Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

ilovesleep

gurramok wrote: »

There maybe truth in that regarding the public sector and welfare, compare taxes to our EU counterparts perhaps? You'll find they pay sky high tax to pay for services, we don't yet.

Apparently Ireland has the highest motor taxes (don't know how true this is. Read it on boards)

We also have high living costs:
Highest ESB
High food costs (don't kmow if we are the highest, but we are high).

heyjude

People are right to be outraged about the new property tax/charge and particularly with the sneaky way it is being introduced. Its only €2 a week, they proclaim, yes, but thats only for this year, the plans are already being prepared for a full blown property tax that they expect to work out at €1000 per household per year, even more if you happen to live in a town/city where land/property prices are higher(even if amenities were low/non-existent when you moved in and most of the amenities aren't due to the state). In addition, they plan to bring in another €800 per household from water charges(probably more when the true number of households in calculated and exemptions are allowed for).

So we are talking about a combined €1800 a year and probably more, which is close to €35 a week or the equivalent of a massive tax increase, if the same amount were taken in an income tax deduction, especially for those on low wages. The €2 a week, also doesn't take account of the forthcoming VAT increase, the increase in the carbon tax on heating oil in the spring or the increase in health charges/health insurance.

The information they will be seeking now, will be used to access your level of tax under the later property tax, which is why opposition to the current €100 charge is so important.

Phil Hogan said that he had tried to keep the household charge as low as possible, but when is the Senate being abolished ? When are we going to see a detailed value for money audit of all state and semi state expenditure to seek out and eliminate waste, as well as ensuring we get the maximum benefit from every last Euro ? Its hard to believe that, given government expenditure of over €50bn, that waste, inefficiency and poor value for money don't account for more than the €160m that the new property charge will bring in. What have previous reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General found when they examined state expenditure ? Did they suggest that waste, inefficiencies and poor value for money represented less than a 0.3% of government spending ? If not, then why not sort these out first, before raising taxes again in the midst of a recession ?

The full blown property tax and water charges when they are introduced, will just be another honeypot for the government and public service to dip into to pay for inefficiency and overly generous pensions.

As for the argument that every other country in Europe has a property tax, that may or may not be true, but where they do exist, the local residents get local services such as refuse collections etc. Here we already pay for refuse collections, so we already pay for something that is covered by property tax in other countries, but we will face paying a property tax and continuing to pay for refuse collections as well, unlike other countries.

Finally, the introduction of a property tax was agreed by the Fianna Fail government with the troika at the time of the bank bailout. Any opposition to the tax from FF now, simply smacks of the worst type of political opportunism, when if they had won the election, they had already committed themselves(and the country) to introducing it and have now handed responsibility for its introduction to FG/Lab.

gurramok

ilovesleep wrote: »

Apparently Ireland has the highest motor taxes (don't know how true this is. Read it on boards)

We also have high living costs:
Highest ESB
High food costs (don't kmow if we are the highest, but we are high).

You sure?, try living in Holland/Belgium!! Retail prices are on a pretty par in most EU countries now, their VAT rates and rip-off merchants are in plenty supply.

Our income taxes are not that harsh if you compare. Our indirect taxes maybe approaching par for the course but property tax ain't one of them.

Its funny though when this property tax was first mooted many months ago on boards, outrageous posters were going to emigrate to escape it. Then asked which country you will go to where there is no property tax, they struggled to name a first world country!!

sunshiner

Come on lets just call this tax by its real name.. yes its a WINDOW TAX, yup folks 100euro goes to 300 and 400 hundred euro within 3 years. They will go around and see what you have,where you have it,how many windows,land and so forth and then they decide how much more they will squeeze outta you,with some huge loop hole that the rich wont pay and the ordinary peasant/serf/tenant of ireland will cough up.
You can shake your head in denial all you want but no matter what,it will go up by a few hundred euro and then we will have the water charge. you will be expected to fork out about 38euro a week then,with an allowance of 20 litres a day allocated (thats one flush of a toilet).


next will be the ****ting tax oh wait theyre doing that with the poor people with septic tanks by making them spent 3k to 5k on a tank.

Seriously people WAKE UP!!!!!:rolleyes:

ilovesleep

heyjude wrote: »

People are right to be outraged about the new property tax/charge and particularly with the sneaky way it is being introduced. Its only €2 a week, they proclaim, yes, but thats only for this year, the plans are already being prepared for a full blown property tax that they expect to work out at €1000 per household per year, even more if you happen to live in a town/city where land/property prices are higher(even if amenities were low/non-existent when you moved in and most of the amenities aren't due to the state). In addition, they plan to bring in another €800 per household from water charges(probably more when the true number of households in calculated and exemptions are allowed for).

So we are talking about a combined €1800 a year and probably more, which is close to €35 a week or the equivalent of a massive tax increase, if the same amount were taken in an income tax deduction, especially for those on low wages. The €2 a week, also doesn't take account of the forthcoming VAT increase, the increase in the carbon tax on heating oil in the spring or the increase in health charges/health insurance.

The information they will be seeking now, will be used to access your level of tax under the later property tax, which is why opposition to the current €100 charge is so important.

Phil Hogan said that he had tried to keep the household charge as low as possible, but when is the Senate being abolished ? When are we going to see a detailed value for money audit of all state and semi state expenditure to seek out and eliminate waste, as well as ensuring we get the maximum benefit from every last Euro ? Its hard to believe that, given government expenditure of over €50bn, that waste, inefficiency and poor value for money don't account for more than the €160m that the new property charge will bring in. What have previous reports from the Comptroller and Auditor General found when they examined state expenditure ? Did they suggest that waste, inefficiencies and poor value for money represented less than a 0.3% of government spending ? If not, then why not sort these out first, before raising taxes again in the midst of a recession ?

The full blown property tax and water charges when they are introduced, will just be another honeypot for the government and public service to dip into to pay for inefficiency and overly generous pensions.

As for the argument that every other country in Europe has a property tax, that may or may not be true, but where they do exist, the local residents get local services such as refuse collections etc. Here we already pay for refuse collections, so we already pay for something that is covered by property tax in other countries, but we will face paying a property tax and continuing to pay for refuse collections as well, unlike other countries.

Finally, the introduction of a property tax was agreed by the Fianna Fail government with the troika at the time of the bank bailout. Any opposition to the tax from FF now, simply smacks of the worst type of political opportunism, when if they had won the election, they had already committed themselves(and the country) to introducing it and have now handed responsibility for its introduction to FG/Lab.

Do you have any sources to back those figures up? The 2000+ a year is hefty and thats not even including bins and also other living expenses like esb, food, rent/mortgage,

God, we are going to be taxed into a default.

No. not. Never!

probably

ArseBook

Won't be paying it.

If thousands of others aren't then why should I? Worked for the TV license.

We're paying you six figure salaries, go away out of that and come up with a proper piece of legislation that is worthy of the people that are paying you. Embarrassing that these people just lump a ton on everyone and expect us to accept it. I'll pay €500 if the thing is properly done. I won't pay €100 for a piece of nonsense stopgap. What have these people been doing with their time that they can't come up with an appropiate system for this?

We pay them huge amounts of money to make legislation approriate to the society that they live in.

Bedsit with a running tap? €100. Mansion with a swimming pool? €100.

WTF are we at?

zenno

ok you have to register first for this household charge and if you do not register then the government will start looking through peoples records on who already owns and payed for their house. but I wonder if the data protection law will help in this case ?.

as I melt my eyes into the data protection law :pac:


When you give your personal details to an organisation or individual, they have a duty to keep these details private and safe. This process is known as data protection. We refer to organisations or individuals who control the contents and use of your personal details as 'data controllers'.

Most of us give information about ourselves to groups such as Government bodies, banks, insurance companies, medical professionals and telephone companies to use their services or meet certain conditions. Organisations or individuals can also get information about us from other sources. Under data protection law, you have rights regarding the use of these personal details and data controllers have certain responsibilities in how they handle this information.

You have the right to data protection when your details are:

held on a computer;
held on paper or other manual form as part of a filing system; and
made up of photographs or video recordings of your image or recordings of your voice.


http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r

anyone here an expert in data protection ? is it possible to find a loophole ?. running out of ideas here.

tolosenc

Will anyone be paying the extra 2% VAT? That'll cost each household vastly more than €100 next year.

Also, I've picked the latest figures out of my arse: in 2017 it'll be 1.6 million per household.

And the audacity of ULA and their ilk saying things like "the fine for not paying is being used as a threat". Hello! That's what all fines are! You can't say there should be no punishment for not paying this, but bankers who broke no laws but merely managed a lot of money very, very poorly should go to prison.

zenno

tolosenc wrote: »

Will anyone be paying the extra 2% VAT? That'll cost each household vastly more than €100 next year.

Also, I've picked the latest figures out of my arse: in 2017 it'll be 1.6 million per household.

And the audacity of ULA and their ilk saying things like "the fine for not paying is being used as a threat". Hello! That's what all fines are! You can't say there should be no punishment for not paying this, but bankers who broke no laws but merely managed a lot of money very, very poorly should go to prison.

regarding the 2% vat rise, well I just won't be purchasing the little luxuries anymore to compansate for that rise so it will only affect the retail outlets from me not buying the things i used to, i also cut down on petrol spending and a few other things so there ye go.

rubberdiddies

Shenshen wrote: »

It's €100, that's around €8.33 a month.

I'm finding it absolutely baffling how people can get worked up over this, yet will happily spend as much on a single drink on a night out....

Get a grip. Seriously.

The €100 isn't the issue.
This amount is the bait being used to get you to register.
The real problem lies in 2 to 3 years time when that €100 turns into €1000.

I can't believe some people don't realise this.

psychward

irelandspurs wrote: »

I'm going to buy a tent

There will be an erection tax soon enough the way things are heading and I don't just mean tents

Cavehill Red

zenno wrote: »

ok you have to register first for this household charge and if you do not register then the government will start looking through peoples records on who already owns and payed for their house. but I wonder if the data protection law will help in this case ?.

as I melt my eyes into the data protection law :pac:


When you give your personal details to an organisation or individual, they have a duty to keep these details private and safe. This process is known as data protection. We refer to organisations or individuals who control the contents and use of your personal details as 'data controllers'.

Most of us give information about ourselves to groups such as Government bodies, banks, insurance companies, medical professionals and telephone companies to use their services or meet certain conditions. Organisations or individuals can also get information about us from other sources. Under data protection law, you have rights regarding the use of these personal details and data controllers have certain responsibilities in how they handle this information.

You have the right to data protection when your details are:

held on a computer;
held on paper or other manual form as part of a filing system; and
made up of photographs or video recordings of your image or recordings of your voice.


http://www.dataprotection.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/rights/RightsPlainEnglish.htm&CatID=16&m=r

anyone here an expert in data protection ? is it possible to find a loophole ?. running out of ideas here.

I'm no data protection expert, but I suspect they'll just wake up the snoring staff at the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds and ask for a full list of all residential addresses records from them. No data breach involved.

zenno

So much for data protection so :pac:. well there's got to be a loophole somewhere as this government like the last one are braindead so i'm sure they left something out that a person could use to block them, but maybe again that is wishful thinking.

Ghandee

flahavaj wrote: »

Most people saying they won't pay will old the first time a letter demanding 2.5k in fines arrives through the door.

This is what I don't get.
You have a voice also, and its only by sticking together, to give then a resounding 'no' that they'll listen and be unable to do anything about it.

melekalikimaka

Ghandee wrote: »

This is what I don't get.
You have a voice also, and its only by sticking together, to give then a resounding 'no' that they'll listen and be unable to do anything about it.

tbh the government needs all the money they can get, fining people 2.5k is ideal, you will all fall into their clever plan

tfitzgerald

Eventually we wil all have to pay it . Because of the fines and extra charges the will add to it

Ghandee

melekalikimaka wrote: »

tbh the government needs all the money they can get, fining people 2.5k is ideal, you will all fall into their clever plan

Just you go and be a sheep and follow suit so.

Or you could actually grow a set of balls and strand up to the cronies.

They'll get neither household charge nor fine from me. That sir, I can guarantee you.

melekalikimaka

Ghandee wrote: »

Just you go and be a sheep and follow suit so.

Or you could actually grow a set of balls and strand up to the cronies.

They'll get neither household charge nor fine from me. That sir, I can guarantee you.

i support the charge. we both will pay it, that is a certainty, tho who will end end paying more... I'm guessing it will be you

deelite

ilovesleep wrote: »

I remember the bin tags that you tie around your bin were 50p. It increased year, on year, on year. They got rid of the tags then and replaced it with the big bag which also increased year on year, yet the size of the bag decreased year on year. Bag is currently 10 euro a bag, with a weight restriction which means you can't fully fill it getting your moneys worth..

Forgot about tag system I pay the standing charge and then six euro per lift through Dublin City Council and No weight restriction so bin goes out rarely with the recycling (have heard the DCC are trying to get rid of the brown bins not sure how true this is though)

Just on another point "it's only 2 euro a week" - if that's so will I be able to pay this each week in the local post office because as far as I can see at the moment you have to pay by cheque or credit card to the City Council. They did mention you could pay by postal order but that would be expensive 2 euro postal order would cost I thinking 2.80 and then the stamp - I don't have credit card or cheque book.

I could afford the two euro each week but not the 100 in a lump sum

billybudd

I will pay it on one condition that is that everyone pays it, not depending in circumstances, quite sick of working 70 hours per week and seeing people not working having the same quality of life.

Haventh read about it much, but is it across the board? or do societies most ''vulnernable'' get the usual pass?

Ghandee

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i support the charge. we both will pay it, that is a certainty, tho who will end end paying more... I'm guessing it will be you

You support it. Good for you.

Your still not getting me though, perhaps take your head out of your hole.

I will not be paying a charge, and I will pay no fine either.


So guess away as to whom will be paying more, but by the looks of things, i'm going to be right on this one. I hope this doesn't see the light of day.

Enda already has done a few u-turns on some of his decisions, this one hopefully will be next.

TwoShedsJackson

CageWager wrote: »

Technically AIB owns my gaff, any chance I can send them the bill?

You own it, they have a 'charge' registered against it in the form of your mortgage. Probably to avoid possibly being legally liable for this sort of stuff.

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Yet people who bought a second home, especially those in the private sector, to have a pension are again being penalised.

Sorry but anyone who bought a house as a pension was idiotic in the extreme. This idea that house prices could only go up, if they had actually thought about it for ten minutes they might have realised how foolish it was.

Frank Black

Ghandee wrote: »

Just you go and be a sheep and follow suit so.

Or you could actually grow a set of balls and strand up to the cronies.

They'll get neither household charge nor fine from me. That sir, I can guarantee you.

Yeah, but you're based in Australia?

Would you be so gung-ho about not paying if you faced to possibilty of being fined and possibly imprisioned as a result of non-payment?

sparksfly

When I see two retired cops, (they are a married couple both 48 years of age) swanning around on full pension that I am contributing to while mine is f*cked, any further tax on my part is most unwelcome.

dxhound2005

Ghandee wrote: »

Just you go and be a sheep and follow suit so.

Or you could actually grow a set of balls and strand up to the cronies.

They'll get neither household charge nor fine from me. That sir, I can guarantee you.

Be prepared sir to live in your house until you die because you won't be able to sell it if the charge is not fully paid. And when you die if it is still outstanding it will be taken from your estate.

Biggins

I still don't know but my elderly parents say they are not paying it.

Meanwhile, in the news: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/revealed-plans-for-higher-property-tax-of-up-to-euro600-2965957.html

Revealed: Plans for higher property tax of up to €600

ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan last night set out the ground rules to create a full-blown property tax, which will cost many households substantially more than the controversial €100 charge.

Even as controversy rages over the new €100 charge, experts are to start working out within weeks what homeowners will pay when the permanent property tax is introduced in 2014.

Mr Hogan told the Irish Independent that the key elements for the tax would be:

The value of the property
Household income
Regional differences between property values
Payment of stamp duty by first-time buyers during the property boom
Waivers for council tenants and those getting state help to pay their mortgage.

The group of experts will have to work out a formula for how the property tax will be applied.

Mr Hogan said he could not begin to put a price on the tax until the experts have completed their work next summer.

However, there has already been speculation the average homeowner will end up paying between €200 and €250 a year, with owners of mansions paying about €600 a year.

The minister's decision to press on with plans to develop the property tax for 2014 comes as controversy rages over the €100 household charge.

Mr Hogan said he also expected that the new €100 charge would flush out owners of second homes who have been evading the existing €200 tax on second properties.

He called on the TDs currently encouraging people to boycott the tax to "resign their seats in the Dail", adding: "It flies in the face of democracy. They should consider their positions as democratically elected representatives if they are encouraging people to break the law passed by the national parliament."

Nine rebel TDs yesterday pledged not to pay the charge and said they would stand by those who boycott the tax.

Mr Hogan reserved special mention for Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins, commenting: "It's a remarkable state of affairs when the people against property taxes are socialists."

Mr Higgins said he was opposed to any property tax on the family home, even a site-valuation tax where the amount of tax to be paid rises with the value of the house. Instead, he wanted to see a wealth tax being applied to rich people.

The Dublin West TD is calling on householders to refuse to pay the new €100 tax and not to register their house for the charge.

The Government has warned that failing to pay the tax will result in penalties and could end up in a court appearance and fine of €2,500.

Mr Hogan said the new €100 will also catch out anyone dodging the €200 second-home tax because it will mean every house in the country will have to be registered.

Anybody who registers more than one will have to pay €100 for their home and then €300 for any subsequent property.

He indicated if a second property owner failed to pay the non-principal private residence tax since it was brought in three years ago, they would also be hit with back payments.

"This has the potential to identify any outstanding applicants for the second home charge because all properties will have to be registered.

"People took decisions on the basis of the law outlined in 2009 and they will have to deal with the consequences," he said.

The late-payment fees for the second homes at €20 a month are heavier than for the household charge.

For example, if no payment is made for five years, five separate €200 charges will be applied and will each attract a late payment fee of €20 per month.

Fees

The amount due after the five years will be about €4,500 of which amount €3,500 will be late-payment fees. And the property owner is liable to prosecution by the local authority to whom the payment is due with a maximum fine of €2,000, which is due to rise to €2,500.

The minister defended a provision in the legislation that will see the homeowners chased to the grave for the new €100 household charge.

A clause in the legislation deals with cases where someone who is the sole owner of a home dies with the household charge unpaid.

Mr Hogan rejected suggestions the unpaid charges be struck off upon death.

He said it would be unfair to homeowners who pay the charge.

The solution the minister came up with was to stop the clock on the penalties and interest building up once the homeowner dies -- provided the person who takes on the estate pays the outstanding bill.

Sam Vimes

MungBean wrote: »

Doest fit into that description at all actually. Unless they are taxing based on the value its not a wealth tax. A wealth tax could be based on different aspects of someones wealth depending on the view of whoever is proposing it (Socialist Party advocating a wealth tax on those who have accumulated wealth above a certain margin or those who earn above a certain margin). I was just pointing out that the Socialist Party wouldnt consider the primary residence as something not to be included when evaluating the wealth tax they have proposed. That my understanding of their position anyway.

Doesnt change the fact that this is not a wealth tax though.

The wiki definition doesn't say anything about the tax being based on the value of the wealth either. And it seems that what is getting people most angry about this tax is the future increases when they do plan to have different levels based on the value of the property

But I see what you're saying. The socialist party want a wealth tax, just not this kind of wealth tax. The tax can only affect the super rich, not those who only have an asset worth a few hundred thousand (as long as they're living in that asset)

osnola ibax

Malignant Paddy wrote: »

I was an Irish person, however I have become a sheep. Woke up one morning not so long ago and discovered that that I was no longer Irish, in fact I was no longer a human being. I had become a sheep. At first I was very upset about this, however to my relief I discovered the very next day that I was surrounded by other humans that had become sheep also.

I tried to ask the sheep I met that morning upon leaving the house, as to what had happened to me, however I found I could only say "Baaaaaaa, Baaaaaaaaa". This was very upsetting. It came as no surprise when he responded by saying "Baaaaaaaaaaaaa, Baaaaaaaaaaa", I found this comforting in a strange kind of way. I was happy that maybe I was not alone.

And I was to discover that I was not. I have many friends now. We talk a lot together, we don't appear to understand what we are saying to each other, nor does our talk appear to have any consequence, but we talk anyway.

I dont mind being a sheep now. Being sheared is now something I look forward to. I don't know why I objected to being sheared as a human, its rather pleasurable now that I'm a sheep. I seem to remember being somewhat ashamed at what I was before, not sure if it was that I was human or if that sense of shame came from being Irish.

I'm a sheep now so it hardly matters. I get sheared, sometimes I get skinned, not completely skinned of course, just a nick here and there. Thats a sheeps life, so I guess I can't complain. Some of the other sheep complain a lot, those are the ones still in denial. Being a sheep takes some getting used to for some.

My feet are wet again. Not sure if its rain, or one of the other sheep is pissing down my leg, again.

A typing sheep - aaaaaaaagh

rubberdiddies

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i support the charge. we both will pay it, that is a certainty, tho who will end end paying more... I'm guessing it will be you

If the majority refuse to register/pay then it will have to be scrapped eventually. Precedent is the water charges in the 90's.

People talking about going to jail etc is absolute rubbish.

When FG was in opposition they were against this tax. They were against it during the election campaign. So basically they lied to us on promises to get elected. As well as other lies to get elected. Not surprising as this is politics and generally we accept the lies from every government.

In the real world a verbal agreement is a binding contract so why do these guys get away with lying and why do we accept it?

The Fine Gael TDs are constantly bleating on about how their hand was forced and that they had to introduce this tax to satisfy the EU/IMF, yet we know that the EU/IMF have said it doesn't matter how the money is generated so long as it is generated. So yet more lies.

If you live in an apartment and are currently paying €1200 per year in management fees and are expected to pay up to another €600 in a few years on top of mortgage etc then that's terrible.

Pay the charge so, but be prepared to pay €600 or so in 3 years. Be prepared for that to be €2000 in 10 to 15 years and be prepared for your kids/grandkids to pay multiples of that forever.

Or else make a stand now for yourself and future generations