game. Had that ball not gone over the bar would this thread exist?

I doubt it.

Interestingly - Not one one person above calling for Kidney's head has suggested anyone to replace him.

FFS, there are four games left in this tournament. :mad:

No, we were woeful yesterday, FAR from our potential talent. We played lateral, boring rugby that clearly had no game plan.

The only evidential game plan (which was mentioned by Kidney after the match) was to kick the ball deep. Kick. The Ball. Deep. Hello? KICK THE BALL DEEP!? Even a 4 year old knows not to kick the ball against a team that has North, Davies, Roberts and Halfpenny on the team. They essentially had a second mobile backrow unit. Even posters here were posting along the lines of 'I hope we don't kick the ball too much' before the game started. We had the best attacking/running fly-half in the country and his game was clearly scuttled by being told to kick from hand every time he gets the ball in his own half. Idiotic, childish, and backwards thinking game plan (if any).

Having said that, I agree, there are four games left. But if it goes along the lines of - losing to France, winning at home, and then beating a n00b English team on Paddy's day I'm afraid he won't have progressed any further. He's keeping this team in the dark days. We're actually going backwards rather than forwards.

vkid

andrewdcs wrote: »

Drives me mental. Music and compèreing at a rugby match... destroys anything the crowd try to do.

No problem with the odd gimmick, hand out song sheets, but jebus creebus don't talk over everyone,its just rude.

its beyond rude. It is a sad pathetic "attempt" to create atmosphere, which for the most part kills it. Worse that he comes across as a complete muppet.
I'm not one for the razmatazz the IRFU seem intent on forcing down peoples throats in any case, but this guy takes the biscuit altogether. Do they really think people want this drivel?

andrewdcs

Oh, and before I forget, I come not to praise Caesar but to bury him.....

Our use of subs was the worst I've ever seen in the modern game.
I've often given Kidney grief for not understanding the 22 man game but even by his own sloppy standards we mugged ourselves for the last 10 minutes.

Sandwlch

yupyup7up wrote: »

And all this talk about Earls not being a centre, I'll tell you one thing, North wouldn't have ran over him like he was nothing.

Agree. Just straight through him, or swatting him to the side like a fly.

Sandwlch

Sandwlch wrote: »

Agree. Just straight through him, or swatting him to the side like a fly.

Earls would have disintegrated

MrDerp

.ak wrote: »

The only evidential game plan (which was mentioned by Kidney after the match) was to kick the ball deep. Kick. The Ball. Deep. Hello? KICK THE BALL DEEP!?

I remember the win over France in 2009 seemed to share this game plan. The difference was that we had a much better defence, and took our chances well. I brought herself to the match and she asked me: 'why do we keep kicking the ball to them when they're so fast? It's really frustrating'

Has it always been the game plan? Do we always open our 6 nations in this manner? Is it a case of Deccie saying: 'Right lads, lets play territory, soak up pressure and attack on the turnover'

When the game plan failed on Sunday, due to:
- poor competing at rucks (in midfield)
- poor defence
- kicking badly executed (into the arms of waiting 3/4s)
we had no plan B.

I was in the nosebleed seats on Sunday and I'd a bloody good view down on the pitch to watch the defence. Time and time again, during the first half, we just side-stepped gently behind the gainline and coughed up a further 5 yards in the tackle. Then, in the second half, we pretended to rush/blitz only to stop 3 yards short of contact and show the outside again, before coughing up in the tackle. I don't remember much hitting at 12/13 behind the gain line. Who was running the line? No-one seemed to be calling what was in front of them.

What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, Kidney. I wouldn't mind seeing the back of him after the 6 nations. Because he never has a plan B. Clearly Sunday's game plan was impossible without BOD. We had no-one slowing/turning over ball in midfield. McFadden was in a full second or two later than BOD would have been. It's not McFadden's fault. He's not BOD. But the coaches should have had something prepared to counteract this. Like a 7 or something.

We got ahead miraculously before half time. So Deccie decided to ignore the evidence on the pitch and play the scoreboard game. Despite the inevitability of wave after wave of Welsh attack that was clearly causing us all sorts of problems, it was plan A all the way - which was clearly failing for the 3 reasons I've outlined above.

andrewdcs

MrDerp wrote: »

When the game plan failed on Sunday, due to:
- poor competing at rucks (in midfield)
- poor defence
- kicking badly executed (into the arms of waiting 3/4s)
we had no plan B.

I was in the nosebleed seats on Sunday and I'd a bloody good view down on the pitch to watch the defence. Time and time again, during the first half, we just side-stepped gently behind the gainline and coughed up a further 5 yards in the tackle. Then, in the second half, we pretended to rush/blitz only to stop 3 yards short of contact and show the outside again, before coughing up in the tackle. I don't remember much hitting at 12/13 behind the gain line. Who was running the line? No-one seemed to be calling what was in front of them.

Agree on above, BOD marshalling the defence is a huge loss people haven't really discussed enough. Talk about backrow / whether we knew what we were doing misses the point that our defensive line is all Maginot without Field Marshall BOD.

tolosenc

MrDerp wrote: »

I remember the win over France in 2009 seemed to share this game plan. The difference was that we had a much better defence, and took our chances well.

That and the rules of the game/breakdown were different, favouring that kind of tactic. Much harder to get turned over now, so keep the ball in hand....

MrDerp

tolosenc wrote: »

That and the rules of the game/breakdown were different, favouring that kind of tactic. Much harder to get turned over now, so keep the ball in hand....

Indeed. I forgot this rather minor detail

So I guess it would be fair comment to say that our tactics on Sunday were outdated with respect to the current laws, and we didn't have the players available to effectively execute that game plan.

One wonders why people are fussing over individual selections on another thread.

I don't begrudge a bad plan A. In Deccie's mind he'll be thinking: well (1) we kicked poorly out of hand, (2) we need to be more aggressive at the breakdown and (3) I've learned something about the players on the pitch, that combination can't play this game plan. He's got a better rugby brain than me, obviously, so these facts can't have escaped him.

It's the lack of a coherent plan B, when plan A fails, that gets to me. Deccie had all this swimming around in his head before 33 minutes - when I was roaring it to the lads I was with. We got the try and Deccie decided to ignore what was in front of his eyes and keep faith in good ol' plan A.

To make matters worse, Deccie doesn't typically stack the bench with options for a new game plan, he selects players to slot in to plan A if fresh legs are needed. That's why he's so obsessed with players who can cover x amount of positions, because he's cementing his ability to stay the course.

JonnyF

the 'wisdom' of not replacing Gaffney and giving Les Kiss more of a hand in the attacking strategy was shown up yesterday. No runners giving good lines in attack and the backs were just shovelling sh1t across to the wings every time we were in possession.

Really disappointing stuff

Think they should also look at bringing in a Sports Psychologist for some of the guys who clearly are playing well within themselves

Ratzo Rizzo

Kidney has been a lucky manager but yesterday's dismal performance indicates to me that he must go. He inherited a very good team from EOS that eventually won the Grand Slam but since then they've gone backwards. The following season we messed up the relatively simple task of beating Scotland on home turf to secure the Triple Crown and Wales clinically exposed Ireland's weaknesses in the World Cup last year, a team we were apparently going to brush aside on our way to the final!
The IRFU are adept at shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to the managers job. Warren Gatland must be having a good laugh as he makes his way back to Cardiff today.

andrewdcs

JonnyF wrote: »

the 'wisdom' of not replacing Gaffney and giving Les Kiss more of a hand in the attacking strategy was shown up yesterday. No runners giving good lines in attack and the backs were just shovelling sh1t across to the wings every time we were in possession.

Really disappointing stuff

Think they should also look at bringing in a Sports Psychologist for some of the guys who clearly are playing well within themselves

when we eventually did decide to attack with ball in hand we looked decent imho, i.e of the crappy ball we kept hold of we scored a few decent tries. We didn't butcher much go forward.... just kicked it away.

Taking Kiss focus off line speed / aggression in defence may be a contributing factor though.

MungBean

JonnyF wrote: »

the 'wisdom' of not replacing Gaffney and giving Les Kiss more of a hand in the attacking strategy was shown up yesterday. No runners giving good lines in attack and the backs were just shovelling sh1t across to the wings every time we were in possession.

Really disappointing stuff

Think they should also look at bringing in a Sports Psychologist for some of the guys who clearly are playing well within themselves

But you cant run decent lines and give the wings good opportunities with slow ball. By the time the ball was with Sexton he had very limited options, no momentum and the Welsh line was in his face.

You seen the difference fast ball makes in Ireland two tries. You get momentum with big ball carriers bursting through first tackles getting over the gain line allowing the back line to organise an attack and hit with pre-rehearsed attack patterns. Or run at gaps in stretched defences.

The way beat Australia was by slowing the ball down and starving their backs of momentum. I dont think we seen anything of what Kiss has done with the attack yesterday because we were defending for most of the match. After the match I was as frustrated as everyone else and looking for heads to roll but in hindsight I dont think Kiss can take much heat for yesterday considering it was the overall plan that let Wales nullify our attack.

Didnt see much of anything yesterday except Kidney trying to eek a win over a team we knew would play the way they played. He had no intention of beating them, he just wanted to hang in there in the hope we got lucky.

totallegend

MungBean wrote: »

Didnt see much of anything yesterday except Kidney trying to eek a win over a team we knew would play the way they played. He had no intention of beating them, he just wanted to hang in there in the hope we got lucky.

I totally agree.

The problem is, we did get lucky. We were six points up with ten minutes to go and Wales down to 14 men for the stupidest yellow you'll see all year. Some people here have criticised Jonny Sexton's kicking, what about Rhys Priestland?? He couldn't hit a donkey's arse with a frying pan yesterday.

We had plenty of luck and it still wasn't enough. We should have opened Wales up after Bowe's try, but we couldn't maintain the initiative and we invited Wales to come back at us. Whether that was the call on the field or the coach's game plan, we don't know, but either way, we never tried to impose ourselves on them like we should.

jacothelad

highgiant1985 wrote: »

For those who suggest sacking him... who would you bring in to replace him?

Who is available that would be an improvement.

Ethel the Tea lady.

A successful international coach looks at the best of his available players and how they play at their clubs. Kidney simply tries to get Ireland to play the way Munster did when they were the best in Europe. When in doubt kick the ball away and defend like crazy. Instead, he should be looking at how Leinster play and getting the team to mirror them as they are now possibly the best in Europe and have been for the last 3 years.

I didn't think he was the right man for the job in the beginning and we have seen a slow motion car crash ever since. I wouldn't rush to get the knives out just yet though. Maybe yet another failure of his 'plan' will get him to revise his - shall we call it 'tactic' - of booting the hide off the ball and get the team to
a) have the best players in each position start and
b) play rugby that isn't so dull, unimaginative and losing.

Perhaps if the guy wasn't as slippery as an eel and actual spoke in facts when asked a question we might have a bit more time for him. No more of this "Well, the leds were just that you gnaw. Leds played well and what moar cud ye esk."

clsmooth

Kidney out, Lievermont in please

leonard7

kidney out after 6N

leonard7

there was a lot of talk of kidney picking a team that will secure irish qualification for the world cup as a top 8 team, however, you'd assume that he would be picking the best players and playing a style of rugby that would win a match not jsut try and contain another team...i would say he should go but i dont want the scandal involved in a mid tournie switch

twinytwo

Superbus wrote: »

Now? As in, this very evening? No.

After the 6N, maybe.


Rather knee jerk, but what'd you expect.

Hardly knee jerk... he has had more than enough chances... yesterday was for me the last straw.

I would say thing if we played well and got beaten, but to go out with the wrong team, knowing full well what the welsh were going to do, use the wrong game "plan" and once again not change anything at half time..

There are posters on this forum who would do a better job.

Quint2010

The problem for Kidney is that we are going to get beaten by twenty points on Saturday. He will then I reckon be one defeat away from losing his job. His failure to harness the vast talent at his disposal correctly makes him stand indicted

leonard7

no matter how often we ask for players to be changed if they are told to play a particular way then there will be no major improvements...this is were kidney has got it wrong

cork exile in london

writing was on the wall when i read that rog throws his eyes to heaven with fr kidney makes a speech. he really is starting to look like a bloke thats lost his way.

leeroybrown

You've gotta give Kidney (and his coaching team) until the end of the 6N then make a call. Personally, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise but I think unless we turn in some serious performances he should go. It's not because of any one loss, but because of the cumulative number of mediocre performances we've been turning out.

Most importantly because I think that Kidney is happy to play a constrained negative game plan that's effectively aimed at winning narrowly instead of "risking" playing to our players strengths and trying to dominate teams with them.

desertcircus

cork exile in london wrote: »

writing was on the wall when i read that rog throws his eyes to heaven with fr kidney makes a speech. he really is starting to look like a bloke thats lost his way.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but hasn't this been an everpresent feature of the relationship between Kidney and O'Gara?

mr socco

I hope you're listening IRFU/Declan Kidney. The paying public (without whom Irish rugby would sink like a stone) have spoken. We want a new coach. I'm sure you'll respect our wishes, as usual.

The country could do with a national team playing exciting rugby to it's full potential for once.

P.S. I would like a refund for all the money I wasted on the 2007 World Cup please..