GAA Infastructure

iDave

OK looks like O'Neill and Duffy still want to pursue the M50 Bowl idea

http://www1.skysports.com/gaelic-football/news/30543/9589404/gaa-president-liam-oneill-supports-plans-for-new-stadium-on-dublins-m50

GAA president Liam O’Neill has voiced his support for a Leinster Gaelic games stadium to be built on Dublin’s M50 motorway.

O’Neill was responding to questions about the Leinster Council’s continuing refusal to play Dublin’s senior football championship fixtures outside of Croke Park.

O’Neill, who was Leinster chairman the last time Dublin played an away championship match in 2006 against Longford, said that spectators’ comfort standards have risen to the point where he believes it impractical to stage big matches in the smaller provincial venues.

“I think Leinster probably has the situation on their hands where they have to develop a stadium that holds 40,000,” he said. “I think that’s the next one now.

“They’re talking about the M50. There’s huge demand now. The challenge now is to build a stadium that has access from Leinster.

“And there’s no county in Leinster, other than Kilkenny or Wexford, that is more than an hour-and-a-half from the M50. And we have to develop a stadium and meet that need in a different way.

“Rather than dragging them down to Longford and only 9,000, let’s go for 40,000 and we can say: ‘Right, we have a realistic alternative now'.

“I think the Leinster proposal for an M50 stadium is something that is going to have to be seriously considered by the organisation. It will service Dublin as well.”

deadybai

Whats the point in having it in Dublin? If this were to go ahead just for the sake of Dublin playing games outside of Croke Park it would be stupid. Why not just redevelop Parnell Park?

The Lost Sheep

deadybai wrote: »

Whats the point in having it in Dublin? If this were to go ahead just for the sake of Dublin playing games outside of Croke Park it would be stupid. Why not just redevelop Parnell Park?

Dublin is a good hub, many big populated counties close by.
On the M50 makes stadium much more accessible than redeveloping Parnell Park

LeinsterDub

On a greenfield site with nothing around it? That will do wonders for the atmosphere

Sq001

LeinsterDub wrote: »

On a greenfield site with nothing around it? That will do wonders for the atmosphere

Think havin it in Dublin is a bad move. Dublin would still have home games most of the time. Somewhere like Kildare off the motorway would be a better idea. Still very accessible to most Leinster people. Somewhere near Naas id say

iDave

Upgrading a few Leinster grounds should be the priority. Navan & Newbridge as well as Drogheda and Aughrim. It could be done for the same price as this thing. No new land will be purchased.
Will this be a home ground just for Dublin or any county within 2 hours drive of the M50?

deadybai

Presumably a home ground for Dublin OR when theres an American football game on in Croke Park this could be an option.

Maybe when two teams that arent Dublin meet in a semi final they can play there. Obviously all finals should be played at Croke park, right? Also wouldnt the Galway hurlers benefit from this too? They could make it their home ground. Tullamore businesses wouldnt be too pleased with that!

iDave

deadybai wrote: »

Galway hurlers benefit from this too? They could make it their home ground. Tullamore businesses wouldnt be too pleased with that!

Or they can use Salthill. Might be handier for their players and fans.

keane2097

spectators’ comfort standards have risen to the point where he believes it impractical to stage big matches in the smaller provincial venues

WTF is this ****? Just have Dublin play the odd game away from home like everyone else for **** sake

salmocab

Stadium on m50 is a waste of money, out of town stadiums don't have the same draw as ones in town/city centre or walking distance anyway. If it was built then making Dublin play in the suburbs instead of the city centre would be a laughable situation. Maybe a stadium in another county holding 40000 would be worthwhile but to be honest if it is built because its needed then great but if its just to move the dubs out of croker once or twice a year then it would be a waste of money.

blue note

Well this is just genius. People get annoyed about Dublin having all their games in Croke Park because it gives them an unfair advantage (home advantage). So what's the solution? Build a new stadium. Also in Dublin. Genius.

salmocab

blue note wrote: »

Well this is just genius. People get annoyed about Dublin having all their games in Croke Park because it gives them an unfair advantage (home advantage). So what's the solution? Build a new stadium. Also in Dublin. Genius.

Don't bother getting too worked up its not going to happen. Apart from Dublin ( Parnell too small,Croker too big ) does any Leinster county regularly sell out their own stadium for league matches?

Hibbeler

The thing is that Croke Park since it's redevelopment has sort of sucked the life (and most importantly money) out of most of the other GAA grounds in Leinster. These days it seems like 90% of all Leinster championship matches are played there and this has resulted in a most of the county grounds in Leinster becoming run down kips quite frankly.

Meath and Kildare both have abominable kips of grounds, Louth basically doesn't have one at all and this most likely will not change ever if the M50 ground is built.

But I feel that this is symptomatic of the GAA's poor infrastructure policies in general. Why does Munster need 4 stadiums with 40/50k capacity that are near half filled once in a blue moon, while the Leinster championships are basically played in the one place?

The one province I will give credit to stadium wise is Ulster where you have the likes of Breffni, Newry, Omagh and Clones would all be of decent standard and of an appropriate size. The new casement when built will add to this.

klairondavis

Is it April Fool's Day already?

Pete_Cavan

I would love to know where the site suitable for a 40,000 capacity stadium near the M50 is and, more importantly, how much it would cost. Unless it was built at the National Sports Campus at Abbottstown but I dont think there would be much support outside the GAA and certainly no external money. I dont think it would be a good location for the stadium anyway and would be a waste of money. Apart from when the Dubs are playing, how many Leinster championship games attract more than 25,000? Surely upgrades of existing stadiums and carefully selected double headers in Croker would do the job for Leinster championship.

Somewhere like Portlaoise would be a good location for a good quality 30,000 - 35,000 capacity stadium which gives another county a good home and could be used for qualifiers and quarter finals as well.

Dublin probably does need a better stadium than Parnell Park, not so much in terms of capacity but mainly access. The Dublin county final this year proved that. Parnell Park has no redevelopment potential, maybe Dublin County Board should consider selling it to fund a 15,000 - 20,000 capacity stadium at another location.

ciarriaithuaidh

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I would love to know where the site suitable for a 40,000 capacity stadium near the M50 is and, more importantly, how much it would cost. Unless it was built at the National Sports Campus at Abbottstown but I dont think there would be much support outside the GAA and certainly no external money. I dont think it would be a good location for the stadium anyway and would be a waste of money. Apart from when the Dubs are playing, how many Leinster championship games attract more than 25,000? Surely upgrades of existing stadiums and carefully selected double headers in Croker would do the job for Leinster championship.

Somewhere like Portlaoise would be a good location for a good quality 30,000 - 35,000 capacity stadium which gives another county a good home and could be used for qualifiers and quarter finals as well.

Dublin probably does need a better stadium than Parnell Park, not so much in terms of capacity but mainly access. The Dublin county final this year proved that. Parnell Park has no redevelopment potential, maybe Dublin County Board should consider selling it to fund a 15,000 - 20,000 capacity stadium at another location.

Pipe down you with that common sense based approach...building a stadium in a location within 90 mins drive of most of Leinster and with an appropriate capacity based on attendances. A pox on you I say!

Seriously though, this stadium near the M50 nonsense..where did they come up with that?! A stadium in a random locatin along the M50 would be yet another white elephant, not what is needed at all.

ciarriaithuaidh

Hibbeler wrote: »

The thing is that Croke Park since it's redevelopment has sort of sucked the life (and most importantly money) out of most of the other GAA grounds in Leinster. These days it seems like 90% of all Leinster championship matches are played there and this has resulted in a most of the county grounds in Leinster becoming run down kips quite frankly.

Meath and Kildare both have abominable kips of grounds, Louth basically doesn't have one at all and this most likely will not change ever if the M50 ground is built.

But I feel that this is symptomatic of the GAA's poor infrastructure policies in general. Why does Munster need 4 stadiums with 40/50k capacity that are near half filled once in a blue moon, while the Leinster championships are basically played in the one place?

The one province I will give credit to stadium wise is Ulster where you have the likes of Breffni, Newry, Omagh and Clones would all be of decent standard and of an appropriate size. The new casement when built will add to this.

True, it doesn't make any sense.
I think the situation in Limerick where you have 2 stadiums of roughly 30k and 45k capacity within a mile of each other in a city of what, 90k population ..is the most ludicrous. Makes for really awkward conversations with visitors who can practically see one stadium from the other!
Fitzgerald Stadium is probably another outsized venue, even though I love it. Semple stadium, similarly is a historic venue that is out of proportion to it's location but is sustained by holding the majority of Munster hurling championship matches.
Cork will have a 45k stadium if plans come to fruition and this is probably appropriate in terms of population and the large hurling following in Cork especially. Capacity was increased with the RWC bid in mind aswell I believe.

If one was starting from scratch again, 4 smaller venues and 2 40k stadia in Cork and Limerick would obviously be a basic plan..but so long as they don't go buck wild and spend a load of money on stadia that will host mainly national league games in Ennis and Waterford, what can you do.

iDave

Its a simple as this. Every county should have a home ground that can accommodate their national league matches, provincial championship up to SF level, qualifiers and county finals. The capacities should be based on population/fan base. They should however be built to the highest possible standard. Home and away agreements should then be the norm to guarantee regular usage of county grounds up to provincial SF level.
Neutral venues and double headers should be done away with unless its a final or All Ireland semi or if demand requires it.
This stadium is just not necessary. The GAA should have a stadium infrastructure plan with Navan, Newbridge and Waterford prioritised. Drogheda, Aughrim and Ennis next and then perhaps Mulingar, Ballybofey, Hyde Park for example. Also proceed with the existing Casement and PUC plans (although the PUC design really needs a second look)
Bringing every county in Leinster to some new site off the M50 for a provincial QF makes no sense when existing grounds should be utilised. If we utilise our existing grounds then it will be easier to justify upgrading them.

Snickers Man

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I would love to know where the site suitable for a 40,000 capacity stadium near the M50 is and, more importantly, how much it would cost.

I dont think it would be a good location for the stadium anyway and would be a waste of money.

Dublin probably does need a better stadium than Parnell Park, not so much in terms of capacity but mainly access.

Ah yes, the A-word. Which is something nothing built anywhere near Abbots Town will have. Have you ever driven along that section of motorway at busy times? Bottleneck isn't the word for it.

MAD IDEA. If the PDs will be remembered in years to come for anything at all it will be for stopping that backslapping dimwit Bertie Ahern from building his white elephant in the arse hole of nowhere. One would think the GAA would have more sense.

Pete_Cavan

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/gaa-looking-to-expand-croke-park-1.2031953

Sounds good at first but I fear it could be a big disappointment. Terms like urban village set alarm bells ringing for me, just buzz words with no specific meaning. It could be a horrible soulless modern area shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong, totally at odds with its surroundings. What is the point of restaurants which will be too crowded on match days and empty every other day of the year?

It should just be an open space for people to congregate before and after matches. It could be a fan zone type area with food vendors and even buskers which would be full of activity and create a great atmosphere. The site is also too small for this boulevard and new homes also, DDC should sell the entire site and use the money to build homes on one of the many vacant sites which are empty due to their lack of funds.

iDave

Looks like a redevelopment on the way for Dr Hyde

http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=228938

Makes sense, this venue holds some provincial finals so should be a higher standard than it is now. Amazing to think this place is considered good enough to hold actual finals. Only in Ireland

keane2097

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/gaa-looking-to-expand-croke-park-1.2031953

Sounds good at first but I fear it could be a big disappointment. Terms like urban village set alarm bells ringing for me, just buzz words with no specific meaning. It could be a horrible soulless modern area shoehorned into somewhere it doesn't belong, totally at odds with its surroundings. What is the point of restaurants which will be too crowded on match days and empty every other day of the year?

It should just be an open space for people to congregate before and after matches. It could be a fan zone type area with food vendors and even buskers which would be full of activity and create a great atmosphere. The site is also too small for this boulevard and new homes also, DDC should sell the entire site and use the money to build homes on one of the many vacant sites which are empty due to their lack of funds.

Why would they be empty every other day of the year? It's Drumcondra.

kksaints

keane2097 wrote: »

Why would they be empty every other day of the year? It's Drumcondra.

Actually isnt that Ballybough? Plans seems interesting enough anyway and that place is fairly run down looking and could do with a regeneration programme.

keane2097

kksaints wrote: »

Actually isnt that Ballybough? Plans seems interesting enough anyway and that place is fairly run down looking and could do with a regeneration programme.

It's somewhere in the middle AFAIK.

In any case, the idea of the area around Croke Park being some sort of ghost town when the GAA isn't around is bizarre and probably why all the culchies were losing their mind over not being allowed to **** all over the place for five nights in a row of Garth Brooks hoe-downs.

salmocab

Jaysus 2 redevelopment stories in 2 days, good times are back everyone has money again.

nice_guy80

the GAA plans for Croke Park will be objected to.
The Handball crowd in Dublin are not happy with the facilities being proposed.

salmocab

Using one big entrance for Croker could be interesting although it means 80000 people walking down the same roads so can see objections there and the likes of jurys are unlikely to be too pleased that they are no longer right beside the entrance to the Hogan side of the ground. I foresee this going on for quite a few years.

Colm R

salmocab wrote: »

Using one big entrance for Croker could be interesting although it means 80000 people walking down the same roads so can see objections there and the likes of jurys are unlikely to be too pleased that they are no longer right beside the entrance to the Hogan side of the ground. I foresee this going on for quite a few years.

I would imagine it would only be the entrance for the Davin and Cusack - the Hogan would still be accessed from the Jones road.

salmocab

Colm R wrote: »

I would imagine it would only be the entrance for the Davin and Cusack - the Hogan would still be accessed from the Jones road.

that would make sense alright but its not what the article says. The Hogan entrance is fine at the moment.

Coillte_Bhoy

iDave wrote: »

Looks like a redevelopment on the way for Dr Hyde

http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=228938

Makes sense, this venue holds some provincial finals so should be a higher standard than it is now. Amazing to think this place is considered good enough to hold actual finals. Only in Ireland

Actually its not and hanst been for a few years

iDave

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Actually its not and hanst been for a few years

2012 wasn't that long ago.

Coillte_Bhoy

iDave wrote: »

2012 wasn't that long ago.

True, thought it was longer than that

iDave

Casement planning permission denied

http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229121

Pete_Cavan

Croke Villas is in Ballybough or Summerhill, it certainly isnt Drumcondra.

The Hyde certainly is in need of a major overhaul. The new stands should be designed with the possibility to temporarily increase capacity when needed. 20k standard capacity with the ability to increase to 30k temporarily for a Connaught final would be sufficient. We should be looking to build that kind of flexibility into stadiums going forward rather than sizing them for one off events.

Not surprised Casement was rejected, I always thought the site was too small to accommodate the stadium. There is public park on the other side of the M1, Musgrave Park, has lots of space and has better road access and is beside a train station, it is an ideal location for the new stadium.

iDave

The Hyde certainly is in need of a major overhaul. The new stands should be designed with the possibility to temporarily increase capacity when needed. 20k standard capacity with the ability to increase to 30k temporarily for a Connaught final would be sufficient. We should be looking to build that kind of flexibility into stadiums going forward rather than sizing them for one off events.

Something like temporary seats at the RDS or in Tallaght for the Europa League? Not a bad idea but probably too imaginative for GAA stadium designers.
You could probably do that for Dublin away games but I'm sure the Leinster Council will find a reason not to do it.

Not surprised Casement was rejected, I always thought the site was too small to accommodate the stadium. There is public park on the other side of the M1, Musgrave Park, has lots of space and has better road access and is beside a train station, it is an ideal location for the new stadium

Where to now? This came about when the NI Executive offered a ball of money. Do you find a different site in Belfast or redistribute to all the 6 counties. Keeping in mind Casement had been lined up as an RWC QF venue.

Hibbeler

iDave wrote: »

Something like temporary seats at the RDS or in Tallaght for the Europa League? Not a bad idea but probably too imaginative for GAA stadium designers.
You could probably do that for Dublin away games but I'm sure the Leinster Council will find a reason not to do it.

That's actually a really good idea. Or another option could be to build a covered seated stand but with the option to remove the seating and convert to a terrace if/when an additional capacity is required. Perhaps the rail type seating that's seen in places like Germany could be looked at.

ardmacha

Casement Park redevelopment: Minister acted unlawfully by granting approvalBreaking news
Northern Ireland's environment minister acted unlawfully in approving a new GAA stadium in west Belfast, a High Court judge has ruled.

Planning permission for the 38,000-seater stadium was granted by Mark H Durkan in December 2013.

Local residents who objected to the size of the planned development launched a legal challenge in response.

Mr Justice Horner held the decision making process around the decision was "fundamentally flawed".

He identified failures in the environmental impact assessment of the increased facilities and an unrealistic reliance by the Department of the Environment (DoE) on an existing 32,600 capacity as a baseline for the project.

With far fewer spectators normally attending matches at the current ground, the judge also found that the effect of bigger crowds on the surrounding roads network had not been properly examined.

However, he did not quash the minister's decision.

Instead, lawyers for the DoE, the GAA and a residents group who mounted the legal challenge are to make further submissions on appropriate remedies.

Local residents claimed the proposed £76m stadium would be too big for the area.

The GAA's provincial body, the Ulster Council, said a 38,000 capacity was needed for the staging of Ulster Senior football finals and All-Ireland quarter-finals.

The redevelopment of Casement Park is part of the government's policy to upgrade the three major sports grounds in Belfast - football's Windsor Park, Ulster's rugby ground at Ravenhill and the Gaelic games stadium at Casement.

Three new stands have been constructed at Ravenhill.

Work on modernising Windsor Park, the home of Irish League club Linfield and the Northern Ireland international team, is ongoing.

Cosmo Kramer

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is public park on the other side of the M1, Musgrave Park, has lots of space and has better road access and is beside a train station, it is an ideal location for the new stadium.

I'm no expert on Belfast but would the other side of the M1 not be less suitable for a GAA stadium for, you know, political reasons...

Pete_Cavan

iDave wrote: »

Something like temporary seats at the RDS or in Tallaght for the Europa League? Not a bad idea but probably too imaginative for GAA stadium designers.

The GAAs stadium designers are the architects and engineer who the county board engages for a particular project, they design to the brief and budget given to them. The brief for stadia going forward should be an appropriate fixed capacity with the ability to increase for one off big games. A simple and cheap solution for this would be no fixed stand behind the goals, only footings to take temporary stands similar to that used in the RDS. I am sure there are more complicated designs which could be developed but would be more expensive to build.

Mal-Adjusted

I really don't understand the mentality of building stadiums as either huge legacies or else designing them to accommodate a capacity that will only be realized (at most) once every year or two. I'd rather a modest, modern stadium with great facilities (see: covered stands, actual seats and toilet facilities you don't need a haz-mat suit to go near) than a horrible lump of galvanize and concrete that boasts about 55,000 capacity.

Browning

Lets just sort out the mess at some of the existing grounds first. I think of our own Conleths Park in Newbridge. I know they spent a lot of cash this year, but it is still way off the required standard. Why go build more white elephants ?

zetecescort

The High Court in Belfast has quashed the decision to grant planning permission to the GAA to turn Casement Park into a 38,000-seat stadium.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2014/1218/667739-belfast-high-court-quashes-casement-park-plans/

nice_guy80

I'm glad someone is calling a halt to the madness.

Pity someone wouldn't do the same for Pairv Ui Chaoimh

The Lost Sheep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'm glad someone is calling a halt to the madness.

Pity someone wouldn't do the same for Pairv Ui Chaoimh

Why would it be a bad thing for Pairc ui Chaoimhs redevelopment to be stopped?

nice_guy80

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why would it be a bad thing for Pairc ui Chaoimhs redevelopment to be stopped?

It is a waste of money for a stadium that'll be barely used.
Some county grounds have terrible basic facilities for spectators and many counties don't have county training grounds for their teams.

nice_guy80

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/galway-gaa-awaits-planning-decision-on-pearse-stadium-floodlights-1.2043253

Pearse Stadium is in a horrible location, for parking and just driving across to it and should never have been redeveloped.

WesternZulu

nice_guy80 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/galway-gaa-awaits-planning-decision-on-pearse-stadium-floodlights-1.2043253

Pearse Stadium is in a horrible location, for parking and just driving across to it and should never have been redeveloped.

Well as a Mayo man I'm just happy they're not in Tuam anymore...a ground we never had much luck.

iDave

What do we make of some of the talk regarding a main Connacht stadium.
As far as I'm aware the final alternates between Pearse, McHale and Hyde based on H&A agreements.
Cant see Galway, Mayo or Roscommon backing down and letting one ground host all the finals.

J Cheever Loophole

iDave wrote: »

What do we make of some of the talk regarding a main Connacht stadium.

Definitely the way forward but I'm not sure it will happen, given the investment there has been at Pearse Stadium and McHale Park.

In Ulster we have no real issue with Clones being used and hopefully Casement Park will take on that role going forward. The reason for this is that most of our stadia have a capacity around the 15,000 - 20,000 mark and are unsuitable for provincial finals anyway.

Looking long term, the ideal scenario would surely be to have one stadium in each province that has a 40 - 50,000 capacity and every other county within that province having a modern ground holding 10 - 20,000 - the priority in all this being spectator comfort and health and safety.

blue note

iDave wrote: »

What do we make of some of the talk regarding a main Connacht stadium.
As far as I'm aware the final alternates between Pearse, McHale and Hyde based on H&A agreements.
Cant see Galway, Mayo or Roscommon backing down and letting one ground host all the finals.

I'd say it will largely depend on how the income from matches is split. In Munster we should really just have the one big stadium which could easily cater for all the big Munster matches. However, a cut of the gates (I think an eighth) goes to the host county. So there's an incentive for counties to have big stadiums so that they can host occasional Munster finals and other big games. 4 counties have these stadiums, so that portion of the income is split between the 4 counties instead of the six. And of course Cork feel that they should have one because they're the third biggest city in Ireland.

The GAA missed an opportunity overhaul stadiums in this country during the boom years, but they should still go ahead and centralise it. It will take longer, but a centralised plan would benefit everyone in the long run.