Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

skregs

EmeraldNK wrote: »

Just out of interest, did anyone else notice Declan Kidney a little more put off and nervy in his post match interview than usual? He's usually very calm, even after our loss in the world cup... today his voice shook and he looked 'flustered', for lack of a better word...

Did you not hear the questions young Clare was asking him?

"Why are you so ****?"
"Are you planning on not being ****?"
"Why don't you try not being **** for a while?"

Cpt_Blackbeard

EmeraldNK wrote: »

Just out of interest, did anyone else notice Declan Kidney a little more put off and nervy in his post match interview than usual? He's usually very calm, even after our loss in the world cup... today his voice shook and he looked 'flustered', for lack of a better word...

Completely agree. He didn't look comfortable or composed at all which was really odd. Looked like there was more than just the realization that we played poorly on his mind - maybe he was questioning his own ability for the job or something.

[Jackass]

After the 6 nations he should be gracious and step down.

IRFU are the most culpable for the state of the national team than Kidney...I don't doubt he's doing his best, he's just massively incapable on just about every level. The IRFU meddling in provincial affairs will only weaken the game. There needs to be an overhaul from the very top, but then, this is a closed, privately owned boys club, we just pay their wages and mortgages, but all the power is with them, and there's nothing they love more than a yes man like Kidney or O'Sullivan.

My main concern is that the same thing doesn't happen to Kidney that happened to O'Sullivan, that a lot of bile and hatred is sent their way, these are men doing their best, I just hope Kidney does the right thing and doesn't take another season like O'Sullivan did, it's clear his tenure as coach has been an abomonation and absolute failure.

We were actually a much better side under O'Sullivan than we were under Kidney, because at least, in patches, we played some superb rugby and had some superb results.

Kidney was a passanger on the Grand Slam journey, not an orchestrator.

After this championship he should go, and the next coach should be a Southern Hemisphere coach with no provincial alligences, and given to the end of this world cup cycle to do his job, with no intervention and "save Munster, bring them all to the training squad" instructions, and let him pick his best players and not be interfered with.

Hopefully, somehow, the Lions people are equally as stupid as the IRFU people (it's a BIG hope), and Kidney can take over the Lions tour, start Zebo and Murray in the first test, and we can get back to building an Irish team.

BarackPyjama

[Jackass] wrote: »

After the 6 nations he should be gracious and step down.

IRFU are the most culpable for the state of the national team than Kidney...I don't doubt he's doing his best, he's just massively incapable on just about every level. The IRFU meddling in provincial affairs will only weaken the game. There needs to be an overhaul from the very top, but then, this is a closed, privately owned boys club, we just pay their wages and mortgages, but all the power is with them, and there's nothing they love more than a yes man like Kidney or O'Sullivan.

Completely agree. After 30 odd years, I don't really support the Irish international side anymore. All I'm doing is supporting idiots, financially, who are abusing young players.

MungBean

EmeraldNK wrote: »

Just out of interest, did anyone else notice Declan Kidney a little more put off and nervy in his post match interview than usual? He's usually very calm, even after our loss in the world cup... today his voice shook and he looked 'flustered', for lack of a better word...

He mentioned something about the breakdown and having to be ruthless no matter what the opposition were doing. Think he felt the Welsh were upto no good slowing the ball and the ref wasnt interested in stopping them. He was probably trying to stop himself saying it outright.

Last time I seen him that flustered was last year after we were done by the dodgy quick line out.

tolosenc

90 odd percent in favour of sacking. Cpt_Blackbeard accepting that Kidney may have to go, FFS. Realistically, he's going to last till the end of the tournament, but if he's still around come summer time, it's going to be horrendous.

grenache

Lapin wrote: »

I hate this trend of looking for the manager/coach's head after one game.

You take each situation on it's own merits. If you think we are looking for his head based on the results of one game, then you don't see the bigger picture. And the poor results/performances that his teams have given for the last two years. We have won 3 of the last four Heineken Cups yet our national team consistently under-performs. As has already been said, Kidney is loyal to certain individuals, no matter what their form, which is ridiculous. There is no way O Callaghan should have started that game today ahead of Ryan. Gordon D'Arcy it seems can do no wrong.

What annoys me most is that Kidney never seems to learn from mistakes. He picked the exact same back row that was mauled by Wales in the WC. Peter O Mahony has been probably the out-standing back row forward in the Heineken Cup so far, yet Declan plays it safe as usual. Playing safe has won us sweet fcuk all.

As for bringing on O Gara with 8 minutes to play, what is the point? It hardly gives the most important player on the pitch the time to warm himself up, nevermind dictate the play. A stupid decision. Either bring him on with 20 minutes to go or don't bother making a change.

Sean Kinsella

MungBean wrote: »

He mentioned something about the breakdown and having to be ruthless no matter what the opposition were doing. Think he felt the Welsh were upto no good slowing the ball and the ref wasnt interested in stopping them. He was probably trying to stop himself saying it outright.

Last time I seen him that flustered was last year after we were done by the dodgy quick line out.

Kidney is provenly insufficient.

I'd get rid anyroad and give the job to Ruddock; his Swansea teams were superb both sides of the ball (Scott Gibbs or not). It was the same story with Wales in 2005.

We've now lost 3 times in one calendar year to an admittedly very good team and it's time to intervene before the opposition begin to perceive that we can huff and puff but can't alter their mortgage on the scoreboard - the only statistic that matters, irrespective of sin-bins, wrong balls or unworkable reversions to 'traditional Irish rugby' .

I don't expect anything to change however as the IRFU would be forced to question their own judgement and concede (effectively) that the catalyst for that change was handed down by the man they removed from office in 2001 :mad:. So while Wales will compete this 6N, we'll flirt with the possibility of a brand-new timber utensil at tea-time.

bamboozle

as the add on the radio says, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. DK picked the same team that lost to wales in the WC, expect where injuries dictated otherwise, he went with the same tactics and low and behold we got beaten, albeit marginally on the scoreboard but wales were playing a far superior brand of rugby and were well worth their victory.

the brand of rugby which DK has been succesful with is no longer sufficient for winning at the international stage, the blind loyalty to certain players where there are better, younger and more mobile options available is resulting is a stagnant and stale team that is crying out for some young blood and freshness to invigorate the squad.

Cheika, Schmidt, Mallet, O'Shea would all do a good job, ideally someone like mallet to come in with no provincial bias or baggage.

BarackPyjama

bamboozle wrote: »

where there are better, younger and more mobile options available is resulting is a stagnant and stale team that is crying out for some young blood and freshness to invigorate the squad.

Wales say "Let's give young George North a go"... Ireland say "Quick, run for cover. We must win at all costs. Baton down the hatches. Kick the ball away. Everyone on the pitch should be at least 30". And therein lies the problem.

desertcircus

I'm beginning to think the problem is less with Kidney than with the IRFU itself. At this stage I suspect they're giving the wrong orders to the coaches, particularly since it feels like we're currently watching the EOS sacking in replay. Get rid of Kidney at the end of the 6N and tell his successor that they have until the end of the 2013 tournament to experiment however they see fit.

corny

A blind man can see Kidney is out of his depth.

Its been 2 years of him getting away with poor performances punctuated by the one decent game a season he's surviving on. This is all happening while our club sides are churning out some of the finest players in the NH and Jo Schmidt is showing we can produce rugby the French would be envious of. The terrible conservatism in selection (ignoring SOB, Ross etc) only compounds the problem.

As Jackass said earlier in this thread i hope none of this gets personal on Kidney (seems as inoffensive as they come) but its absolutely soul destroying watching our National team when you're certain we can do better. Its got to a stage where i'm hoping the French, the English, the Italians turn us over badly because thats what its gonna take to see change. I take no joy in saying that either and its obviously not a nice sentiment praying a man loses his job. I'd just like to enjoy watching our National team again win, lose or draw.

heybaby

Lapin wrote: »

I hate this trend of looking for the manager/coach's head after one game.

It stems from a culture in British tabloid newspapers of calling for the resignation of various England soccer managers over the last 30 years, and has since crept into all other sports.

Wales deserved their win today, but it was only a late kick of the ball that ultimately decided the game. Had that ball not gone over the bar would this thread exist?

I doubt it.

Interestingly - Not one one person above calling for Kidney's head has suggested anyone to replace him.

FFS, there are four games left in this tournament. :mad:

People have been calling for Kidneys head for 2 years, myself among them. He is just not doing the job. He had success at provincial level and achieved the grand slam, a fabulous achievement, but instead of kicking on and consolidating our supremacy we have gone backwards, one meaningful victory over australia in two years is not good enough. Kidney is a nice man, we will all agree but theres no fire in the belly and whatever he's saying in the dressing room is not working and hasnt been for a while, combine this with his woeful box kicking tactics and you have an international side playing collectively poorer than the sum of its individual parts.

Yes there are four games left in the tournament but there is not a hope of us beating france in paris, last time was a decade ago thanks to BODs brilliance. So this time next week realistically we will have 2 games under our belt and two defeats, a cracking start to what was supposed to be a redemptive 6 nations dont you think ? We will probably beat a hoplessly inadequate scotland side, italy will give us a stern test as they have done of late and i would like to think we can beat a novice england team on paddys day!!! At best we can hope for third after france and wales.

To answer your question regarding a suggestion as to who should replace kidney... one name for me .. graham henry. World champion coach steeped in success and thank the lord, he doesnt believe in stupid bloody box kicking. Good bye Kidney.

copacetic

It would be madness to get rid of Kidney now, it will have to wait until after championship at least.

Then he should go, nothing to do with the man himself, but the way the Irish setup is being run in laughable. We let a decent attack coach like Gaffney be forced out to be replaced by no-one, but the defensive coach, the kicking coach and the video anaysist all doing a little bit of it? nuts, farcical and laughable.

By all accounts Gaffney couldn't stand the way the coaching team was being run which is symptomatic of the problems IMO. It goes right to the top of the IRFU, we are told Kildney is conservative because we need to keep our world ranking and must win at all costs, yet we can't do that because we are so conservative.

It's one thing to lose playing with heart, but to see the team running around like headless chickens. Under coached, under motivated and disorganised is pretty hard to take. Wales have totally torn us apart tactically twice in a row now, we have made Gatland the defacto Lions coach and look like a world beater with our incompetence.

highgiant1985

For those who suggest sacking him... who would you bring in to replace him?

Who is available that would be an improvement.

yupyup7up

Maybe if the Leinster players (Except Kearney, who was excellent), actually played well for Ireland then we might win something. Bunch of bottlers. Johnny Sexton was so bad yesterday I'd have started Eric Elwood ahead of him.

And all this talk about Earls not being a centre, I'll tell you one thing, North wouldn't have ran over him like he was nothing. (Save the Manu Tuilagi run please).

The only Munster player that played bad was DOC. Ryan was immense when he came on. Dunno why our wingers were so flat in defence against a kicking OH. SOB is NOT a 7!!!!!!!!! Put him to 8, drop heaslip and put O'Mahoney in at 7.

totallegend

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm beginning to think the problem is less with Kidney than with the IRFU itself. At this stage I suspect they're giving the wrong orders to the coaches, particularly since it feels like we're currently watching the EOS sacking in replay. Get rid of Kidney at the end of the 6N and tell his successor that they have until the end of the 2013 tournament to experiment however they see fit.

Nail on the head there.

2007; Head coach is given contract extension ahead of the World Cup. Ireland fail to reach potential at RWC. Head coach concentrates team coaching within increasingly smaller back room staff. Subsequent Six Nations sees poor results and coach departs under a cloud.

2011; Head coach is given contract extension ahead of the World Cup. Ireland fail to reach potential at RWC. Head coach concentrates team coaching within increasingly smaller back room staff. Subsequent Six Nations... well, it's not off to a flyer, is it?

Tigerandahalf

Lads maybe the players are just not good enough. I dont like this constant calling for the coach's head. Yes the game plan is poor but do we have the players. I always hear about our fantastic backs. I would pick every one of the French backs before ours and at least 3 or 4 of the Welsh. The previous poster is right. Take out the NIQ players from Ulster and Munster and they wouldnt have qualified for HCup q finals. We need to bring through some real quality centres and a 7 plus a bruiser in the 2nd row. But they may not come through. Leinster have been beating v ordinary sides in the H Cup. The French are more interested in T14 and the Scots and Italians are ordinary. The game plan needs to be changed yet when it was changed for the last 6 nations the players couldnt stop knocking the ball on and giving away penalties at the ruck.

shuffol

It's funny how if Rog had missed that drop goal against Wales or if Jones penalty had travelled a couple of extra feet Kidney probably wouldn't be the coach today. I guess we were starved of success for so long that we were always going to sell our souls to whoever delivered it, the GS blinded us and we never really had a proper analysis of how we won it. Fact is we didn't play spectacular rugby but were just quite lucky and had the experience to close out the tight games.

Tigerandahalf

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Lads maybe the players are just not good enough. I dont like this constant calling for the coach's head. Yes the game plan is poor but do we have the players. I always hear about our fantastic backs. I would pick every one of the French backs before ours and at least 3 or 4 of the Welsh. The previous poster is right. Take out the NIQ players from Ulster and Munster and they wouldnt have qualified for HCup q finals. We need to bring through some real quality centres and a 7 plus a bruiser in the 2nd row. But they may not come through. Leinster have been beating v ordinary sides in the H Cup. The French are more interested in T14 and the Scots and Italians are ordinary. The game plan needs to be changed yet when it was changed for the last 6 nations the players couldnt stop knocking the ball on and giving away penalties at the ruck.

Ulster v Leicester
Munster v Northhampton
Leinster vs Bath
Connacht vs Quins

all of these games were played at levels far and away above the dross we saw yesterday. Discernible, viable gameplans were big features in all.

Tigerandahalf

All English teams. Hardly full of flair.

andrewdcs

A large part of the opprobrium on here and in the general media / public is from one eyed Leinster / Munster "fans" or "teenagers" who can see no wrong in what their heroes provide and no right in what their "enemies" do.

The people who know rugby (and who arnt picking out individuals for a pasting) know we lost cos we had a) a bizarro non-gameplan b) no fight / execution of said bizarro plan on the pitch for a good 60 minutes of 80.

In reality though we lost a tight game we could still have won, despite ourselves. It hurts cos its Wales and we have had a hex on them for the past 10 years. Well, I have news for you, Wales are a bloody good team. I thought we would win, and well, given their players missing, and at half time when 3 of their players were KOd I felt we'd kick on, and we did only to meander aimlessly around the park.

I'm generally speaking a fan of Kidney and the team of staff we have. I too would ask if not he who else, but he realistically should have 4 games to pull it together. Very worried.

Tox56

Toulouse v Leinster was an incredibly high level of rugby, in all facets of the game.

andrewdcs

copacetic wrote: »

It would be madness to get rid of Kidney now, it will have to wait until after championship at least.

Then he should go, nothing to do with the man himself, but the way the Irish setup is being run in laughable. We let a decent attack coach like Gaffney be forced out to be replaced by no-one, but the defensive coach, the kicking coach and the video anaysist all doing a little bit of it? nuts, farcical and laughable.

By all accounts Gaffney couldn't stand the way the coaching team was being run which is symptomatic of the problems IMO. It goes right to the top of the IRFU, we are told Kildney is conservative because we need to keep our world ranking and must win at all costs, yet we can't do that because we are so conservative.

It's one thing to lose playing with heart, but to see the team running around like headless chickens. Under coached, under motivated and disorganised is pretty hard to take. Wales have totally torn us apart tactically twice in a row now, we have made Gatland the defacto Lions coach and look like a world beater with our incompetence.

Generally agree, but we gave them serious problems with the ball in hand and scored good tries. Ironically, our attacking game (when we deigned to use it) was dangerous enough. The real issue was in defence, someone somewhere said not to commit men to the breakdown, a la S14s and that was suicide.

I felt leadership on the pitch was on and off, like POC forgot he was captain sometimes. Backline had enough experience not to lose focus like they did so often. We played, as a team, badly without the ball, married to a gameplan that said the ball is not important.

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

Ulster v Leicester
Munster v Northhampton
Leinster vs Bath
Connacht vs Quins

all of these games were played at levels far and away above the dross we saw yesterday. Discernible, viable gameplans were big features in all.

But many clubs would beat international opposition, Toulouse would hammer 7 layers out of France at the last world cup. as would Leinster or Munster or Ulster of Wales.

Connacht could proably take Scotland and England, (even if they both player them at once)

Clubs get 90%+ of a players time which is why coaching is so tough.

Liamo08

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Lads maybe the players are just not good enough. I dont like this constant calling for the coach's head. Yes the game plan is poor but do we have the players. I always hear about our fantastic backs. I would pick every one of the French backs before ours and at least 3 or 4 of the Welsh. The previous poster is right. Take out the NIQ players from Ulster and Munster and they wouldnt have qualified for HCup q finals. We need to bring through some real quality centres and a 7 plus a bruiser in the 2nd row. But they may not come through. Leinster have been beating v ordinary sides in the H Cup. The French are more interested in T14 and the Scots and Italians are ordinary. The game plan needs to be changed yet when it was changed for the last 6 nations the players couldnt stop knocking the ball on and giving away penalties at the ruck.

Here's the Toulouse team that Leinster beat in the Semi last year

15 Cedric Heymans
14 Vincent Clerc
13 Florian Fritz
12 Clément Poitrenaud
11 Maxime Medard
10 David Skrela
9 Jean-Marc Doussain
1 Jean-Baptiste Poux
2 William Servat
3 Census Johnston
4 Yoann Maestri
5 Patricio Albacete
6 Jean Bouilhou (capt)
7 Yannick Nyanga
8 Louis Picamoles

16 Virgile Lacombe
17 Daan Human
18 Johnson Falefa
19 Thierry Dusautoir
20 Nicolas Bezy
21 Yannick Jauzion
22 Shaun Sowerby
23 Grégory Lamboley

How ordinary do you reckon that team is?

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

But many clubs would beat international opposition, Toulouse would hammer 7 layers out of France at the last world cup. as would Leinster or Munster or Ulster of Wales.

Clubs get 90%+ of a players time which is why coaching is so tough.

if this is your logic base, why don't we just allow the XV IQ Munster players play for Ireland? Or Leinster's first XV IQ players?

Because we bolster their resources with better players.

Yet we take a step back when we do.

Who's fault is this?

andrewdcs

skregs wrote: »

When Eddie O Sullivan was turfed out, a lot of big names immediately ruled themselves out. Ireland just isn't an attractive option to coaches.

I wouldn't have Joe because I wouldn't want someone with such a large provincial bias coaching the national team.
Personally I'd throw money at Nick Mallett, but we'll be directing competing with England for coaching contracts after the 6N

Nick Mallet did well with Italy, but we also have fans looking for someone who gets the ball moving around (a la France, Wales).

Anyone else on the SH side? Think it would have to be a Frenchman or an Aussie....

desertcircus

yupyup7up wrote: »

Maybe if the Leinster players (Except Kearney, who was excellent), actually played well for Ireland then we might win something. Bunch of bottlers. Johnny Sexton was so bad yesterday I'd have started Eric Elwood ahead of him.

And all this talk about Earls not being a centre, I'll tell you one thing, North wouldn't have ran over him like he was nothing. (Save the Manu Tuilagi run please).

The only Munster player that played bad was DOC. Ryan was immense when he came on. Dunno why our wingers were so flat in defence against a kicking OH. SOB is NOT a 7!!!!!!!!! Put him to 8, drop heaslip and put O'Mahoney in at 7.

Oh please. Maybe if we had a gameplan that suited the eight European Cup winners' style we'd do better. Sexton kicked three times as many balls at home to Wales as he did away to Cardiff. Ireland lost in Dublin; Leinster won in Cardiff.

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

if this is your logic base, why don't we just allow the XV IQ Munster players play for Ireland? Or Leinster's first XV IQ players?

Because we bolster their resources with better players.

Yet we take a step back when we do.

Who's fault is this?

I think bolstering with 'better' players has a negative return, examples on both sides, but its by no means a silver bullet.
Ospreys, Toulon, Stade, or any number of teams who brought in "better" en masse and went backwards. Ok, all superb sucessful teams at times, but no Munster / Leicester etc. (though they perennially "on the wane")

Saracens have done well managing a lot of change in the past 3 years, but they were torn to shreds in the HC last year by a team with at most 3/4 changes.

I'm saying, you drop Malzieu, North, Servat, whoever into ireland (i.e. players who would probably get picked (had we a less conservative manager) ) would Ireland suddenly become undefeatable?

Would we immediately click? If you have 6 days a week, you can bring in more players, more attack lines, more work on set pieces yadayada, you can't unless under extreme circumstances do this at international level.


Oh, and to answer your question:
Stripped on NIQs all our clubs drop a level, pick all of one club as they play well together is politically not on. there are combinations (half backs) who need to know each other. Why we dont let them play together is beyond me in some cases, but time spent together, professionalism to learn the country set up quickly, executing a gameplan even if your not suited to it (a la sexton kicking out of hand more than in Blue, Rog being asked to take contact every now and again to mix it up)