Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Ghandee

black francis wrote: »

Although I was originally considering paying this tax, the well reasoned, logical and sensibly argued posts of those advocating non-payment has convinced me of my error.

I ESPECIALLY LIKE POSTS WHICH END LIKE THIS!

Frank Black

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I've heard several people from the socialist party and the people before profit alliance etc criticising the government for taxes that target the poor and calling for a wealth tax, i.e. a tax on assets

Isn't that what this is?

I think you'll find that 'logic' is not part of the make up of the politicians you refer to. They're more interested in playing the populist card than actually proposing solutions to the mess we're in.

The real problem is that there are enough dumb voters out there who buy into this sh;t and elect them.

melekalikimaka

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Now don't avoid the core reasoning behind tax increases. Banking incompetence, developer greed and political ineptitude. Don't be deluded into thinking this is all so altruistic and for the good of the country. Covering the risks of the German and French banks is a costly business you know.

look at government income and government expenditure then get back to me on that buddy

hamlet1

odnauq wrote: »

The owner of the property pays and there will be a hefty fine for non payment.

It makes me so angry that the landlord has to pay when there is already a e200 tax on a second house that you might have.:mad:

MungBean

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I've heard several people from the socialist party and the people before profit alliance etc criticising the government for taxes that target the poor and calling for a wealth tax, i.e. a tax on assets

Isn't that what this is?

No this is a property tax, you will be taxed for having property in your name. Its not a wealth tax, tax on assets or any other kind of tax the Socialist Party advocate. The family home/primary residence should not be taxed as wealth as far as the Socialist Party see it.

hamlet1

Arnold Layne wrote: »

And why shouldn't you pay?

If it is a household tax to pay for local services & amenties, then everyone living in a house should pay. If it is a property tax, then those that have more than one house are already paying a tax of €200 euro per year.

Once again the "vulnerable" in society as Labour depict them, i.e. those who have never never worked a day in their life, receive the medical card, fuel allowance, electricity & bin charges paid for them are exempt from this.

Yet people who bought a second home, especially those in the private sector, to have a pension are again being penalised.

Is this the lesson for future generations, i.e. underachieve and not pay for anything but expect society to pay for them?

you have said that perfectly,I completely agree with you

dixiefly

I will pay it. As far as I am concerned we elected this government and have to give them a chance to govern.

Personally I have more of an issue with their education cuts and that disability cut that they may rescind than the household charge. It was a typical FF stunt that removed rates in the first place. If we had had a proper equitable household charge instead of the stamp duty over the last 20 years we would not be in the mess we are in now.

gigino

dixiefly wrote: »

If we had had a proper equitable household charge instead of the stamp duty over the last 20 years we would not be in the mess we are in now.

If public sector pay + pensions had not been doubled in the past 10 years from 9 billion to 18 billion per year, the government not be in as bad a mess either and trying to scrape a few bob together.

ilovesleep

deelite wrote: »

I'm paying reason for me is when they brought in the bin tax I didn't pay along with others - I however was not entitled to a waiver like others were. Went to the councillor who was holding all the meetings about not paying the bin charge - he said there was nothing they could do for me but I should consider throwing my rubbish directly into back of bin truck!!!!!

I remember the bin tags that you tie around your bin were 50p. It increased year, on year, on year. They got rid of the tags then and replaced it with the big bag which also increased year on year, yet the size of the bag decreased year on year. Bag is currently 10 euro a bag, with a weight restriction which means you can't fully fill it getting your moneys worth..

Sam Vimes

MungBean wrote: »

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I've heard several people from the socialist party and the people before profit alliance etc criticising the government for taxes that target the poor and calling for a wealth tax, i.e. a tax on assets

Isn't that what this is?

No this is a property tax, you will be taxed for having property in your name. Its not a wealth tax, tax on assets or any other kind of tax the Socialist Party advocate. The family home/primary residence should not be taxed as wealth as far as the Socialist Party see it.

According to Wikipedia "A wealth tax is generally conceived of as a levy based on the aggregate value of all household holdings actually accumulated as purchasing power stock (rather than flow), including owner-occupied housing ; cash , bank deposits , money funds , and savings in insurance  and pension plans ; investment in real estate  and unincorporated businesses ; andcorporate stock , financial securities , and personal trusts"

A property tax seems to fit quite well into that definition. It doesn't say anything about "unless the asset is a home"........

ilovesleep

melekalikimaka wrote: »

look at government income and government expenditure then get back to me on that buddy

I suggest you look at the sheer volume of wastage that's happening in the country. Like an example would be the prisons - why are they run like holiday camps. Reform them into prisons without all their luxuries. Dismantle some idle quangos.

There are also wastage happening in LAs. Stop that wasting.

For Forks Sake

D1stant wrote: »

But you do need to raise much more tax from somewhere because the country is operating at a loss of 20bn per year - irrespective of banking debt

This is they key point, if this government were to last its full term of 5 years, and do nothing to address the current deficit, that would be just under 100 Billion euro of additional deficit on the current side alone, nothing to do with the banking mess. Hence the need to bring in extra revenue on the taxation side, as there's not a lot can be done to deal with wastage on the spending side until the CPA expires.

gigino

For Forks Sake wrote: »

as there's not a lot can be done to deal with wastage on the spending side until the CPA expires.

answer is to stop public service pay increments - these are not in the CPA I think, yet the public sector pay increases are costing more than the property tax will bring in.

I think the CPA should be scrapped now anyway as the country is in a worse shape than when it was signed

MungBean

Sam Vimes wrote: »

According to Wikipedia "A wealth tax is generally conceived of as a levy based on the aggregate value of all household holdings actually accumulated as purchasing power stock (rather than flow), including owner-occupied housing ; cash , bank deposits , money funds , and savings in insurance and pension plans ; investment in real estate and unincorporated businesses ; andcorporate stock , financial securities , and personal trusts"

A property tax seems to fit quite well into that definition. It doesn't say anything about "unless the asset is a home"........

Doest fit into that description at all actually. Unless they are taxing based on the value its not a wealth tax. A wealth tax could be based on different aspects of someones wealth depending on the view of whoever is proposing it (Socialist Party advocating a wealth tax on those who have accumulated wealth above a certain margin or those who earn above a certain margin). I was just pointing out that the Socialist Party wouldnt consider the primary residence as something not to be included when evaluating the wealth tax they have proposed. That my understanding of their position anyway.

Doesnt change the fact that this is not a wealth tax though.

ilovesleep

For Forks Sake wrote: »

This is they key point, if this government were to last its full term of 5 years, and do nothing to address the current deficit, that would be just under 100 Billion euro of additional deficit on the current side alone, nothing to do with the banking mess. Hence the need to bring in extra revenue on the taxation side, as there's not a lot can be done to deal with wastage on the spending side until the CPA expires.

We have a massive deficit because the last government increased spending year on year on year built on the back of one off taxes from the property bubble. Ireland became uncompetitive with rising prices as a result.

Then the bust:
Banks failed, stopped lending - property industry failed - people lost jobs.
We became too expensive forcing manufacturing industries out. More job losses.
Which hits retail and other establishments - restaurants, pubs etc more job losses
Due to being too expensive the tourism industry has also collasped.

We now have extra pressure on the states finances. Not enough revenue being collected, and extra demand on spending due to unemployment.

Spending has to come down drastically and along with hikes. I'm not just talking about SW spending. It has to come down all across the board.

But then just last week it was reported Enda Kenny and Joan Burton awarded their advisors pay increases. Also increases in their office expenses.

(all of this budget stuff should be over and done with. FF in power in 08 didn't do half enough when they were in a position to tackle a situation that would spiral out of control. The FFcukers really fcuked us up).

gurramok

Interesting debate. Tell me why should Ireland be probably only country in the EU not to have a property tax of 100quid? Its sky high is most of the EU. And this Ireland as you know is in the hands of the IMF.

And those who moan about stamp duty paid already, if that stamp duty was not there you would have been charged the difference by the builder, does the figure 317,500 not ring a bell in the bubble years?

Pete M.

ilovesleep wrote: »

We have a massive deficit because the last government increased spending year on year on year built on the back of one off taxes from the property bubble. Ireland became uncompetitive

eh I think the reason we have a massive deficit is because of the FF governments bank guarantee. Otherwise we wouldn't be so badly off.

The debt that is dragging us down now is private debt, not our national sovereign debt, which we could probably handle quite well if that's all there was.

And that is one of the main reasons why I won't be paying the household tax.
I have no problem whatsoever paying my own debts. But I'll be fcuked if I'm going to pay someone elses.

The non payment campaign is an opportunity for people to protest against the continued sh1tehawking of successive governments to kowtowing to private banks. Some on here give out about street protesting and it's futility and take pot shots at those who would do it. This is a far more effective and necessary way of protesting.

ilovesleep wrote: »

The FFcukers really fcuked us up).

Can't argue with that though

gigino wrote: »

answer is to stop public service pay increments - these are not in the CPA I think, yet the public sector pay increases are costing more than the property tax will bring in.

I think the CPA should be scrapped now anyway as the country is in a worse shape than when it was signed

Stopping increments in the public sector is the answer to shag all. It would disproportionately, in a big way, affect younger, less well paid workers who are already in trouble as it is. And again, like the household tax, those already on hefty salaries would be fine with it, because it won't affect them!

And the Country, for sure, is worse off now than before the CPA. But it isn't the fault of the CPA or the Unions or anyone on here.

It's the fault of FF and FG and Labour TDs, in successive governments, who were elected, on some very dubious promises and who listened to all of the wrong people when it came to making very fcuking important decisions.

Democracy is a funny old thing and the will of the people and all that jazz and I don't think it will be stifled by a system, like we have here in Ireland, which has been imposed on it.

This campaign will cause ructions and it's ructions we need I reckon.

tl;dr

No way! We won't pay! :pac:

Senna

It wont stay at €100 for long, afaik it will change in 2014 to a larger amount based on size of property, location etc. The only thing i hope for is that shower of pricks in Leinster House will decide on the criteria for the new property tax soon and publish it, allowing people to be prepared for what will be a sizeable amount for many.

But of course it will probably be announce 2 weeks before Christmas 2013 and ruin what is normally the bread and butter sales season for thousands of small business around Ireland.

eth0

gurramok wrote: »

Interesting debate. Tell me why should Ireland be probably only country in the EU not to have a property tax of 100quid? Its sky high is most of the EU. And this Ireland as you know is in the hands of the IMF.

And those who moan about stamp duty paid already, if that stamp duty was not there you would have been charged the difference by the builder, does the figure 317,500 not ring a bell in the bubble years?

Why should they have property tax in other countries? Maybe other EU countries should re-consider theirs instead of us following them as usual.

For Forks Sake

Pete M. wrote: »

eh I think the reason we have a massive deficit is because of the FF governments bank guarantee. Otherwise we wouldn't be so badly off.

Wrong there, leaving the bank guarantee aside, the state spends just under 20 billion euro more per annum than it takes in from taxation. If a business was ran in such a fashion it would have been closed long ago. Hence the need for additional revenue raising measures such as the property tax.

There's far too much guff from the ill-informed as soon as taxation changes are mentioned (blah blah rabble rabble bankers developers politicians rabble rabble) who don't seen to realise that the country doesn't presently have the revenue necessary to meet the day to day bills let alone anything to do with the banking crisis.

Yet ask the same folks what should be cut to narrow the gap on the expenditure side and they break out in a dose of parish pumpism that a Healy-Rae would be proud of.

Ask them what additional measures should be taken to increase income and you get soundbites like "tax the rich" which might come across well in the media to the ill-informed, but in reality would not be the solution to the current expenditure deficit, and certainly not a sustainable solution.

Malignant Paddy

I was an Irish person, however I have become a sheep. Woke up one morning not so long ago and discovered that that I was no longer Irish, in fact I was no longer a human being. I had become a sheep. At first I was very upset about this, however to my relief I discovered the very next day that I was surrounded by other humans that had become sheep also.

I tried to ask the sheep I met that morning upon leaving the house, as to what had happened to me, however I found I could only say "Baaaaaaa, Baaaaaaaaa". This was very upsetting. It came as no surprise when he responded by saying "Baaaaaaaaaaaaa, Baaaaaaaaaaa", I found this comforting in a strange kind of way. I was happy that maybe I was not alone.

And I was to discover that I was not. I have many friends now. We talk a lot together, we don't appear to understand what we are saying to each other, nor does our talk appear to have any consequence, but we talk anyway.

I dont mind being a sheep now. Being sheared is now something I look forward to. I don't know why I objected to being sheared as a human, its rather pleasurable now that I'm a sheep. I seem to remember being somewhat ashamed at what I was before, not sure if it was that I was human or if that sense of shame came from being Irish.

I'm a sheep now so it hardly matters. I get sheared, sometimes I get skinned, not completely skinned of course, just a nick here and there. Thats a sheeps life, so I guess I can't complain. Some of the other sheep complain a lot, those are the ones still in denial. Being a sheep takes some getting used to for some.

My feet are wet again. Not sure if its rain, or one of the other sheep is pissing down my leg, again.

gurramok

eth0 wrote: »

Why should they have property tax in other countries? Maybe other EU countries should re-consider theirs instead of us following them as usual.

Thats a strange one!

Perhaps they have qualified systems that work quite efficiently well in delivering quality services from a property tax? Countries which are in the first world and have this tax seem to do quite well on budget day!

Johro

No.
Isn't there a campaign? They should call it the 'I will in me hole' campaign.

eth0

gurramok wrote: »

Thats a strange one!

Perhaps they have qualified systems that work quite efficiently well in delivering quality services from a property tax? Countries which are in the first world and have this tax seem to do quite well on budget day!

Ireland is hardly the only country in the Eu with budget problems.

So they manage to cover a couple percent of council spending with this kind of tax (therefore freeing up more money for the national government to waste) but everybody gets this massive bill to pay every year for nothing in return regardless of how much they are earning

They should get rid of this and a lot of other taxes. Car tax (put on petrol instead), TV license (Sell RTE), 2nd property tax could all be done away with over here. There probably a few other special purpose taxes that can be got rid of as well

Pete M.

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Wrong there, leaving the bank guarantee aside, the state spends just under 20 billion euro more per annum than it takes in from taxation. If a business was ran in such a fashion it would have been closed long ago. Hence the need for additional revenue raising measures such as the property tax.

There's far too much guff from the ill-informed as soon as taxation changes are mentioned (blah blah rabble rabble bankers developers politicians rabble rabble) who don't seen to realise that the country doesn't presently have the revenue necessary to meet the day to day bills let alone anything to do with the banking crisis.

Yet ask the same folks what should be cut to narrow the gap on the expenditure side and they break out in a dose of parish pumpism that a Healy-Rae would be proud of.

Ask them what additional measures should be taken to increase income and you get soundbites like "tax the rich" which might come across well in the media to the ill-informed, but in reality would not be the solution to the current expenditure deficit, and certainly not a sustainable solution.

You mean I'm wrong when you leave aside the bank guarantee then?

But I'm right otherwise I reckon :cool: I can't really leave it aside tbh

I'm well aware that the columns don't balance too well and that FF did a great job of spending money we didn't have.

But our Country isn't a business, thankfully, so I don't have to think business based solutions only.

I'll agree that there is lots of 'blah-blah' and 'rabble-rabble' but it's coming from the bankers, developers and politicians.

What's coming from people on the ground is true unrest and try, as you may, to dis-encourage it or explain away the true reasons for the inequality, with economic theory, it's only going to get louder if we don't have real and tangible change.

People are dead right to be giving out and voicing their unhappiness.

Rabble Rabble!!!

gurramok

eth0 wrote: »

Ireland is hardly the only country in the Eu with budget problems.

So they manage to cover a couple percent of council spending with this kind of tax (therefore freeing up more money for the national government to waste) but everybody gets this massive bill to pay every year for nothing in return regardless of how much they are earning

They should get rid of this and a lot of other taxes. Car tax (put on petrol instead), TV license (Sell RTE), 2nd property tax could all be done away with over here. There probably a few other special purpose taxes that can be got rid of as well

I agree with you on the car tax and tv licence but not when it comes to property. On property taxes, thing is most EU countries plus US\Aus\NZ have it as a means of balancing their budgets, it's a normal way of helping to balance the budgets. Which EU countries by the way do not have a form of property tax?

Yes means test it fairly as Wibbs said earlier, its just a fact of life its here for good and should never have been abolished by FF in 1977.

flahavaj

Most people saying they won't pay will old the first time a letter demanding 2.5k in fines arrives through the door.

gigino

gurramok wrote: »

I agree with you on the car tax and tv licence but not when it comes to property. On property taxes, thing is most EU countries plus US\Aus\NZ have it as a means of balancing their budgets, it's a normal way of helping to balance the budgets. Which EU countries by the way do not have a form of property tax?

If you want to compare our govt taxation to EU standards, why not cut public sector pay + pensions by 30% to EU average then too ? That would save 1000 times what the property tax will bring in.

gigino

flahavaj wrote: »

Most people saying they won't pay will old the first time a letter demanding 2.5k in fines arrives through the door.

they cannot jail us all.

gurramok

gigino wrote: »

If you want to compare our govt taxation to EU standards, why not cut public sector pay + pensions by 30% to EU average then too ? That would save 1000 times what the property tax will bring in.

There maybe truth in that regarding the public sector and welfare, compare taxes to our EU counterparts perhaps? You'll find they pay sky high tax to pay for services, we don't yet.