Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

corny

I think innovative is the wrong word to use.

What i will say is that most teams in the world identify their strengths and try and play to them. Saffas, NZ, Australia, Wales, Argentina, France (on occasion) all fit the bill. We ask scrum halves with bandy legs to box kick the leather off the ball in comparison and pick a running out half to play a kicking game.

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

You've pointed out Aussie and NZ who we already know are "innovative". South Africa? Nah. Big pack, one fetcher and a halfback who determines the plays more than his fly-half. Big bosh non-passing centres and quick back-three. All in gameplan dominated by a kicking game and the setpiece. This can be their saviour or their boon. Haven't changed since even Apartheid era. Hardly innovative.
What Hook has apparently claimed is that Ireland are the least innovative in world rugby. I was merely pointing out that this was an OTT claim to make, particularly with the national sides I already listed in mind.

It was hardly worth pointing out though. Hook is always OTT but the point was about the lack of innovation with Ireland. The top teams try new things usually and it makes them harder to predict.

twinytwo

rrpc wrote: »

Les Kiss is a good defensive coach. Ireland have been very difficult to beat largely I suspect because of him and he's done good work with Leinster as well. So why were we so defensively inept on Sunday? Why was our defensive line so deep and why were we 'soaking' tackles so much that we were giving up half the pitch in seven phases of Welsh play?

Our two best performances in the last year, were with Reddan and Sexton starting, so why start Murry with Sexton? And then when Sexton was subbed, why also sub Murray?

One suspects that Kidney does not want Sexton to get quick ball so that he will have to kick it and conversely can put Reddan on the pitch with O'Gara because he knows O'Gara will kick it anyway.

This is not a criticism of any of these players, it just seems like insanity to deliberately play against a player's strengths.

But you are saying that this is the defining factor in the game... which it wasnt... regardless of weather sexton/rog has started against aus for example... out pack would still have destroyed them like they did

irishbucsfan

twinytwo wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

Les Kiss is a good defensive coach. Ireland have been very difficult to beat largely I suspect because of him and he's done good work with Leinster as well. So why were we so defensively inept on Sunday? Why was our defensive line so deep and why were we 'soaking' tackles so much that we were giving up half the pitch in seven phases of Welsh play?

Our two best performances in the last year, were with Reddan and Sexton starting, so why start Murry with Sexton? And then when Sexton was subbed, why also sub Murray?

One suspects that Kidney does not want Sexton to get quick ball so that he will have to kick it and conversely can put Reddan on the pitch with O'Gara because he knows O'Gara will kick it anyway.

This is not a criticism of any of these players, it just seems like insanity to deliberately play against a player's strengths.

But you are saying that this is the defining factor in the game... which it wasnt... regardless of weather sexton/rog has started against aus for example... out pack would still have destroyed them like they did

Sextons defense was a big part of that performance actually.

Conero

Should we replace Declan Kidney as Ireland coach, and if so, with who?

profitius

Somebody from abroad would be my choice. A top southern hemisphere coach who has got the best out of his players, who is innovative and forward thinking without forgetting the basics. Ewan McKenzie for example. Connor O'Shea would be a good choice too but he just signed a new contract with Quins. Joe Schmidt is another example.

john kinsella

Chris Patterson and Dan Parks are free agents:D

bamboozle

cant see this thread lasting long...however my shortlist would comprise

Nick Mallet
Joe Schmidt
Conor O'Shea
Michael Cheika
Graham Henry

CatFromHue

Next month will be when O Shea will have two years coaching experience. I don't think he can be considered for the Ireland job this time around.

justsomebloke

threads merged as there is no need to rehash what has already been said

Kayless

would Graham Henry not be the obvious choice? He has coached Wales, the Lions and NZ and won the world cup, that amount of experience combined with the talent we already have and the younger players coming through would be epic

MikeMacca

i think coaching the all blacks is like coaching barcelona
a dog with a mallet up his arse could do it with the pool of players at your disposal

Almaviva

Any of those who voted not to sack Kidney (not wanting to change coach in the middle of the 6N being the most common reason, rather than Kidney really being the man for the job), change your mind following todays fiasco ?

Tox56

Almaviva wrote: »

Any of those who voted not to sack Kidney (not wanting to change coach in the middle of the 6N being the most common reason, rather than Kidney really being the man for the job), change your mind following todays fiasco ?

What fiasco?

thebaz

yeaah, I'd sack him - replace him with one of

Joe Schmidt
Conor O'Shea
Michael Cheika

his reign has Ireland going nowhere IMO

Almaviva

Tox56 wrote: »

What fiasco?

The Ireland team for the French game was announced at lunchtime today. Kidney picked his original team for the Wales one.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0209/ireland.html

Tox56

Almaviva wrote: »

The Ireland team for the French game was announced at lunchtime today. Kidney picked his original team for the Wales one.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2012/0209/ireland.html

It is a dissapointment yes, but we have come to expect this, and throughtout the week it was made pretty clear there would be minimal changes.

There are poor selections, but we knew it was coming.

Almaviva

Tox56 wrote: »

There are poor selections, but we knew it was coming.

Doesn't excuse it though.


Does anyone know what it will take for him to be let go? If he hasnt already (EOS was coached out his last game or two after being told he was finished) been given the news.

Paulie on with Matt Cooper at the moment. Disappointing to hear such a great player sounding as delusional as Kidney.

Kayless

Tox56 wrote: »

What fiasco?

yeah what fiasco?

just watch the team announcement to play France you can tell from dk body language hes very uncomfortable, I don't see him lasting much longer he looks like hes in over his head the fans know, the players know and most of all he knows

just watch POC reaction when the journalist asks DK what went wrong in the Wales game...

Tox56

Almaviva wrote: »

Doesn't excuse it though.


Does anyone know what it will take for him to be let go? If he hasnt already (EOS was coached out his last game or two after being told he was finished) been given the news.

Paulie on with Matt Cooper at the moment. Disappointing to hear such a great player sounding as delusional as Kidney.

Trust me I want Kidney to leave, I think he has not performed to a satisfactory level whatsoever, but all I meant was I didn't think it warranted being called a "fiasco", but it's much of a muchness really.

maddragon

Kayless wrote: »

yeah what fiasco?

just watch the team announcement to play France you can tell from dk body language hes very uncomfortable, I don't see him lasting much longer he looks like hes in over his head the fans know, the players know and most of all he knows

just watch POC reaction when the journalist asks DK what went wrong in the Wales game...

Another teacher in over his head like Kenny, howlin and Noonan.

trackguy

Almaviva wrote: »

Paulie on with Matt Cooper at the moment. Disappointing to hear such a great player sounding as delusional as Kidney.

It's not delusional. The captain of the team isn't going to come out blasting players and management alike, nor should he.

The team needs to pull together.

The real pity is that great players - POC, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip, Sexton, Bowe, Kearney and others are utilised so poorly.

Almaviva

trackguy wrote: »

It's not delusional. The captain of the team isn't going to come out blasting players and management alike, nor should he.

Doesnt have to blast players or management. But to recognise that they played poorly in most phases of play and should never really been in the game at the end against a weakened Wales team who were better overall, would have been good to hear. Then you might believe they were recognising their weaknesses, and working on the flaws. Instead he said that they did everything except just close out the win. If he really believes that was the case, then he is delusional.
Would love to have heard ROG's view of events.

jacothelad

rrpc wrote: »

In all of this discussion, no-one seems to have mentioned the players. These guys have been playing great rugby for their provinces, winning tough matches and at times completely putting oppositions to the sword. They are not fools, they're coming from good coaching structures with excellent gameplans to execute poorly formed, turgid rubbish. Morale must be dreadfully low especially when it seems that they are not even thought worthy of a specialist backs coach.

And then individual players are getting lashed on here because they are "not performing". Well quelle surprise...

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would say the 4 most innovative teams are NZ, Oz, France and Wales. How did they get on during the WC?

I don't know how you can say Kidney has lacked novel ideas. Nothing could be further from the truth. It takes great ingenuity and a fearless disregard for reality to do some of the things he has done. What other coach would have been so inventive in the use of props and fake props? No other coach would have selected Tony Buckley as a tight head prop for years, ignoring the evidence that a blind man on a galloping horse could see. No other coach not actually resident in a rubber room would have selected Buckley as a loose head prop. Which international coach would have had the talent to hide Mike Ross behind him and then the inventiveness to bring back the once great and everyone's hero, the venerable but past it, John Hayes? Which other coach would have the courage and imagination to select a player out of form at full back, as he did with Luke Fitz, again despite the multitude of counter evidence that it was a bad idea. Surely a stroke of genius. Then taking our best winger and moving him to 13 where he can play indifferently at best. That is the sort of lateral thinking we need in Irish Rugby. It's just perfect motivation for all those actual centres who are good at it to be metaphorically kicked in the 'nads by Deccie as he signals to them that they are so bad that a winger who is crap at 13 is actually, in his opinion, better than all of them. This must make them all feel a mile high. Great stuff. Psychological innovation at it's zenith.

Then we have his creative thinking at 9. Select an awful 9 at 9 and even when he is injured parachute him in ahead of better players. When that doesn't work, bring in a kid who has no business being in the shirt to slow everything up seemingly because he plays for Munster. Then, having made that giant leap forward in thinking, he proceeds to play him with Sexton when the World and it's wife knows that Ireland play better with Reddan and he together. Brilliant stuff.

Then there is the PLAN. Get the ball and kick it away so the team can defend their way to victory. None of this attempting to play rugby lark. That's so 2012. Why do that when you can play a la Munster 2000 to 2008? Genius I tell you. Retro-innovation at it's best.

Who said innovation was not part of his psyche?

leeroybrown

trackguy wrote: »

It's not delusional. The captain of the team isn't going to come out blasting players and management alike, nor should he.

I agree in part but I'd also say that Kidney's management style actively discourages any kind of honest interaction with the media. He tries to control every minute detail of the whole setup and keeps it very much inside the camp. I'd wouldn't like to be the player who was too open with the media. It'd have been nice if Kidney and O'Connell could come out and just said that Wales out competed them at the breakdown, that they lacked intensity for large patches of the game, that they didn't press home their advantage after scoring and that they weren't tactically astute in how they used the ball at times. Of course that would be a criticism of the game plan.

If Wales had lost the game Gatland and Warburton would have been the first to come out and honestly admit that they'd let themselves down in certain aspects of the game and that it had cost them.

jacothelad

leeroybrown wrote: »

I agree in part but I'd also say that Kidney's management style actively discourages any kind of honest interaction with the media. He tries to control every minute detail of the whole setup and keeps it very much inside the camp. I'd wouldn't like to be the player who was too open with the media. It'd have been nice if Kidney and O'Connell could come out and just said that Wales out competed them at the breakdown, that they lacked intensity for large patches of the game, that they didn't press home their advantage after scoring and that they weren't tactically astute in how they used the ball at times. Of course that would be a criticism of the game plan.

If Wales had lost the game Gatland and Warburton would have been the first to come out and honestly admit that they'd let themselves down in certain aspects of the game and that it had cost them.

Yes, but now that we know Keith has been "bubbling in training" we're bound to win. That's the missing part of the game plan. Kick the ball away to Malzieu and float 'Keet' at him at high speed. You see, more innovation. Filling the players up with CO2 improves things no end. Deccie obviously has Helium - for his own personal use of course.

trackguy

leeroybrown wrote: »

I agree in part but I'd also say that Kidney's management style actively discourages any kind of honest interaction with the media. He tries to control every minute detail of the whole setup and keeps it very much inside the camp. I'd wouldn't like to be the player who was too open with the media. It'd have been nice if Kidney and O'Connell could come out and just said that Wales out competed them at the breakdown, that they lacked intensity for large patches of the game, that they didn't press home their advantage after scoring and that they weren't tactically astute in how they used the ball at times. Of course that would be a criticism of the game plan.

If Wales had lost the game Gatland and Warburton would have been the first to come out and honestly admit that they'd let themselves down in certain aspects of the game and that it had cost them.

I've heard it said that Kidney's attitude to the media is 'give them nothing.' I think that can be a good policy. It helps to build a siege atmosphere, which can be a powerful motivational weapon.

The media aren't going to help the team so the team owes them nothing. The lack of honesty with the media is simply part of the secrecy and means nothing. I'm sure the players are honest with themselves and each other.

You can be assured that the video analysis is being carried out and mistakes are being recognised.

The problem is the tactical mindest of the coach. Kidney is picking his old favourites and can't understand the modern game. Shocking really.

leeroybrown

trackguy wrote: »

I've heard it said that Kidney's attitude to the media is 'give them nothing.' I think that can be a good policy. It helps to build a siege atmosphere, which can be a powerful motivational weapon.

The media aren't going to help the team so the team owes them nothing. The lack of honesty with the media is simply part of the secrecy and means nothing. I'm sure the players are honest with themselves and each other.

There is the argument for a siege mentality alright but personally, I'd prefer a coach and team who could give their supporter's a little more respect from time to time.

whatsthecraic

I'd just get a proper backs coach to be honest.

leeroybrown

whatsthecraic wrote: »

I'd just get a proper backs coach to be honest.

It'd make limited difference if we're not showing the same commitment/intensity at the breakdown as our opponents, our back row isn't getting the ball moving, our scrum half is living off slow ball for most of the game and we're kicking away decent turnover ball on a regular basis.