Shocking Koran Quotes

Buzz84

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Well are you a parent? Or a woman? Or gay?

There are lots of ways in which the Catholic church continues to attempt to impose its beliefs on others.

Parents who have no religion are still forced to send their children to schools run by the Catholic church where catholicism is integrated into the curriculum and taught as fact.

Gay people still can't get married in this country and have the same legal rights as other married couples because of lobbying by the church and other christian groups.

Women in Ireland are faced with a battle with the Catholic church over their reproductive rights. The catholic church seeks to have them become a brood mare for the state with its views on abortion.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean that there isn't ample evidence for this imposition. That's what we call the argument from privilege which is really just a more refined version of the argument from ignorance.

Yes I am a parent. I have no religion and I'll happily send my child to the local Catholic school. I'd prefer my child to make his own mind up like I did myself instead of forcing my beliefs onto them.
Religion is a very small aspect in schools. Nobody is forced to believe it if they don't want to.

Would I be right in saying that their is more and more Educate Together Schools opening? Also I thought the minister had brought in reforms that every district can vote to remove their Schools from the Catholic System if they want to.

The issue around gay people getting married really is a matter for government not the Church. If the Government legislate for Gay Marriage their is F-all the Church can do about it.

Like I said previously the issue around abortion is a matter for government. A lot of people hold strong views on either side of the abortion argument weather they are religous or not. If Fine Gael actually have the balls to legislate for the x -case their is F-all the church can do.

robindch

Reekwind wrote: »

It may be that everyone who's posted quotes in this thread is actually well-versed in the history, technicalities and application of Islamic law or dogma but I doubt that. It's far more likely that most posters know nothing about Islam or its texts, save the out of context quotes gleaned from the internet, and are criticising out of complete ignorance

Atheists and agnostics, at least on this forum and I suspect in society more generally, hold their views because they understand religion, not because they don't.

Have a look at the 2010 "Religious Knowledge Survey" from the Pew Research Center which shows that your average atheist or agnostic knows significantly more about religion than the religious do:

http://www.pewforum.org/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey-who-knows-what-about-religion.aspx

robindch

Buzz84 wrote: »

Religion is a very small aspect in schools. Nobody is forced to believe it if they don't want to.

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on this forum alone which attest to exactly the opposite.

Buzz84

Reekwind wrote: »

I'd say in that the response from atheists so often parrots the irrational and laziness of those that the profess to oppose. Something that this thread demonstrates: cutting select quotes from a religious text, regardless of context, does not a critique make

It may be that everyone who's posted quotes in this thread is actually well-versed in the history, technicalities and application of Islamic law or dogma but I doubt that. It's far more likely that most posters know nothing about Islam or its texts, save the out of context quotes gleaned from the internet, and are criticising out of complete ignorance

And that's where the great irony comes from: very few people obsess over religious texts/passages like atheists. In doing so they reduce religion to a single book and take that as (pun intended) holy scripture. A lot of people in this thread are simply following in the footsteps of fundamentalists and missing out on both the context and the several millennia of subsequent works

So if someone's critique of Islam, or any religion, is based primarily on "Well, your holy book says X" then please don't call yourself an atheist; you'll just embarrass the rest of us

100% agree well said

Buzz84

robindch wrote: »

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of posts on this forum alone which attest to exactly the opposite.

I went to a Catholic School I wasn't forced to believe anything.

robindch

Buzz84 wrote: »

I went to a Catholic School I wasn't forced to believe anything.

Happy to hear it.

As I said above, that's not the case with many other schools, many other children and many other posters.

Putting my finger in the air, I'd say religious interference in schools -- including indoctrination against the wishes, and frequently without the knowledge, of the parents -- is amongst the most commonly-appearing topics on this forum.

oldrnwisr

Buzz84 wrote: »

Yes I am a parent. I have no religion and I'll happily send my child to the local Catholic school. I'd prefer my child to make his own mind up like I did myself instead of forcing my beliefs onto them.
Religion is a very small aspect in schools. Nobody is forced to believe it if they don't want to.

First of all, what beliefs exactly do you not force upon them. If you have no religious beliefs, then what is there to force on your children. The thing is though, you are forcing beliefs on them. Like I said in my last post, Catholicism in primary schools is not presented as if "Catholics believe X" it is taught as "Catholicism is true". When you have a teacher who is there to teach them facts and they teach them that catholicism's teachings are facts then the child has no reason to doubt the teacher and you get indoctrination. It's not a question of being forced to believe, it's just that when religion is presented as fact from an early age then the child grows up without questioning its truth.

Buzz84 wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that their is more and more Educate Together Schools opening? Also I thought the minister had brought in reforms that every district can vote to remove their Schools from the Catholic System if they want to.

Yes, there are more ET schools opening up but the Catholic run schools still represent over 90% of the total, so in rural areas choice of school becomes a real problem. Also, if this issue, which is a constitutional rights issue, is left to majority vote, then there is no hope of progress.

Buzz84 wrote: »

The issue around gay people getting married really is a matter for government not the Church. If the Government legislate for Gay Marriage their is F-all the Church can do about it.

Like I said previously the issue around abortion is a matter for government. A lot of people hold strong views on either side of the abortion argument weather they are religous or not. If Fine Gael actually have the balls to legislate for the x -case their is F-all the church can do.

As I said, in my last post, the Catholic church are attempting to impose their beliefs on others, attempting being the important word. Whether or not they are successful doesn't mean they're still not going to give it the old college try.

Buzz84

robindch wrote: »

Happy to hear it.

As I said above, that's not the case with many other schools, many other children and many other posters.

Putting my finger in the air, I'd say religious interference in schools -- including indoctrination against the wishes, and frequently without the knowledge, of the parents -- is amongst the most commonly-appearing topics on this forum.

I love that word makes it sound far more sinister.

The reality is the vast majority of people and especially children dont give an absolute monkeys about religion.

Without their knowledge, they send their kids to a Catholic school and then are shocked that their kids are taught about religion. Shock horror.

Buzz84

oldrnwisr wrote: »

First of all, what beliefs exactly do you not force upon them. If you have no religious beliefs, then what is there to force on your children. The thing is though, you are forcing beliefs on them. Like I said in my last post, Catholicism in primary schools is not presented as if "Catholics believe X" it is taught as "Catholicism is true". When you have a teacher who is there to teach them facts and they teach them that catholicism's teachings are facts then the child has no reason to doubt the teacher and you get indoctrination. It's not a question of being forced to believe, it's just that when religion is presented as fact from an early age then the child grows up without questioning its truth.




Yes, there are more ET schools opening up but the Catholic run schools still represent over 90% of the total, so in rural areas choice of school becomes a real problem. Also, if this issue, which is a constitutional rights issue, is left to majority vote, then there is no hope of progress.




As I said, in my last post, the Catholic church are attempting to impose their beliefs on others, attempting being the important word. Whether or not they are successful doesn't mean they're still not going to give it the old college try.

So no one is being forced then yeah?

robindch

Buzz84 wrote: »

Without their knowledge, they send their kids to a Catholic school and then are shocked that their kids are taught about religion. Shock horror.

If you'd like to stay around and debate the influence of religion in Irish schools, then please do.

If, on the other hand, you just want to ignore people's experiences while posting a set of disconnected one-liners which are as predictable as they are tedious, then After Hours is thattaway.

oldrnwisr

Buzz84 wrote: »

So no one is being forced then yeah?

Ahem...

Buzz84 wrote: »

Yeah but they don't. Who's trying to impose religion on you? Being obsessed with something you don't believe in isn't healthy. Its pretty sad.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Um, the Roman Catholic Church?

Let's not forget how this got started, shall we? Mad Hatter's response was to your question of trying to impose their beliefs. Like I said, the Catholic Church is doing all they can to try and impose their beliefs on people some of which are more successful than others.

Dades

Buzz84 wrote: »

So no one is being forced then yeah?

Buzz, my child has to produce a baptismal cert to stand any chance of getting into our local school in September. Does that sound like a choice to you? Being forced to baptise your child to go to the same taxpayer-funded school all her friends are going to? As it happens, she's been offered a place in an ET school in a different area anyway. I just need to move house so that can work - sure what have I got to complain about!

Your objections smack of the "I don't give a sh*t so neither should you" attitude.

Reekwind

robindch wrote: »

Atheists and agnostics, at least on this forum and I suspect in society more generally, hold their views because they understand religion, not because they don't

No, that survey shows that atheists are more likely to know about religion than the next person on the street. That is not the same as understanding religion* and it's most certainly not the same as being able to produce a coherent and knowledgeable critique of a particular faith

(Of course if you've got something to suggest that everyone who's posted in this thread is well versed in Islamic law then that would be something)

Now I've got absolutely no doubt that many atheists on this forum are knowledgeable and are well placed to criticise. I'd like to think that I count amongst those. But that is not something that I have seen in this thread and cutting/pasting from the Sceptics Bible/Quran is not a particularly impressive demonstration of said knowledge. Posting a quote does not make you a paleographer. We're supposed to be rationalists, not merely inverse evangelicals

*Which is not even getting into the flaws of that particular survey. One would expect, for example, a Muslim to score highly when questioned on Islam but be largely ignorant as to Mormon practicies

Worztron

Dades. Is there a reason why you've let this thread go off on a tangent from page 26?

Dades

Worztron wrote: »

Dades. Is there a reason why you've let this thread go off on a tangent from page 26?

No particular reason. Perhaps because it made a tired thread briefly interesting.

Threads like this usually fade away to be found occasionally as people find it in searches. But you seem intent to keep it alive when it should be enjoying retirement, much like the way they keep inviting Twink on the Late Late Show.

Worztron

Dades wrote: »

No particular reason. Perhaps because it made a tired thread briefly interesting.

Threads like this usually fade away to be found occasionally as people find it in searches. But you seem intent to keep it alive when it should be enjoying retirement, much like the way they keep inviting Twink on the Late Late Show.

Selective moderating at its worst.

robindch

Worztron wrote: »

Selective moderating at its worst.

Worztron - discussion of mod decisions is only permitted in the feedback forum, and not in-thread.

thanks.

Dades

Am responding via PM.

Geomy

Buzz84 wrote: »

I love that word makes it sound far more sinister.

The reality is the vast majority of people and especially children dont give an absolute monkeys about religion.

Without their knowledge, they send their kids to a Catholic school and then are shocked that their kids are taught about religion. Shock horror.

I don't know anyone who was forced to believe the religion that was thought in schools,I'm being honest.
I'm not saying this for the sake of an argument or to be different or piss people off.

The only time I ever got into trouble in religion was when myself and the lads were singing "Swalk in the light swalk"
and not "walk in the light walk"

Maybe some catholic schools were more strict than other's.

I'm lucky I never ended up in one of those strict holy schools very lucky,as being a cheeky fcker wouldn't have gone down very well