Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

pred racer

I wont be paying.

There are a couple of reasons for this( not in any order)
1 i now spend more than half my time in france as thats where i had to go to get work.

2 i dont see why i should....i paid them stamp duty already, i already pay for my water from a private scheme, i have my own septic tank, the bin collections wont come to my house (neither would the school bus when the kids were in the local school) the public road leading to my house was only fit for tractors, the council refused to repair it so myself and my neighbours had to club together to get it surfaced! I fail to see what they have done to deserve this 100 euro.

3 i dont see how they can track me if i dont volunteer;)
My esb is in my ex-wifes name (wont let me change it unless i give them €350 deposit) I pay my income tax etc in france. I dont claim any benifits here and im not involved in any of the other bodies proposed in the papers to track us down.

mfceiling

Wibbs wrote: »

Though let's see how long it'll remain at 100 quid. I'll make a prediction here that within 5 years(if it survives it's birth) it'll be closer to 500 quid or more.

As for the tax itself? I have no real objections to a household charge, however I do object the way it's being implemented. It should be damn well means tested. As Shenshen pointed out it's not much over the price of a pint of beer in a Dublin nightclub per month. If it is so cheap why are SW claimants exempt? There are plenty of our citizens out there earning less annually than quite a few on SW(when one includes medical cards, council housing and other "hidden" financial benefits) and they'll have to pay it. And it will apply to all pensioners too regardless of financial status. It'll apply to families already struggling to pay mortgages on houses, many of whom will have paid a large stamp duty tax on top of the tax they pay on their monthly mortgage repayments. Yet those entitled to what amounts to a "free" house won't have to forego that Nightclub pint?

This is supposed to raise 160 million and that's fine. Drop in the ocean mind you. How much are we borrowing to pay for overseas aid? It's at least triple that the last time I saw figures. Secondly it would serve the government better if they implemented real checks and balances and cross dept. cooperation in the fight against SW fraud. Never mind the payments, that's another days work, but SW fraud is a huge problem in this country. I can think of many taking the piss on that score and I'll warrant I'm not alone in that. I'd bet the farm that doing so would raise far more than 160 million quid and streamline the whole SW bill which is one of the largest bills this country pays out. It would also help get the financial aid to those folks who actually need it, because I also know people who should actually be getting more support. Of course this would require a minister/government to actually grow a pair grow a clue and implement this. But sadly I suspect that will be on the backburner and they'll just set up some overpriced and toothless quango of "consultants" to create a report outlining the fcuking obvious.

The tax itself is entirely for revenue generation. We already pay for services to our houses(bins etc). When the water charge comes in that will be pretty much complete(plus water treatment tax for rural dwellers). This charge is not for any service. Its not like car tax which (in theory) is for upkeep of road infrastructure. However if I put my car up on blocks and take it off the road I don't pay road tax as I'm not availing of that service. Ditto if I throw my telly in a skip I don't have to pay for Ryan Tubridy's suits. This is a tax on those deemed most likely to pay.

TL;DR? As a tax I've no objection, but it's implementation is IMHO seriously faulty. That's what I object to.

That's a great post^^
Can see that it is needed but it really will be a push for some families.
Also the uncertainty is worrying people....100 this year but what about next year or the year after....wages aren't going up but the cost of living is....what is the tipping point??

eth0

pred racer wrote: »

I wont be paying.

There are a couple of reasons for this( not in any order)
1 i now spend more than half my time in france as thats where i had to go to get work.

2 i dont see why i should....i paid them stamp duty already, i already pay for my water from a private scheme, i have my own septic tank, the bin collections wont come to my house (neither would the school bus when the kids were in the local school) the public road leading to my house was only fit for tractors, the council refused to repair it so myself and my neighbours had to club together to get it surfaced! I fail to see what they have done to deserve this 100 euro.

3 i dont see how they can track me if i dont volunteer;)
My esb is in my ex-wifes name (wont let me change it unless i give them €350 deposit) I pay my income tax etc in france. I dont claim any benifits here and im not involved in any of the other bodies proposed in the papers to track us down.

Hope it works out for you

D1stant

Zebra3 wrote: »

Look at the huge sums of money that are gonna be handed over to foreign failed gamblers next year, and look at how much will be brought in from this new tax.

If we weren't paying out for gambling losses, we could go without this new tax.

You could just as easily say lets scrap foreign aid - then we wouldnt need this tax either. They are seperate things

But you do need to raise much more tax from somewhere because the country is operating at a loss of 20bn per year - irrespective of banking debt

Im not sure FG are that bright but they must be happy that the 2 most emotive issues out of the budget (HH charge and disability cut) are also the easiest economically to roll back on. I have this vision of Noonan whispering 'Ok lets scrap the HH charge, the serfs will think they have won - meanwhile CPA and pensions are still intact'

Zebra3

D1stant wrote: »

You could just as easily say lets scrap foreign aid - then we wouldnt need this tax either. They are seperate things

They are not seperate things.

Income and expenditure are always linked.

And there is a huge moral difference between spending money on improving the lives of the poor abroad and handing wad loads of cash to rich foreigners.

And of course if money is being wasted on foreign aid, it just should be stopped asap.

Son Of A Vidic

melekalikimaka wrote: »

well why is it not ok? taxes need to be increased to support out great social welfare system and inflated p.s.

Now don't avoid the core reasoning behind tax increases. Banking incompetence, developer greed and political ineptitude. Don't be deluded into thinking this is all so altruistic and for the good of the country. Covering the risks of the German and French banks is a costly business you know.

Kev.OC

Not applicable to me. However i know a lot of people who are opposed to this, and if i'd a house i'd be one of them.

Road taxes, you're using the roads and paying for the maintenance and repair of them. That's grand.

Water charges, you're paying for the treatment of the water prior to using it. Again, no problems with that.

What annoys me is the principle of this new household charge. You buy a house (which you're taxed on) and you spend years working hard to pay it off. Then you finally finish your mortgage, so you own your house outright, and all of a sudden you've to pay tax on it.

I am strongly against paying tax on something that you fully own. And that's what it is.

eth0

Kev.OC wrote: »

I am strongly against paying tax on something that you fully own. And that's what it is.

Same here but it takes the biscuit that they'd target something as basic as your primary home with this kind of thing.

Carlow52

Shenshen wrote: »

It's €100, that's around €8.33 a month.

I'm finding it absolutely baffling how people can get worked up over this, yet will happily spend as much on a single drink on a night out....

Get a grip. Seriously.

At least with a drink you get a piss, for this you will get piss all

Wibbs

D1stant wrote: »

You could just as easily say lets scrap foreign aid - then we wouldnt need this tax either. They are seperate things

Could say it? I will say it. We should scrap or seriously reduce foreign aid. We're borrowing money to send it. Imagine a small business owner who goes bankrupt owing huge debts. He tries to cut back and streamline these debts and, get a small job and live within his means. Can you imagine his accountants face if he discovered he was using part of his loan to set up a direct debit to Trocaire every month? An amount that was at least three times that of one of his new earning ideas? His accountant would wonder was he having an acid flashback from his partying university days. Yet that's what we're doing as a country currently.

But you do need to raise much more tax from somewhere because the country is operating at a loss of 20bn per year - irrespective of banking debt

Yes we are. Though the current plan seems to be more about squeezing the obvious and the easy target. Akin to if the Guards claimed their conviction rate is up because they're running more road blocks checking for car tax. Far better ways exist to solve this problem, or at least aim at solving it. Yes increase taxes, but increase efficiency in preexisting outgoings. Earning more is great, but spending less makes what you earn work better for you. I mentioned streamlining and increasing the efficiency of the whole SW bill. Cracking down on fraud and over payment would save quite a chunk of change. I'd put money down it would be ten times the return of this household tax. There are other areas we could save in too.

And BTW WTF is going on with the ULA? Those balloonheads are constantly going on about "more wealth taxes". Eh this property tax is a wealth tax. People on the dole won't be paying it. Neither will renters(directly). Now I'll admit I like Joe Higgins as a person, but good God if this is what passes for the left in this country. It's up there with the statement made by someone on this forum way back in that day who described Enda Kenny as a statesman. Yep we're boned.

CageWager

Kev.OC wrote: »

I am strongly against paying tax on something that you fully own. And that's what it is.

Technically AIB owns my gaff, any chance I can send them the bill?

John Mason

yeah, i have no problem paying it.

its the price i have to pay for living in a country that has no self control, and has a very strange inability to say no to banks when they are offering money or when they want money.

Kev.OC

CageWager wrote: »

Technically AIB owns my gaff, any chance I can send them the bill?

'Course you can. But we all know the response you'll get.

dxhound2005

pred racer wrote: »

I wont be paying.

There are a couple of reasons for this( not in any order)
1 i now spend more than half my time in france as thats where i had to go to get work.

2 i dont see why i should....i paid them stamp duty already, i already pay for my water from a private scheme, i have my own septic tank, the bin collections wont come to my house (neither would the school bus when the kids were in the local school) the public road leading to my house was only fit for tractors, the council refused to repair it so myself and my neighbours had to club together to get it surfaced! I fail to see what they have done to deserve this 100 euro.

3 i dont see how they can track me if i dont volunteer;)
My esb is in my ex-wifes name (wont let me change it unless i give them €350 deposit) I pay my income tax etc in france. I dont claim any benifits here and im not involved in any of the other bodies proposed in the papers to track us down.

It sounds as if you don't really need that house but things will become complicated if you haven't paid the charge and you want to sell it.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/household-charge-property-tax-more-details.html

Selling House : A vendor of a residential property must pay any household charge, late payment fee and late payment interest due on the property and give a certificate of discharge, exemption or waiver in respect of each liability date during the vendor’s ownership to a purchaser on or before the sale or transfer can be completed.

HovaBaby

Shenshen wrote: »

It's €100, that's around €8.33 a month.

I'm finding it absolutely baffling how people can get worked up over this, yet will happily spend as much on a single drink on a night out....

Get a grip. Seriously.

What about in 2014/15 when the charge is €1000 per annum? Plus the water charges on top of that.

All the while an even fatter Brian Cowen will be laughing his ass off with his triple chin because of the hidden line in the bill stating *ex TD's exempt*. (though he would be earning a 6 figure pension, so that'd be a pittance to him anyways)

blastman

where do i go from here wrote: »

Lemmings don't pay tax.

They don't jump off cliffs either.

Shame politicians/bankers/developers don't either..

DantezDevil

Every Irish people should be a shame of themselves. You just let your government to push u over the edge.. Have some balls and fight back. The money they collect from the Household Charge will go on waste!! (32.7 million Euro spend in Landfill plans in Lusk, Dublin was CANCEL). That's where all the money is going to.. If we fight back today, there will be a future for our children. If you think we had it bad. Think about our children future. Taxation is important but the government need to use it wisely. Not just throw away and waste the taxpayers money. FIGHT NOW, FOR A BETTER FUTURE FOR OUR CHILDREN!!

Wattle

Lemlin wrote: »

What exactly is unjust about paying a €100 household charge? I find it particularly funny that Mick Wallace is refusing to pay the charge.

Good man Mick. Stand up for the poor. What about all those workers whose pensions you didn't pay Mick? Or the 20 million that you owe to Nama and we are now paying for Mick? While you collect a Dail salary Mick? Or the worker who had to take you to court to get paid Mick?

Looks like Mick is just following the norm for him. Trying to get away with not paying whatever he can avoid.

You're slagging Mick Wallace off for not supporting the poor while supporting a tax that will push more people into poverty. Great logic there.

gigino

I cannot understand why people - already hard pressed would want to contribute to a new tax for the government which will only raise 50 million euro, when government spending on the public sector pay + pensions is 10,000 million more than it was 10 years ago. Spot the elephant in the room versus the fly.
I'm not contributing to government coffers any more. Its not morally right.

Zebra3

Kev.OC wrote: »

Road taxes

Hasn't been road tax for years.

LordSutch

Household charge, 'possible' increases in the coming years.

€100 in 2012

€1,200 in 2013

€3000 in 2016 ?

I rent so no doubt the charge will be passed on to me.

I believe that this tax will rise year after year once the govt. sees that so many have been willingly paying it.

I believe in the tax system-it can work. However over taxing people can only lead to negative impact.

Yes it is only €100 a year. But that is €100 that many people who are already struggling will have to find elsewhere from their budget. Something else will have to be left out as a result.
I dont think that someone who is not in this horrible position has a right to make comment/judgement on those poor souls whom this will actually be hitting hard as a result of this extra stretching.

I am no expert on taxation by any means but I was under the impression the Universal Social Charge was brought in to help cover LA costs?

This property tax is just a plain tax in my eyes. The govt have taxed everything they can so they have begun making up taxes.

We should have a thread for the most imaginative next Govt invented tax.....

Slick50

TheTorment wrote: »

We should have a thread for the most imaginative next Govt invented tax.....

A dangerous suggestion, giving the knobheads new ideas!

Arnold Layne

TheTorment wrote: »

I rent so no doubt the charge will be passed on to me.

And why shouldn't you pay?

If it is a household tax to pay for local services & amenties, then everyone living in a house should pay. If it is a property tax, then those that have more than one house are already paying a tax of €200 euro per year.

Once again the "vulnerable" in society as Labour depict them, i.e. those who have never never worked a day in their life, receive the medical card, fuel allowance, electricity & bin charges paid for them are exempt from this.

Yet people who bought a second home, especially those in the private sector, to have a pension are again being penalised.

Is this the lesson for future generations, i.e. underachieve and not pay for anything but expect society to pay for them?

deelite

I'm paying reason for me is when they brought in the bin tax I didn't pay along with others - I however was not entitled to a waiver like others were. Went to the councillor who was holding all the meetings about not paying the bin charge - he said there was nothing they could do for me but I should consider throwing my rubbish directly into back of bin truck!!!!!

dxhound2005

deelite wrote: »

I'm paying reason for me is when they brought in the bin tax I didn't pay along with others - I however was not entitled to a waiver like others were. Went to the councillor who was holding all the meetings about not paying the bin charge - he said there was nothing they could do for me but I should consider throwing my rubbish directly into back of bin truck!!!!!

And I wonder where the politicians who are now exhorting people not to pay will be when householders who follow their advice are caught up in horrendous legal complications if they ever have to sell their house.

Teyla Emmagan

Arnold Layne wrote: »

And why shouldn't you pay?

Once again the "vulnerable" in society as Labour depict them, i.e. those who have never never worked a day in their life, receive the medical card, fuel allowance, electricity & bin charges paid for them are exempt from this.

Yet people who bought a second home, especially those in the private sector, to have a pension are again being penalised.

Is this the lesson for future generations, i.e. underachieve and not pay for anything but expect society to pay for them?

Ah yes! I detest this 'vulnerable in society' thing. It really gets my goat up. This is something the trade unions (in particular) tend to bang on about endlessly, whereas they are only there to protect their own members, who aren't in that category at all. IMO, the only really vulnerable people in our society are the homeless, or those on the margins (and none of them will have to contribute to this tax). And there's a big divide between those folks and the people who are actually comfortable enough on SW. It's the most misused term in our lexicon.

And I do think the way we are going would prevent anyone from putting their own neck out there, which is pathetic when you consider what the SME sector contribute to the economy of this country.

Anyway, I will be paying the tax. When you look at the TD eejits who are advocating not paying it, it's obviously they're using the 'general man' for their own political agenda.

Frank Black

Although I was originally considering paying this tax, the well reasoned, logical and sensibly argued posts of those advocating non-payment has convinced me of my error.

I ESPECIALLY LIKE POSTS WHICH END LIKE THIS!

Sam Vimes

I've heard several people from the socialist party and the people before profit alliance etc criticising the government for taxes that target the poor and calling for a wealth tax, i.e. a tax on assets

Isn't that what this is?

Wibbs

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I've heard several people from the socialist party and the people before profit alliance etc criticising the government for taxes that target the poor and calling for a wealth tax, i.e. a tax on assets

Isn't that what this is?

+1 Preaching to the choir Sam, preaching to the choir.

Me earlier wrote:

And BTW WTF is going on with the ULA? Those balloonheads are constantly going on about "more wealth taxes". Eh this property tax is a wealth tax. People on the dole won't be paying it. Neither will renters(directly).

Of course it's a "wealth tax". Jesus with most of the left in this country we should just pretend to build a new motorway smack through Clonmacnoise. This will lure them away from the rest of us who learned to stand upright and leave them to sleep in binbags up local trees, while their mammy(more likely Mommy) and daddy(father) pay for it.