Pacquiao v Mayweather

Henno30

Fall_Guy wrote: »

For me De La Hoya was either contractually obliged not to rehydrate after the weigh-in or their was medically something wrong with him. In the weigh-in photos he looks so gaunt, he has all the look of someone who has made a hard cut. Even just by going back to eating and drinking normally you would expect him to put back on a good few lbs. Either way something seemed to be up.

I wouldn't really use it as a stick to beat Manny with though, and I do feel what he has done is amazing. His victory over Cotto was tremendous and I don't think the 145lb limit made a huge difference to how that fight played out. If i remember correctly Cotto was at least holding his own in the early rounds, if not getting the better of it through solid boxing and excellent use of his jab. Only after feeling Pacquiao's power did he go on the back-foot and invite a more sustained attack from Pacquiao onto himself.

I really really REALLY wanted to see Pacquiao Mayweather a couple of years ago but as time goes by I think the fight favours Mayweather more and more. His pure boxing skills will age better than Manny's freakish physical attributes. Now I think the fight I'd most like to see made is Mayweather versus Canelo.

Hard to argue with any of that. I think the major problem Pacquiao faces against Mayweather is his inability to close the distance against a counter-puncher. I definitely think he can break the shell down and hit Mayweather, if he's in range, but I just don't see Floyd letting him get the opportunity. I just see Floyd keeping him at range and Manny lunging and over-reaching as he was against Marquez last year and against Bradley in June.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it could be a great fight, Floyd is not as quick on his feet as he used to be and Manny's hands are probably as quick as ever. But I think the odds favour it being a boring affair with Mayweather taking a decisive points victory.

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

It's irrelevant, Gamboa is not Manny and De la Hoya was not a top middleweight. I've never once said manny was not a great talent, I knew this years before he was world famous, what I question is him picking opponents and weight to suit him and hurt opponents. This is what he does and you know it.


Plus he didn't fight De la Hoya at light middle so moot point.

I'm assuming you meant light-middle (highlighted).

And if you did, you're wrong. De La Hoya certainly was a top light-middle, as proven by his narrow split decision loss to the acknowledged best in the division only two fights before. How could it mean anything else?

And my point is (yet again), that you expected Pacman to fight De La Hoya at light-middle, despite the fact that he was only a super-feather, who had just had his first fight at lightweight. Would you expect Gamboa to fight Conelius Bundrage (IBF), Baysangurov (WBA), Austin Trout (WBA ordinary) or Miguel Cotto at light-middle? It would be laughed at and rightfully so. And don't tell me those guys are any better than Oscar was back then, cos if you believe that then you believe any of them could bring Floyd to a close split decision. They wouldn't. And we all know that. And Floyd is 5 years older now.

If any of those made a fight with Gamboa and it was agreed they would drop to welter to accomodate him, do you think Gamboa would suddenly become the betting favourite? He wouldn't. It would still be regarded as a mismatch. And that's the way the Pac/DLH fight was regarded BEFORE the fight.

Everybody knew the fight was Oscar's first at welter for years, yet he was still a big favourite. And since he was so much smaller nobody was making Pacquiao out to be doing something wrong by having the fight at welter BEFORE the fight. Just because Oscar messed up / overestimated his ability to lose the weight don't try putting that on Pacquiao.

cowzerp

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

Halloween Jack

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

Find myself agreeing with the majority of your posts on this topic cowzer,

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

I don't think it was at all an easy night for Floyd. I believe you originally had Oscar a narrow winner. Not sure how this now goes to an easy night to Floyd. It was a split decision. Floyd was made work very hard for that win. Not arguing with a Floyd win, but I don't think it was easy.

As to Canelo. Canelo today is better than Oscar from 2007.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I don't think it was at all an easy night for Floyd. I believe you originally had Oscar a narrow winner. Not sure how this now goes to an easy night to Floyd. It was a split decision. Floyd was made work very hard for that win. Not arguimg with a Floyd win, but I don't think it was easy.

As to Canelo. Canelo today is better than Oscar from 2007.

I watched it like most, including the commentators as really wanting Oscsr to win-when I watched it back Oscar hit shoulders all night and barely landed a glove on Floyd, unless you call holding with 1 hand and punching with the other hitting.

Either way, comparing this big and healthy Oscsr to the year and a half older weight drained shell that manny fought is ludicrous

And Gamboa is no Manny either, fact is de la Hoya was set up to fail.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

IEither way, comparing this big and healthy Oscsr to the year and a half older weight drained shell that manny fought is ludicrous
.

They are worlds apart.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I'm assuming you meant light-middle (highlighted).

And if you did, you're wrong. De La Hoya certainly was a top light-middle, as proven by his narrow split decision loss to the acknowledged best in the division only two fights before. How could it mean anything else?

.

Floyd I don't believe was the acknowledged best in the division. That was his first ever fight at the weight. He weighed 150 I think, and after that fight he went back to WW. Wasn't Vernon Forrest and Cory Spinks the leading names back in April/May 2007?

BTW, in 2007, yes, Oscar was a top fighter at LMW. I still think Oscar was a bit past his best days.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

BTW, in 2007, yes, Oscar was a top fighter at LMW. I still think Oscar was a bit past his best days.

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

One needs only look at Oscar vs. Forbes to know that he regressed a fair bit between 2007 and 2008.

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

One of those "losses" was the second Mosely fight. You don't actually believe Oscar lost that fight, do you?

The other was a close loss to Mayweather (there are still plenty who thought Oscar won - I don't, but it shows it was close). How many other light-middles would have given Mayweather a close fight? Very few. Which means by definition he was a top light-middle.

As for Canelo, yes, after I mentioned him initially, I realised he's probably better now than Oscar was then, so I used Conelius Bundrage (IBF), Baysangurov (WBA), Austin Trout (WBA ordinary) or Miguel Cotto as similars and asked the same question, but hey, you refused to answer it - yet again!! - and went back to Canelo. You'd make a great politician

There's a paragraph at the end of this Wikipedia piece that you should read. It's the bit titled 'September 20 rematch'. It shows what I remember being talked about at the time and that is that if they were to have a rematch it was going to be at welter!! That's why Oscar's next fight against Forbes was at 150. Oscar was going down in weight anyway. Pacquiao's name is nowhere to be seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_De_La_Hoya_vs._Floyd_Mayweather

cowzerp

I think you're missing the point that Oscar was simply drained and Roach and Manny knew this would be the case, This was not heroic of Manny taking on a Zombie!

Same happened Cotto who looked a hell of a lot healthier versus Mayweather when he was fighting at the healthier weight.

Why did Oscar not rehydrate? this is ridiculous-He didn't in my opinion as he would have lost millions if he did-yes i know before you say it, this is speculation but please come up with a better explanation, the only other plausible 1 would be the sickness 1 and that surely would have been made public, I've been there several times and you feel like you're going to die, He did not do this by choice.

And Manny is way better than Gamboa ever was or will be and a heavier hitter more suited to the heavier weights, And even Gamboa would have beaten the shell that was De la Hoya

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that Oscar was simply drained and Roach and Manny knew this would be the case, This was not heroic of Manny taking on a Zombie!

Same happened Cotto who looked a hell of a lot healthier versus Mayweather when he was fighting at the healthier weight.

Why did Oscar not rehydrate? this is ridiculous-He didn't in my opinion as he would have lost millions if he did-yes i know before you say it, this is speculation but please come up with a better explanation, the only other plausible 1 would be the sickness 1 and that surely would have been made public, I've been there several times and you feel like you're going to die, He did not do this by choice.

And Manny is way better than Gamboa ever was or will be and a heavier hitter more suited to the heavier weights, And even Gamboa would have beaten the shell that was De la Hoya

I didn't miss any point, as I've already mentioned that DLH was obviously dehydrated. That has never been the issue.

As shown in the wikipedia link, Oscar was already making preparations to move down to welter to fight Floyd Mayweather in a rematch. He fought Forbes at 150 as preparation, but Floyd 'retired'. The fight with Pacman was then made at welter, where he was going to be fighting anyway. The fact that Oscar struggled so badly to make the weight was his own fault/miscalculation. He should have known his own body better. But the bottom line is nobody knew this BEFORE the fight. Hindsight has 20/20 vision.

You seem to think the fight should have been made at 11 stone. A super-feather moving up to take on a light-middle!! When has that ever been done before? Henry Armstrong fought for the middle title having weighed around 140 for most of his previous fights. That's the nearest I can think of, but don't let that get in the way of your theory.

cowzerp

Oscar showed he could not compete at 150 with his lacklustre performance v Forbes. The fight should have been 150 at lowest and either way that's not my point. Again you're ignoring my real point, Why Oscar got in the ring lighter than manny at 147, I say he had to-this is the real problem, it would be easy to go back up to 165 after making 145 in over 24 hours, they where main event so was probably more like 30 hours, and I know as I've done this myself several times

So what's your opinion on what happened?!

Miscalculation? If so-Laughable.

Sickness? Why would they not have stated this.

Contractually obliged? Many contracts have keeping details secret in them or penalty s can be faced.

We can go back and forward but I see or as he was set to fail by contract, nothing else makes any sense in this situation.

megadodge

I have just as little idea of what happened as you do. I was amazed he came in at 145 in the first place. That would suggest serious miscalculation before we even come anywhere near the non-rehydration issue. When asked about it Oscar claimed at the time the reason he came in so low was for speed purposes, which I thought was robbing Peter to pay Paul.

You believe he was contractually obliged to not rehydrate. I don't, mainly because I don't believe Oscar would agree to it (you said it yourself, he's a smart man) and secondly I can't believe in the intervening time somebody, somewhere with that knowledge is going to stay quiet on it. It could be 'leaked' very easily, so why not? You've admitted yourself the theory is complete spculation. I agree.

cowzerp

All our chat on it is speculation, not gaining the weight would be difficult-gaining 10 lbs after weight cut would be easy.

cowzerp

Is anyone still interested in the Mayweather v Pacquiao fight?

personally i think it would be an easy win for Floyd and there is tougher fights out there, Mainly Martinez and Canelo

darced

This post has been deleted.