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Pacquiao v Mayweather

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    #512
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    otto_26 wrote: »
    Maybe 143lbs making it 50/50 fair for both fighters..

    Nope, that fight was For a welterweight title. The weight limit for welterweight is 147, make fights at catchweights if you like but they should not be for titles, the weight classes have served us well for decades, the only reason to manipulate them is to gain an advantage for a fighter imo and is cynical, the weights are not something to be negotiated like ring size or glove weight.


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    #513
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭megadodge


    cowzerp wrote: »
    So what do you explain about de la Hoya been huge against Floyd and withered and barely able to move v Manny?! That was ridiculous draining of Oscar, cutting to most fighters is normal but not when it's cutting like Oscar had too, that extra weight cut was for a reason, not to make him lighter but to make him drained in both strength and speed and punch resistance.

    Hold it right there.

    Yet again selective memory comes into play when it suits Mayweather supporters.

    BEFORE the fight OSCAR came in for a lot of flak. Why?

    Because people correctly viewed it as a cynical piece of matchmaking by DLH where he was taking advantage of the popularity of a much smaller man in order to gain a huge payday. It was regarded as more an 'event' than a legitimate boxing match. Pacman was just after having his ONE AND ONLY fight at LIGHTWEIGHT, having been making super-feather very comfortably beforehand.

    An awful lot of boxing people were very critical of the matchup and I for one didn't even bother watching the match (that rarely happens) as I thought it was going to be mismatch - in OSCAR'S FAVOUR!! Can you imagine the uproar if DLH wanted Pacman to fight at LIGHT-MIDDLE!!!

    I was stunned when I found out the result, as were the vast majority of knowledgable boxing people.

    They are the facts surrounding the De La Hoya / Pacquiao fight. Don't try changing them to suit your argument.


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    #514
    Halloween Jack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    megadodge wrote: »
    Hold it right there.

    Yet again selective memory comes into play when it suits Mayweather supporters.

    BEFORE the fight OSCAR came in for a lot of flak. Why?

    Because people correctly viewed it as a cynical piece of matchmaking by DLH where he was taking advantage of the popularity of a much smaller man in order to gain a huge payday. It was regarded as more an 'event' than a legitimate boxing match. Pacman was just after having his ONE AND ONLY fight at LIGHTWEIGHT, having been making super-feather very comfortably beforehand.

    An awful lot of boxing people were very critical of the matchup and I for one didn't even bother watching the match (that rarely happens) as I thought it was going to be mismatch - in OSCAR'S FAVOUR!! Can you imagine the uproar if DLH wanted Pacman to fight at LIGHT-MIDDLE!!!

    I was stunned when I found out the result, as were the vast majority of knowledgable boxing people.

    They are the facts surrounding the De La Hoya / Pacquiao fight. Don't try changing them to suit your argument.

    That is true to an extent and I can remember people talking of a mismatch etc.

    It was probably because of all that talk that nobody anticipated the immense difficulty Oscar would have making 147 properly, he looked like a warmed up corpse.


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    #515
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    megadodge wrote: »
    Hold it right there.

    Yet again selective memory comes into play when it suits Mayweather supporters.

    BEFORE the fight OSCAR came in for a lot of flak. Why?

    Because people correctly viewed it as a cynical piece of matchmaking by DLH where he was taking advantage of the popularity of a much smaller man in order to gain a huge payday. It was regarded as more an 'event' than a legitimate boxing match. Pacman was just after having his ONE AND ONLY fight at LIGHTWEIGHT, having been making super-feather very comfortably beforehand.

    An awful lot of boxing people were very critical of the matchup and I for one didn't even bother watching the match (that rarely happens) as I thought it was going to be mismatch - in OSCAR'S FAVOUR!! Can you imagine the uproar if DLH wanted Pacman to fight at LIGHT-MIDDLE!!!

    I was stunned when I found out the result, as were the vast majority of knowledgable boxing people.

    They are the facts surrounding the De La Hoya / Pacquiao fight. Don't try changing them to suit your argument.


    Just because people thought it was cynical does not mean it was not cynical of Manny's people to drain the balls off Oscar-I don't see how your post is any way knocking Mayweather or his fans-De la Hoya probably did want an advantage on Mayweather as Manny did against De la Hoya, that's exactly my point-Both fought totally different opponents, De la hoya was not 142 or under since january 2007, and as far as i remember there was a clause he could only gain back a small amount too guaranteeing he would be dehydrated in the ring.

    Watching De la hoya and how feeble and weak he was in there was really 1 of the saddest things i've ever seen in Boxing and it was deliberate is what makes it worse.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #516
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    If you want to fight someone and you call them out publicly as Hatton did with Mayweather , then you have to fight them at their weight , its simple case closed . Also it is a lot easier to gain say 5lbs and maintain all your speed etc if your diet and training is done the right way than to cut 5lbs and maintain it .


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    #517
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    At the time Manny was seen as the underdog. There was not any real talk of draining etc. Only after Manny dominated the bout did folks throw this up. Anyway, there was talk that Oscar also failed to rehydrate come fight night. There was talk that he was below 150 lbs in the ring.


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    #518
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    At the time Manny was seen as the underdog. There was not any real talk of draining etc. Only after Manny dominated the bout did folks throw this up. Anyway, there was talk that Oscar also failed to rehydarte come fight night. There was talk that he was below 150 lbs in the ring.

    Failed to, was contracted not to you mean.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #519
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Failed to, was contracted not to you mean.

    Not sure, Paul. I don't believe that Oscar was not allowed gain at least a few lbs. I am betting the limit was 10 lbs. That seems fair. I believe Oscar barely gained anything. Maybe 2 lbs. I remember at the time thinking that was crazy.


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    #520
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    walshb wrote: »
    Not sure, Paul. I don't believe that Oscar was not allowed gain at least a few lbs. I am betting the limit was 10 lbs. That seems fair. I believe Oscar barely gained anything. Maybe 2 lbs. I remember at the time thinking that was crazy.

    Im pretty sure there must of been something in the contract .. Didnt Roach say that he could see from Oscars veins that fluid had to be taken from him the day before ?? Impossible to recover from something like that ... Just shows you boxing is all about the $$$$ . After 3 weeks in camp DLH should of pulled out of the fight knowing he had no chance in making the weight


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    #521
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    TheNap wrote: »
    Im pretty sure there must of been something in the contract .. Didnt Roach say that he could see from Oscars veins that fluid had to be taken from him the day before ?? Impossible to recover from something like that ... Just shows you boxing is all about the $$$$ . After 3 weeks in camp DLH should of pulled out of the fight knowing he had no chance in making the weight

    The contracted weight was 147 lbs. After this I am not aware of any clause which prevented Oscar from some decent rehydration. I recall Lampley on fight night being astounded that Oscar was apparently 148 lbs on fight night. Lampley and HBO never implied or stated that there was a fight night limit.


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    #522
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    walshb wrote: »
    The contracted weight was 147 lbs. After this I am not aware of any clause which prevented Oscar from some decent rehydration. I recall Lampley on fight night being astounded that Oscar was apparently 148 lbs on fight night. Lampley and HBO never implied or stated that there was a fight night limit.

    Neither am i .. But still its not normal at all for a fighter no to load up come fight night .. Anyway just to change the topic a bit.. Mayweather seems to be fighting May 4th against Canelo or Guerrero .. Both will be good spectacles and entertaining 24/7'sI think Pacquaio will fight Marquez again , win and then retire


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    #523
    andrew241983
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭andrew241983


    TheNap wrote: »
    Neither am i .. But still its not normal at all for a fighter no to load up come fight night .. Anyway just to change the topic a bit.. Mayweather seems to be fighting May 4th against Canelo or Guerrero .. Both will be good spectacles and entertaining 24/7'sI think Pacquaio will fight Marquez again , win and then retire

    yawn


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    #524
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    TheNap wrote: »
    Neither am i .. But still its not normal at all for a fighter no to load up come fight night .. Anyway just to change the topic a bit.. Mayweather seems to be fighting May 4th against Canelo or Guerrero .. Both will be good spectacles and entertaining 24/7'sI think Pacquaio will fight Marquez again , win and then retire

    It will be Guerrero.


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    #525
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    megadodge wrote: »
    I was stunned when I found out the result, as were the vast majority of knowledgable boxing people.

    .

    It wasn't so much the result but the manner of victory and the pathetic display from Oscar. He looked like a complete zombie in the ring. He was that bad. And Manny himself seemed surprised. Took it easy on him in parts of the fight. I was critical of Oscar. I was too harsh. He was suffering in there, and it wasn't just a bad day at the office either.


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    #526
    TheNap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 786 ✭✭✭TheNap


    walshb wrote: »
    It will be Guerrero.

    Would prefer Canelo


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    #527
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    TheNap wrote: »
    Would prefer Canelo

    Me too. Guerrero is just too sluggish to beat Floyd. The added weight to Guerrero has slowed him down noticeably.


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    #528
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Not sure, Paul. I don't believe that Oscar was not allowed gain at least a few lbs. I am betting the limit was 10 lbs. That seems fair. I believe Oscar barely gained anything. Maybe 2 lbs. I remember at the time thinking that was crazy.

    Yes and that is ridiculous, That would be gained in a matter of mins after a weigh in-I'm pretty sure he had a clause which stopped him gaining back the weight, I also thought the commentators where discussing this before the fight.

    No way Oscar with his experience just wouldn't bother rehydrating when he was clearly suffering and could not make 150 the fight before that and weighed 151 and paid money to opponent to keep fight on.

    Cotto was solid against Floyd and 9lbs heavier and another shrivelled looking opponent versus Manny and hadn't weighed that light since 2006, Manny fought good opponents but most while they where zombies.
    walshb wrote: »
    Me too. Guerrero is just too sluggish to beat Floyd. The added weight to Guerrero has slowed him down noticeably.

    I think this is the logical match, he is good and deserves a shot, and then it leaves the majot fight open for after this 1.
    TheNap wrote: »
    Would prefer Canelo

    Reason i say that above is if Floyd beats Canelo then i think there is no point fighting Guerrero but after beating Guerrero this fight is still great, if anything Canelo could do with more experience.

    Canelo will be the next superstar, Maybe the Floyd fight could be the 1 to introduce him really to the mainstream, if he wins then we have the new name of Boxing, If not i still think he will be soon after.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #529
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Surely Oscar would have came out and made it clear that he was not allowed gain much weight for fight night. I mean it would go a long way to explaining his really poor performance. The whole "he wouldn't want to be making excuses" does not explain why he wouldn't come out and tell us. And, surely someone would have came out with facts concerning this.


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    #530
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    Surely Oscar would have came out and made it clear that he was not allowed gain much weight for fight night. I mean it would go a long way to explaining his really poor performance. The whole "he wouldn't want to be making excuses" does not explain why he wouldn't come out and tell us.

    Well if he intended on fighting again then maybe-if not it doesn't matter, plus it could have been in the contract that it was not to be talked about.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #531
    Ghost.
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭Ghost.


    I never heard anything and cant find anything that suggests DLH was bound by contract no to rehytrate and gain weight before the MP fight. If that was the case it would be daft. Maybe he would have agreed to it because he was such a huge favourite to win but Im sure he would have came out about that to justify his poor performance if that was the case.

    If I remember rightly Roach said that he had planned for Manny to stay away from DLH in the early rounds but when he seen the tracks in his arms in the ring he knew they had left rehydrating him to late so he told Manny to change tactics and jump all over him. I could be wrong.

    I remember a lot of people were worried about MP getting seriously injured before the fight or spectical, myself included.
    DLH was a sad sight that night, it was hard to watch such a great fighter have a night like that.


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    #532
    Ghost.
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭Ghost.


    I never knew fighters were bound by contract not to gain weight after the weigh in. I thought they just had to make weight and then when they rehydrate they could come in at a higher weight.
    I guess every day is a school day.


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    #533
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Ghost. wrote: »
    I never heard anything and cant find anything that suggests DLH was bound by contract no to rehytrate and gain weight before the MP fight. If that was the case it would be daft. Maybe he would have agreed to it because he was such a huge favourite to win but Im sure he would have came out about that to justify his poor performance if that was the case.

    He made a fortune off this fight-he was the biggest winner of all, This leaving it to late to rehydrate stuff is ridiculous!!

    When dehydrated you do be down up to 10% of your weight, no way he just didn't bother or forget to do this-I've cut weight like this many times and i can tell you now you do be dying for fluids, 1-2 lbs gain in fluids in 24 hours is a joke and could have been achieved in minutes, not to mention the carbs etc he would have ate and the glycogen storage that occurs then, He did not do any of this and that's why he looked frail and was weak and slow.

    Is it because he is stupid or he stuck to the contract rather than lose Many Millions?!

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #534
    Ghost.
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭Ghost.


    If I remember rightly Roach said that he had planned for Manny to stay away from DLH in the early rounds but when he seen the tracks in his arms in the ring he knew they had left rehydrating him to late so he told Manny to change tactics and jump all over him. I could be wrong.

    I did say I could be wrong. But I thought thats what Roach said about DLH cutting weight on the night.
    When dehydrated you do be down up to 10% of your weight, no way he just didn't bother or forget to do this-I've cut weight like this many times and i can tell you now you do be dying for fluids, 1-2 lbs gain in fluids in 24 hours is a joke and could have been achieved in minutes, not to mention the carbs etc he would have ate and the glycogen storage that occurs then, He did not do any of this and that's why he looked frail and was weak and slow.

    Ya, I know all that how to cut weight and rehydrate and the the effects it has on the body and how unplesant it is. But what I didnt know was that fighters like in DLHs case can be contracted not to fully rehydrate or to put on weight after the weigh in. Im surprised I havent came across it before or heard it mentioned or criticised.

    Ya I know how well he did from it financially, but I still find it hard to believe that him screwing up his cutting of weight or rehydrating was because of a contractual obligation and this part of the contract was never mentioned afterwards. You may be right but where did you hear about this in the contract?


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    #535
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Ghost. wrote: »
    I did say I could be wrong. But I thought thats what Roach said about DLH cutting weight on the night.



    Ya, I know all that how to cut weight and rehydrate and the the effects it has on the body and how unplesant it is. But what I didnt know was that fighters like in DLHs case can be contracted not to fully rehydrate or to put on weight after the weigh in. Im surprised I havent came across it before or heard it mentioned or criticised.

    You can be contracted to do anything, all that means is you's have an agreement that certain things can't happen, I'm pretty sure it was discussed during the fight at the time.

    Was definitely discusses before and after the fight

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #536
    Ghost.
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭Ghost.


    Fair enough. I just couldnt find it. I must brush up on me googling skills so.


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    #537
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Ghost. wrote: »
    Fair enough. I just couldnt find it. I must brush up on me googling skills so.

    I can't find the facts myself bud so all speculation, But gaining 1-2 lbs when been so severely dehydrated would be pure stupidity if it was by choice, De la hoya is a smart man.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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    #538
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    I can't find the facts myself bud so all speculation, But gaining 1-2 lbs when been so severely dehydrated would be pure stupidity if it was by choice, De la hoya is a smart man.

    I can see your point here, but conversely, there was no real mention of a contracted weight or agreement to be a certain weight on fight night. Nothing I can find to suggest or even hint that Oscar was not allowed gain a few lbs at least. I am aware that there can be agreements that a 10 percent allowance in increase is permitted. I can only assume that Oscar and his team screwed up. Maybe Oscar did drink and eat sufficiently, but maybe it ran out of him due to some medical issue at that time?


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    #539
    otto_26
    Registered Users Posts: 518 ✭✭✭otto_26


    What I don't understand on this thread is that a lot of posters seem to know what their talking about but when it comes to MP they seem to only understand weight and anything else they can mustard up over his victories...

    I haven't read many posts that suggests, Manny was just too good, he was too fast, he was too skilful, he got his tactics for the fight just right, his movement was too good, he's just one of the best of all time...

    I just find it strange that anyone with real knowledge of the sport wouldn't be adding these opinions into their after thoughts of a Manny fight....


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    #540
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,727 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    otto_26 wrote: »
    What I don't understand on this thread is that a lot of posters seem to know what their talking about but when it comes to MP they seem to only understand weight and anything else they can mustard up over his victories...

    I haven't read many posts that suggests, Manny was just too good, he was too fast, he was too skilful, he got his tactics for the fight just right, his movement was too good, he's just one of the best of all time...

    I just find it strange that anyone with real knowledge of the sport wouldn't be adding these opinions into their after thoughts of a Manny fight....

    Not saying that you think that I am one of these posters. Heres is my take regardless:

    I for one think Manny is a hell of a talent. I think he beats Cotto no matter what weight Cotto is, Margarito the same, and I have posted about this. At WW in his first few fights he was a ball of ferocity. Sometimes folks wanna' denigrate or make ecsuses for one fighter to bolster another. I also mentioned this a few pages back. But, either way, we are all entitled to factor in as much as we can to get our points across.


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    #541
    cowzerp
    Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    otto_26 wrote: »
    What I don't understand on this thread is that a lot of posters seem to know what their talking about but when it comes to MP they seem to only understand weight and anything else they can mustard up over his victories...

    I haven't read many posts that suggests, Manny was just too good, he was too fast, he was too skilful, he got his tactics for the fight just right, his movement was too good, he's just one of the best of all time...

    I just find it strange that anyone with real knowledge of the sport wouldn't be adding these opinions into their after thoughts of a Manny fight....

    When the lads he fought are worse than ever then questions can be asked, Nobody is saying Manny was not good/great, What people are saying is his opponents may not and in the case of De la hoya where certainly hampered by making unrealistic weights.

    Weight draining to me is a Manny/Roach tactic

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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