GAA Infastructure

Pete_Cavan

Thread dedicated to the development of stadia, pitches and facilities in general at all levels in the GAA. Post up details of new infrastructure being planned or built within your club/county or discuss projects. I'll get the ball rolling in a minute...

Pete_Cavan

I was reading during the week about Louth GAAs plans for for a new stadium on the grounds of DkIT. More details on the proposal here. This looks like a great idea, combining the stadium to also provide college facilities. It is also cheaper for the GAA, who have an obligation to their members to spend their money as effectively as possible. Looks like the proposal has got the nod from Croke Park, has anyone in Louth heard anything about the chances of this going ahead next year? It would be great for GAA in Louth, to go along with their Centre of Excellence, more photos here.

Sticking wih Centres of Excellence, the Connacht Centre of Excellence is to host matches next January. Looks like they are gearing up for the clubhouse to be built next year. Having Centres of Excellence which cover a number of counties is a good idea and neighbouring counties should be encouraged to join together for such developments. Sligo County Board and Leitrim County Board are also planning their own developments. Meanwhile Mayo County Board has debts of €11.6m after the redevelopment of McHale Park.

Mentions also to Centres of Excellence in Antrim, Tyrone - with video (health warning - skip to 1.01 before you get sick), Kildare, Wicklow and Carlow . Does anyone know are any of these actually going ahead or are they tiger-era pie-in-the-sky projects?

In their Unleashing the Blue Wave strategy, Dublin county board plan to develop a Centre of Excellence at the State-owned site in Abbotstown, proposed site for the National Sports Campus. The proposed south side Centre of Excellence in Rathcoole has been put on the backburner.

It also talks about the need to "Develop a stadium to bridge the gap between the capacity of Parnell Park and the 82,300 capacity of Croke Park" following "economic appraisal for the construction of an optimum size stadium taking into account the stadia deficit in the neighbouring counties". I can only assume this refers to the limiting of stadium capacity in Meath and Kildare. Croke Park is believed to be considering building a third stadium in Dublin, at a cost of €100m! Meath and Kildare are both strong football counties with good support and should not be asked to travel to Dublin for home matches. They should be aiming for something like O'Connor Park in Tullamore (20,000 capacity), which was redeveloped for €10m, most of which was completed in June 2006, so tender prices then would have been a lot higher than now. O'Moore Park is the most likely place to bridge the gap between that and Croker.

Todays Sindo reporting a number of stadiums in Munster are also in danger of having capacity cuts. There has been talk of a redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh for some time now. Páirc Uí Chaoimh is a hole and is in need of redevelopment but 50,000 is ott. I think the GAA are making a big mistake by wanting to build a second pitch there. Cork County Council got the land on condition that it be used as a public park. The Councilors may have voted in a favour of selling some of the land to the GAA for a second pitch but that leaves it open to legal challenges which could delay the project and be very costly. Anyway one all weather pitch is not going to be enough for a centre of excellence for a county of that size.

bruschi

Kildares is complete, just outside of Newbridge. decent set up there, pitches could do with a bit more work though.

Carlows complex is on hold for another bit, but their pitches are underway in Fenagh. Meath have their pitches complete in Dunganny complete, but no complex yet. Wexford turned the sod on their centre of excellence outside Ferns there recently too. waste of time that is. they had land, and sold it for a loss to get more land, that was way over valued so now they are in debt over it.

Pete_Cavan

Couple of articles in the papers over the last week about the Slattery Report and the need to cut capacities in many grounds. Indo suggests a cut of 200,000, more than a quarter of the capacity of GAA stadia, has been recommended by the authors of the report. Times reports that that basic improvements can make a big difference, which seems to mean extra turnstiles and extra stewards rather than changes to stands. I dont believe all the stadia need to return to their previous capacity, in fact most would be better served by providing better facilities in 15k-20k stadia. Any stadia over 25k should be strategically selected based on the level of support that county gets and ability to host doubleheaders/act as a neutral venue.

Current capacity and proposed capacity of stadia covered in the report (scanned from yesterdays Indo);


Cork County Board say they will carry out renovation work needed to get Pairc Ui Chaoimh capacity back to 43,000 which must mean the planned new stadium will not be going ahead.

The article in yesterdays Indo (but not up online) by Martin Breheny has details of plans by various County Boards to sell their stadium to developers during the Tiger years. They planned to build new stadia out of town. I think GAA stadia are better situated in or near town centres instead of having them out of town. The idea of out of town stadia comes from soccer stadia where they dont want fans mixing before games for fear of violence, having a chat with the opposition fans before/after a match is one of the great things about GAA.

The new Louth Stadium has got the support of Croke Park and now the proposals have to be put to the clubs for approval. I dont like the way Croke Park would only support the project if it was to be used exclusively by the GAA. More of the same stuck-in-the-past thinking that gives haters ammunition to dis the GAA.

rpurfield

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Couple of articles in the papers over the last week about the Slattery Report and the need to cut capacities in many grounds. Indo suggests a cut of 200,000, more than a quarter of the capacity of GAA stadia, has been recommended by the authors of the report. Times reports that that basic improvements can make a big difference, which seems to mean extra turnstiles and extra stewards rather than changes to stands. I dont believe all the stadia need to return to their previous capacity, in fact most would be better served by providing better facilities in 15k-20k stadia. Any stadia over 25k should be strategically selected based on the level of support that county gets and ability to host doubleheaders/act as a neutral venue.

Current capacity and proposed capacity of stadia covered in the report (scanned from yesterdays Indo);


Cork County Board say they will carry out renovation work needed to get Pairc Ui Chaoimh capacity back to 43,000 which must mean the planned new stadium will not be going ahead.

The article in yesterdays Indo (but not up online) by Martin Breheny has details of plans by various County Boards to sell their stadium to developers during the Tiger years. They planned to build new stadia out of town. I think GAA stadia are better situated in or near town centres instead of having them out of town. The idea of out of town stadia comes from soccer stadia where they dont want fans mixing before games for fear of violence, having a chat with the opposition fans before/after a match is one of the great things about GAA.

The new Louth Stadium has got the support of Croke Park and now the proposals have to be put to the clubs for approval. I dont like the way Croke Park would only support the project if it was to be used exclusively by the GAA. More of the same stuck-in-the-past thinking that gives haters ammunition to dis the GAA.

agree with quite a lot of what your saying.grounds with capacitys of 30-40k is ample for probably 99% of games and will generate better atmospheres.your right about stadiums built in towns too the buzz in navan for meaths two home qualifiers this year was savage same anytime your in portlaoise too and the atmosphere carries up from the town into the ground

Pete_Cavan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Cork County Board say they will carry out renovation work needed to get Pairc Ui Chaoimh capacity back to 43,000 which must mean the planned new stadium will not be going ahead.

Looks like they are moving ahead with this with the appointment of the Design Team to prepare the Planning Application and detailed design appointment of the Design Team to prepare the Planning Application and detailed design[/url. They have scaled back a bit from the original 60,000-seater plan.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/pairc-ui-chaoimh-revamp-moves-big-step-closer-2901527.html

A state-of-the-art centre of excellence forms part of the redevelopment plan on the Leeside site

I still dont get the centre of excellence thing - from what I have read, this will involve one all weather pitch in addition to the main pitch. One pitch is not a centre of excellence for a county with such a large GAA playing population. AFAIK there are also legal issues with this as Cork County Council got the land on condition that it be used as a public park and trying to put an extra football pitch on it could delay the project and be very costly. Im sure the county board is well aware one pitch will not suffice and are only looking for this as a warm up pitch. They should provide a warm up area under the stand like in Croker and scrap the second pitch idea.

Instead of a second pitch they should be looking to open up another source of income by housing a Cork GAA museum or by hosting concerts. Something that would attract visitors and tourists on non-match days would be a much better option imo.

LeoB

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Couple of articles in the papers over the last week about the Slattery Report and the need to cut capacities in many grounds. Indo suggests a cut of 200,000, more than a quarter of the capacity of GAA stadia, has been recommended by the authors of the report. Times reports that that basic improvements can make a big difference, which seems to mean extra turnstiles and extra stewards rather than changes to stands. I dont believe all the stadia need to return to their previous capacity, in fact most would be better served by providing better facilities in 15k-20k stadia. Any stadia over 25k should be strategically selected based on the level of support that county gets and ability to host doubleheaders/act as a neutral venue.

Current capacity and proposed capacity of stadia covered in the report (scanned from yesterdays Indo);


Cork County Board say they will carry out renovation work needed to get Pairc Ui Chaoimh capacity back to 43,000 which must mean the planned new stadium will not be going ahead.

The article in yesterdays Indo (but not up online) by Martin Breheny has details of plans by various County Boards to sell their stadium to developers during the Tiger years. They planned to build new stadia out of town. I think GAA stadia are better situated in or near town centres instead of having them out of town. The idea of out of town stadia comes from soccer stadia where they dont want fans mixing before games for fear of violence, having a chat with the opposition fans before/after a match is one of the great things about GAA.

The new Louth Stadium has got the support of Croke Park and now the proposals have to be put to the clubs for approval. I dont like the way Croke Park would only support the project if it was to be used exclusively by the GAA. More of the same stuck-in-the-past thinking that gives haters ammunition to dis the GAA.

This may be because when the Fingal Sports Campus was proposed G.A.A. was excluded despite the Fingal had just a team in National Hurling League for the first time. Sporting Fingal F.C. had also entered the League of Ireland.

I made representations to have G.A.A. included and every excuse under the sun was given as to why it was not included. Eventually they included "juvenile" G.A.A which could be played at certain times. We got no fixed time, no permanennt pitch. WOULD NOT BE MUCH GOOD TO GET SOME SILLY MID-WEEK SLOT WITH PEOPLE WORKING.

I as chairman of the biggest G.A.A club in the area at the time publicy offered support to the project if G.A.A. was included. The idea behind the project was good every sport from Cricket to Bowling was included, badminton, Basketball hockey, Rugby but not G.A.A. A few people myself included were not happy inatially but I was happy to see juvenile G.A.A being catered for. I and others met Fingal C.C. and put our case. We gave them a superb proposal but to no avail

The Louth stadium is a very good idea. I was in Darver where the centre of excellence is and they have not wasted a blade of grass. Avery impressive facility except for the access which could be better.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Looks like they are moving ahead with this with the appointment of the Design Team to prepare the Planning Application and detailed design appointment of the Design Team to prepare the Planning Application and detailed design[/url. They have scaled back a bit from the original 60,000-seater plan.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/pairc-ui-chaoimh-revamp-moves-big-step-closer-2901527.html

I still dont get the centre of excellence thing - from what I have read, this will involve one all weather pitch in addition to the main pitch. One pitch is not a centre of excellence for a county with such a large GAA playing population. AFAIK there are also legal issues with this as Cork County Council got the land on condition that it be used as a public park and trying to put an extra football pitch on it could delay the project and be very costly. Im sure the county board is well aware one pitch will not suffice and are only looking for this as a warm up pitch. They should provide a warm up area under the stand like in Croker and scrap the second pitch idea.

Instead of a second pitch they should be looking to open up another source of income by housing a Cork GAA museum or by hosting concerts. Something that would attract visitors and tourists on non-match days would be a much better option imo.

I think a county the size of Cork would need 2 centres. Either East and West or North and South as its a massive county. Ciaran O'Sullivan used to be half way from his home to Croke Park and still in County Cork!! If you take it that Football is mainly a City, North and West Cork game somewhere on the West side side of Cork city Bandon/Macroom while Hurling seems to be stronger in east cork so eith a city location or out in Midleton

It has been shown around Europe that stadia work better in Urban/City locations and close to a train station. This was pointed out to me when I saw plans for proposed Soccer ground outside Dublin city. I took it for granted it would make life easier for people to get to a match but Croke Park with Connolly station and Luas Park and ride from Naas Rd is ideally located.

I think the view of stadium size must change. We fill Croke Park a handful of times a year and it would make more sense to have 2 decent grounds in Leinster of maybe 30-40,000. If Dublin were playing Carlow the match should be played in Portlaois or Tullamore which would be a boost for either of these towns. A similar plan for each province makes more sense.

Or if the G.A.A wanted another state of the art ground why not Longford or Athlone? A secondary stadium. It could be used for Hurling and football qualifers, N.F.L semi-finals, a permanent base for Sigerson and Fitzgibbon cup, Club semi-finals / Finals.

Pete_Cavan

GAA plans grand new entrance to Croke Park. Interesting idea, would be nice to see some plans. Here is Sackville Avenue and this is Croke Villas (with Croke Park directly behind you). If done right, this could be a great addition to the Croke Park campus and would help to develop one of the less diserable areas of the city. With all the empty apartments around Dublin owned by NAMA it doesnt make sense for DCC to redevelop this site to make more apartments

I assume this would replace the GAAs original plan to redevelop the existing handball facility off Clonliffe Road. They seem to be having a lot of problems with locals over that plan and have issued legal proceedings against a number of residents.

Pete_Cavan

Roof top tour at Croker, called the Etihad Skyline tour, set to open next week;

Croke Park Stadium has announced that the Etihad Skyline tour on the roof of the historic ground will open to the public on Friday, 1 June. Sponsored by Etihad Airways, the roof-top tour of Croke Park boasts spectacular panoramic views of Dublin city and its surroundings from 44 metres or 17 storeys above the ground.

With an investment of over €1m and the creation of 10 jobs, the opening of the Etihad Skyline at Croke Park is expected to bring even more visitors to what is already Dublin's most visited attraction.

Some 100 tonnes of painted galvanised steel have gone into creating a 0.6 kilometre walkway, which was fabricated in Portlaoise and has been installed within the existing steel roof support structure at Croke Park. Five viewing platforms have been created along the walkway, which offers a unique perspective of Dublin's most popular and celebrated landmarks.

http://businessandleadership.com/business/item/35274-etihad-skyline-tour-to-open/

Looks good, great to see the stadium establish itself as a proper tourist attraction, hopefully it will become a must see for visitors to Dublin. The biggest problem here is the weather, looks very exposed so you would want a decent day if you are going up there. Also, judging by the video, you might need to bring the binoculars with you to see some of the things they are pointing out.

cailinardthair

I keep hearing about new developments in Cusack Park in Ennis but anytime i google it i only find information about the failed bid to buy and replace it from a few years back. anyone know anything about this?

Pete_Cavan

More on the Páirc Uí Chaoimh redevelopment.

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/3108120802-pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-jobs-boost/

Subject to a successful planning application, construction on the project will begin in autumn of next year and be undertaken in two phases and completed in 2015. In the region of 400 direct and indirect construction jobs will be created over the two phased construction period. Using Construction Industry Federation multiples, this would result in a direct €22 million boost to the construction and related sectors locally, the meeting was told. The Stadium will be financed from a number of sources including the GAA, commercial revenue, ticket sales and other funding.

...

The meeting was informed that each major fixture or public event at Páirc Uí Chaoimh generated an estimated €12m for the local economy with the main beneficiaries being the hospitality sector. The redeveloped Stadium was not only likely to attract greater numbers of fixtures but also be in a position to attract other large events, thereby addressing significant deficits in Cork’s Business and Tourism infrastructure.

Looks like the Cork County Board are trying to get people on their side with the promise of jobs (albeit short term construction jobs) and new income for the local economy. Seems to be plenty of oposition to the plan because of how it will effect Marina Park. They see to make a reasonable point and the alternatives they put forward appear to be more sensible than the current plans. Looks like the County Board will plough on with their own plans which will more than likely get bogged down in planning appliations and appeals.

In other news, Longford GAA has had a delay in receiving planning permission for their proposed Centre of Excellence;

http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/local/fresh-woe-for-longford-gaa-1-4044069

Pete_Cavan

Sketches released last week showing the proposed Marina Park in Cork and also the "redeveloped" Páirc Uí Chaoimh;

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2012/11/27/marina-park-plans-unveiled/



I put redeveloped in inverted commas because it appears they intend to knock and rebuild the covered stand only and not touch the other stands. Judging by the sketches, the new stand looks to be very large so should incorporate good facilities (possibly four changing rooms, corporate hosting facilities, shops, etc.). In any case, whatever they build it will be an improvement on the existing stand.



Obviously the main stand in Páirc Uí Chaoimh is terrible and an insult to those who pay to sit there, so its demolition is very good news. Having never been in the other stand or terraces in PUC I cant comment on them, however, they look decent (by GAA stadium standards) so rebuilding them may not be worth the expense. If they do not plan on rebuilding the stand in the short or medium term, they certainly should look into putting a roof over the currently uncovered seated stand. This, along with the new main stand and improved circulation space around and within the grounds, would leave PUC as quite a good stadium (again, by GAA stadium standards). Incorporating the stadium as a focal point within the new public park would be great and hopefully bring a bit of life to the place on non-match days.

Obviously there are still question marks over whether the funding will be available (assuming they get over all legal hurdles) to allow this to progress from the drawing board. The Cork County Board recently launched a pre-emptive strike against those who will oppose the plans by promising the redevelopment will create more than 400 jobs, this suggests that there is some confidence that there will be some movement in the not too distant future. With the income that the CCB will net from the Bruce Springsteen concert in PUC next summer, they may look to push ahead with the plans in order to open up an additional revenue steam.

iDave

I thought PUC was supposed to undergo a complete redevelopment and not just one side. Perhaps this will be done in phases hence the sketch of just one side redeveloped

68Murph68

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Obviously the main stand in Páirc Uí Chaoimh is terrible and an insult to those who pay to sit there, so its demolition is very good news. Having never been in the other stand or terraces in PUC I cant comment on them, however, they look decent (by GAA stadium standards) so rebuilding them may not be worth the expense.

The terraces and other stands are also an insult to those who pay and it is utter madness not to redevelop them. The concrete seats in the uncovered stand are basically only suited to children given the utter lack of legroom.

Its stupid beyond belief and makes this whole notion of redevelopment a compete waste of time imo.

If I were cynical about this I would see the powers that be in Cork GAA are only interested in developing the main stand as they and all their connections will have free tickets for this so no point in worrying about the plebs in the cheap seats and the terraces.

Anyone want to lay odds on some part of the new redeveloped section of stadium bearing the name Frank in some part?

cormac halpin

That looks like a complete clusterfuuck and an unbelievable waste of money.

Good work.

Pete_Cavan

iDave wrote: »

I thought PUC was supposed to undergo a complete redevelopment and not just one side. Perhaps this will be done in phases hence the sketch of just one side redeveloped

I thought it would be a full redevelopment too, and it may well be, but the images above suggest otherwise. Of course the images may be wrong (they were not released by the GAA) but these were released to promote the new park they intend to create so you would think they would want to make the stadium look as impressive as possible - Im surprised they didnt photoshop in something that looks like the Aviva just to make the plans look better.

Pete_Cavan

Yesterday, details of recipiants of grants from the Sports Capital Programme 2012 were released. I am sure almost every GAA club in the country applied for some grant money so there was many a club committee member eagerly awaiting the announcement of the successful applications.

Full list of allocations; http://www.dttas.ie/uploads/documents/news/Sports%20Capital%20Programme%20Local%20Projects.pdf

Close to €9.5m has been awarded to GAA clubs around the country. This money should go along way to improving facilities in clubs lucky enough to have had their applications accepted. Grants range from €1,200 to €300,000.

Some of the big winners were; Aghinagh GAA Club (€90,000), Ballinascarthy GAA Club (€130,000) and Mayfield Hurling and Football Club (€117,930) in Cork, Urris GAA Club (€100,000) and Dungloe GAA Club (€100,000) in Donegal, Whitehall Colmcille GAA Club (€150,000), Man O'War GFC (€300,000), St Vincent's GAA Club (€96,577) and Round Tower GAA Club (€178,000) in Dublin, Caltra GAA Club (€140,000), Dunmore MacHales GAA Club (€100,000) amd Kilconly GAA Club in Galway, Grangenolvin GFC (€100,000) in Kildare, James Stephens GAA Club (€90,000) in Kilkenny, Ballylanders GAA Club (€120,000) in Limerick, Dunshaughlin GAA (€145,000) in Meath, Oran GAA Club (€100,000) in Roscommon, Garrycastle GAA Club (€90,000) in Westmeath and St Marys GAA Club Maudlintown (€189,000) in Wexford.

Does anybody in any of the successful clubs have any details on what the money will be spent on, was it the full amount applied for and how much of an impact will it have? In relation to the Whitehall Colmcille GAA grant, will this be used to develop part of the site across the road from the church?

One thing I noticed as I went down through the list was the number of handball clubs mentioned. Nine handball clubs shared €295,200, this should be a big boost to the game.

iDave

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I thought it would be a full redevelopment too, and it may well be, but the images above suggest otherwise. Of course the images may be wrong (they were not released by the GAA) but these were released to promote the new park they intend to create so you would think they would want to make the stadium look as impressive as possible - Im surprised they didnt photoshop in something that looks like the Aviva just to make the plans look better.

Heres an image i saw before that looks much more impressive

http://cache.central.ie/files/2012/05/Pairc-Impression.jpg

iDave

New Casement looks impressive

cormac halpin

Is there a need for it Dave? The GAA has a plethora of white elephants around the country at this stage, is this a vital development or is another monument like Frank's Páirc?

iDave

You'll have to ask the good people of Antrim and Ulster GAA if its needed. I'm just commenting on its aesthetic qualities.

cormac halpin

iDave wrote: »

You'll have to ask the good people of Antrim and Ulster GAA if its needed. I'm just commenting on its aesthetic qualities.

A 40,000 capacity stadium seems a bit excessive, unless it will be open to other codes?

iDave

cormac halpin wrote: »

A 40,000 capacity stadium seems a bit excessive, unless it will be open to other codes?

As far as i know it wont be open to other codes. The NI executive gave funding to the GAA, Ulster Rugby and IFA seperate and are pursuing their own redevelopents at Ravenhill and Windsor Park respectively. Apart from Ulster finals being moved cant see it being filled much unless they move Antrims Leinster hurling matches there.
Clones is probably the big loser here

cormac halpin

iDave wrote: »

As far as i know it wont be open to other codes. The NI executive gave funding to the GAA, Ulster Rugby and IFA seperate and are pursuing their own redevelopents at Ravenhill and Windsor Park respectively. Apart from Ulster finals being moved cant see it being filled much unless they move Antrims Leinster hurling matches there.
Clones is probably the big loser here

Seems baffling then. I do understand there is money to burn in the UK, and especially NI for such matters, but this seems sheer folly imo. As you said, Clones loses out which is all well and good, they should have no monopoly on anything, but 40K just seems madness in the corner of the country, much like the Páirc.

Tom Joad

cormac halpin wrote: »

Seems baffling then. I do understand there is money to burn in the UK, and especially NI for such matters, but this seems sheer folly imo. As you said, Clones loses out which is all well and good, they should have no monopoly on anything, but 40K just seems madness in the corner of the country, much like the Páirc.

Nail on head there - this is a white elephant pure and simple. The problem with Casement is its location - you couldn't pick a worse place for a football ground - I have never been to a match in Casement that started on time - there is next to no parking near it and a less than helpful local police force to assist traffic flow. I would agree that Clones shouldn't have a monoply but I can't think of a worse county ground in Ulster to chuck money at especially when there are other alternatives to Clones that have had a lot of money spent on them in recent times such as Athletic Grounds and Breffni.

Tom Joad

cormac halpin wrote: »

A 40,000 capacity stadium seems a bit excessive, unless it will be open to other codes?

Not trying to be funny but could you ever see Casement open to other codes??

WesternZulu

iDave wrote: »

New Casement looks impressive

Just wondering if we'll ever see this stadium.

I remember seeing artists impressions for other county grounds that looked impressive years ago that never materialised.

Kildare comes to mind and Pairc Ui Chaoimh plans seem to have been in place for years but there doesn't seem to be much progression there.

The GAA do need to upgrade stadiums.
I think that there should be a modern 25-30k stadium in all of the provinces (besides Leinster) rather that loads of counties having 40k monstrosities with only 1 side covered and the rest open to the elements when we don't have the weather for that type of design.

Bummer1234

Love the look of the new casement park, But traffic wise i always found it a disaster,Looking at it from a map,Alot of the traffic will be coming from the M1 and only really has one of ramp available for Casement, Its bad enough as it is with 15-20,000 people but 40,000,Its abit mad i think overall.

cormac halpin

Tom Joad wrote: »

Nail on head there - this is a white elephant pure and simple. The problem with Casement is its location - you couldn't pick a worse place for a football ground - I have never been to a match in Casement that started on time - there is next to no parking near it and a less than helpful local police force to assist traffic flow. I would agree that Clones shouldn't have a monoply but I can't think of a worse county ground in Ulster to chuck money at especially when there are other alternatives to Clones that have had a lot of money spent on them in recent times such as Athletic Grounds and Breffni.

ITs pure folly, another vanity project that will lie unused for massive periods of the year and be full perhaps once a year. A waste of resources.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Not trying to be funny but could you ever see Casement open to other codes??

Does that make it ok to waste NI money on it?

WesternZulu wrote: »

Just wondering if we'll ever see this stadium.

I remember seeing artists impressions for other county grounds that looked impressive years ago that never materialised.

Kildare comes to mind and Pairc Ui Chaoimh plans seem to have been in place for years but there doesn't seem to be much progression there.

The GAA do need to upgrade stadiums.
I think that there should be a modern 25-30k stadium in all of the provinces (besides Leinster) rather that loads of counties having 40k monstrosities with only 1 side covered and the rest open to the elements when we don't have the weather for that type of design.

Bummer1234 wrote: »

Love the look of the new casement park, But traffic wise i always found it a disaster,Looking at it from a map,Alot of the traffic will be coming from the M1 and only really has one of ramp available for Casement, Its bad enough as it is with 15-20,000 people but 40,000,Its abit mad i think overall.

PUC is making progress now as Frank needs his legacy and Frank gets what Frank wants.

The GAA should step in and knock some sense into these people instead of moaning about County Boards in debt when the horse has bolted.

Tom Joad

cormac halpin wrote: »

Does that make it ok to waste NI money on it?

Absolutely not - I'm agreeing with you - just simply making the point that Casement will never be open to other codes so proposal makes even less sense.

cormac halpin

Tom Joad wrote: »

Absolutely not - I'm agreeing with you - just simply making the point that Casement will never be open to other codes so proposal makes even less sense.

Its just baffling. I understand their issues up there, but surely a community stadium would make far more sense. What a waste.

munchkin_utd

cormac halpin wrote: »

Its just baffling. I understand their issues up there, but surely a community stadium would make far more sense. What a waste.

you havent done your research.

The original plan WAS for a joint stadium a little down the M1 where the Maze prison is but bit by bit opposition to the location grew and rather than one really swish shared stadium the existing 3 are being redeveloped.
The reasoning was that it would be better to have the facilities near town rather than in the middle of nowhere off a motorway (and beside the main Dublin-Belfast railway, but anyhow)
An unstated reason was a lack of love of the location on both sides as its history as THE main prision in Northern Ireland was always going to be associated with it.
And the catalysist for redeciding the issue in the first place leading to cancellation was belfast city council meddling in the whole affair by suggesting a stadium in Ormeau Park either by sacrificing parkland and/or existing community soccer pitches.

The timeline though was the joint stadium plan being abandoned due to lack of willingness and fear of massive cost (400million plus) in 2009 and in 2010 the announcement of 100million grants to be shared among the associations to doll up the existing facilities, with 50million STG cash for GAA (€57 mllion), 30million for soccer and 20 for Rugby.

I agree that a shared stadium would have been the best but right from the off the idea of basing it where the Maze prison (think H Block, hunger strikes, etc etc) was just plain strange and doomed to failure.

cormac halpin

munchkin_utd wrote: »

you havent done your research.

The original plan WAS for a joint stadium a little down the M1 where the Maze prison is but bit by bit opposition to the location grew and rather than one really swish shared stadium the existing 3 are being redeveloped.
The reasoning was that it would be better to have the facilities near town rather than in the middle of nowhere off a motorway (and beside the main Dublin-Belfast railway, but anyhow)
An unstated reason was a lack of love of the location on both sides as its history as THE main prision in Northern Ireland was always going to be associated with it.
And the catalysist for redeciding the issue in the first place leading to cancellation was belfast city council meddling in the whole affair by suggesting a stadium in Ormeau Park either by sacrificing parkland and/or existing community soccer pitches.

The timeline though was the joint stadium plan being abandoned due to lack of willingness and fear of massive cost (400million plus) in 2009 and in 2010 the announcement of 100million grants to be shared among the associations to doll up the existing facilities, with 50million STG cash for GAA (€57 mllion), 30million for soccer and 20 for Rugby.

I agree that a shared stadium would have been the best but right from the off the idea of basing it where the Maze prison (think H Block, hunger strikes, etc etc) was just plain strange and doomed to failure.

No, I was aware of all that re the H Blocks etc, I just still believe its madness to do what they are doing. Ravenhill is a shíthole and no amount of money will change that, as is Windsor, and to píss more money into these relics is madness no matter how you look at it. Perhaps the H Blocks was the wrong venue, but to minorly redevelop 3 white elephants over one state of the art stadium seems ridiculous, but then again, this is Belfast we're talking about and decisions are hard reached up there and it seems not much will change going forward in this regard.

68Murph68

According to an Antrim GAA document I found linked on Wikipedia the capacity of the stadium is already 32,600

http://antrim.gaa.ie/uploads/documents/AntrimStrategy.pdf
Page 15

What would be very interesting to see is how many times Casement was full in the last 10/15 years?

So the plain is to spend £78.5m to increase the capacity by 7,400 ? :eek:

I'm really struggling to see much in the way of logic in this.

munchkin_utd

cormac halpin wrote: »

No, I was aware of all that re the H Blocks etc, I just still believe its madness to do what they are doing. Ravenhill is a shíthole and no amount of money will change that, as is Windsor, and to píss more money into these relics is madness no matter how you look at it. Perhaps the H Blocks was the wrong venue, but to minorly redevelop 3 white elephants over one state of the art stadium seems ridiculous, but then again, this is Belfast we're talking about and decisions are hard reached up there and it seems not much will change going forward in this regard.

I wouldnt be throwing stones from the southern glasshouse either!

What happened the bertie bowl isnt a fierce amount different.
The government wanted to build a gigantic greenfield stadium in the middle of nowhere that no association really got behind for one reason or the other.

Another issue is that a stadium with 50 or 60 thousand capacity is too big for Northern Ireland soccer needs as theres only so many fans that that outfit attracts for internationals and with their current setup (playing god save the queen for starters) they are going to continue to be shunned by nationalist supporters and even more tellingly prospective players.
a 15,000 seater stadium is plenty for the IFA to be honest and even the IRFU has no interest in a larger stadium that would make their massive investment in Landsdowne worthless.

If a 50,000+seater stadium was built in Northern Ireland then they would be compelled to have some 6nation games up there to justify its existance leaving the Aviva standing idle and not generating revenue, leaving dissapointed season ticket box holders and costing the IRFU rent on the NI stadium when they could have used their own in Dublin for free.

but just like the soccer, a NI super stadium would still be far too large for normal Ulster rubgy games and if I understand it correctly even a major Ulster heineken cup knockout game wouldn't be held there as they cannot use their home venue (which is the reason they are going to Dublin for their next game as it CANNOT be held in Ravenhill even if they wanted it to !)

antoobrien

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I agree that a shared stadium would have been the best but right from the off the idea of basing it where the Maze prison (think H Block, hunger strikes, etc etc) was just plain strange and doomed to failure.

In fairness is it any worse than the idea of a (catholic) Cathedral being built on the site of an old jail where prisoners were regularly executed by the crown? They did this in Galway and it has "rehabilitated" the site of the old jail, it would be possible for the maze too if people were willing to let go of the past.

Tom Joad

antoobrien wrote: »

In fairness is it any worse than the idea of a (catholic) Cathedral being built on the site of an old jail where prisoners were regularly executed by the crown? They did this in Galway and it has "rehabilitated" the site of the old jail, it would be possible for the maze too if people were willing to let go of the past.

That was in Galway though - which is a million miles (metaphorically of course from Belfast).

Bottom line is this redevelopment of Casement is a white elephant and will never be justified as it will never be full, will never be shared with other sports and is an awful location logistically, especially when there is enough adequate grounds in Ulster which are under utilised such as Breffni Park which has a capacity of 32,000 and has had significant investment in recent times and is in a far better location..

antoobrien

Tom Joad wrote: »

That was in Galway though - which is a million miles (metaphorically of course from Belfast).

I grew up with my grandfather telling stories about how when he was a boy the tans used to come through the village in their trucks and everybody hid in case they'd get a beating or worse (a regular occurrence), so with all due disrespect be quiet. The fact that a large amount of the problems associated with what the crown did in this country have been forgotten or let go make the no less divisive than what happened in Belfast. The difference being that up north they did it to each other and more recently.

Next time you're in Galway take a walk through the Cathedral car park - you'll find the monument to people executed by the crown - a good many of whom who were stitched up. When the Cathedral was built the feelings about the jail were still raw, but time and a new better use has helped heal the wounds. There's no reason why the same cannot happen with the maze.

To misquote Behan slightly: F**k the backwards s**tes.

Tom Joad

antoobrien wrote: »

I grew up with my grandfather telling stories about how when he was a boy the tans used to come through the village in their trucks and everybody hid in case they'd get a beating or worse (a regular occurrence), so with all due disrespect be quiet. The fact that a large amount of the problems associated with what the crown did in this country have been forgotten or let go make the no less divisive than what happened in Belfast. The difference being that up north they did it to each other and more recently.

Next time you're in Galway take a walk through the Cathedral car park - you'll find the monument to people executed by the crown - a good many of whom who were stitched up. When the Cathedral was built the feelings about the jail were still raw, but time and a new better use has helped heal the wounds. There's no reason why the same cannot happen with the maze.

To misquote Behan slightly: F**k the backwards s**tes.

I agree with all the above - big difference is as you said above and while things have moved on in Belfast, not that much.

Anyway its a moot point now as the three codes are going there own way and the maze plan or any other plan to share facilities is not goin to happen in the short term. Still makes the redevelopment of Casement a ridiculous idea and is not needed and will be a white elephant.

Haven't been in Galway in a while but will definitely check out that monument.

cormac halpin

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I wouldnt be throwing stones from the southern glasshouse either!

What happened the bertie bowl isnt a fierce amount different.
The government wanted to build a gigantic greenfield stadium in the middle of nowhere that no association really got behind for one reason or the other.

Why the pop about the South? What has that got to do with anything, I have already highlighted the sheer number of white elephants in, what you deem, "The South" and cast aspersions on the decision to build the Frank bowl in Cork. Uncalled for.

Another issue is that a stadium with 50 or 60 thousand capacity is too big for Northern Ireland soccer needs as theres only so many fans that that outfit attracts for internationals and with their current setup (playing god save the queen for starters) they are going to continue to be shunned by nationalist supporters and even more tellingly prospective players.
a 15,000 seater stadium is plenty for the IFA to be honest and even the IRFU has no interest in a larger stadium that would make their massive investment in Landsdowne worthless.

Do the GAA need a 50 or 60K stadium? Wouldn't 25-30 do for all?

If a 50,000+seater stadium was built in Northern Ireland then they would be compelled to have some 6nation games up there to justify its existance leaving the Aviva standing idle and not generating revenue, leaving dissapointed season ticket box holders and costing the IRFU rent on the NI stadium when they could have used their own in Dublin for free.

but just like the soccer, a NI super stadium would still be far too large for normal Ulster rubgy games and if I understand it correctly even a major Ulster heineken cup knockout game wouldn't be held there as they cannot use their home venue (which is the reason they are going to Dublin for their next game as it CANNOT be held in Ravenhill even if they wanted it to !)

No one was saying anything different. 25-30 would suffice for Northern Ireland as a whole.

Hibbeler

Is there no site at all in Belfast that could have been considered for a single NI stadium? I think I read somewhere that they did look for one but couldnt agree on one as the GAA weren't too keen on it being in a largely unionist area and the soccer crowd not too keen on a largely nationalist area? Surely there is an area that could have been neutral ground? Pardon my ignorance of these matters.

As an aside, what do the plans for windsor park and ravenhill look like, capacity wise. Maybe they are the right size for NI soccer and Ulster rugby needs while the GAA one is too big? How much funding is UK government providing and how is it divided?

kksaints

Hibbeler wrote: »

Is there no site at all in Belfast that could have been considered for a single NI stadium? I think I read somewhere that they did look for one but couldnt agree on one as the GAA weren't too keen on it being in a largely unionist area and the soccer crowd not too keen on a largely nationalist area? Surely there is an area that could have been neutral ground? Pardon my ignorance of these matters.

As an aside, what do the plans for windsor park and ravenhill look like, capacity wise. Maybe they are the right size for NI soccer and Ulster rugby needs while the GAA one is too big? How much funding is UK government providing and how is it divided?

The plans for Windsor Park are for an 18000 seater stadium.
http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/7418/windsor-park-redevelopment-project/
The IFA dont actually own Windsor Park, Linfield FC do.
http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/8334996.stm

munchkin_utd

back on topic, the issue of Casement is in the news as they have just announced a public consultation on the plans (which you are supposed to consider and judge without any sign of them actually publishing them ! )
http://gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/0602132249-casement-park-public-consultation-announced/

Another view of the stadium is here:


It would be really interesting to see how they propose to deal with the traffic issues because the only concept I saw is to take the train, which is great for those of us in Cavan/ Monaghan/ Donegal/ Tyrone/ Fermanagh with no railway, leaving aside that few enough would take public transport to games anyhow. They did also mention a 1km exclusion zone, but thats also not going to create any extra parking spaces for the 99% that will travel by car no matter how much you doll up the alternatives.
The chaos caused by Donegal fans intent on getting as close to Croker as possible for the all Ireland final being a concrete example of fans ignoring all advice and just doing what they want - en-masse.

Tom Joad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

back on topic, the issue of Casement is in the news as they have just announced a public consultation on the plans (which you are supposed to consider and judge without any sign of them actually publishing them ! )
http://gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/0602132249-casement-park-public-consultation-announced/

Another view of the stadium is here:


It would be really interesting to see how they propose to deal with the traffic issues because the only concept I saw is to take the train, which is great for those of us in Cavan/ Monaghan/ Donegal/ Tyrone/ Fermanagh with no railway, leaving aside that few enough would take public transport to games anyhow. They did also mention a 1km exclusion zone, but thats also not going to create any extra parking spaces for the 99% that will travel by car no matter how much you doll up the alternatives.
The chaos caused by Donegal fans intent on getting as close to Croker as possible for the all Ireland final being a concrete example of fans ignoring all advice and just doing what they want - en-masse.

Bit in bold is so true and why this will be a disaster plus add in the distinctly unhelpful local constabulary and you have all the making of another white elephant - any money should be spent on Breffni or Clones..

celt262

Tom Joad wrote: »

Bit in bold is so true and why this will be a disaster plus add in the distinctly unhelpful local constabulary and you have all the making of another white elephant - any money should be spent on Breffni or Clones..

The brits are not going to spend money on a stadium in the South.

If money is to spent it should be on getting Donegal's ground up to scratch and flood lights for Clones. Although i would like to see a covered stand in Breffni covering the entire length of field. There are alot of good grounds in Ulster now and any money that is there should be used to keep them maintained and small upgrades where necessary.

No need for white elephants.

Tom Joad

Casement is a daft idea Celt but i think there is merit in having or aiming towards having a 40 - 45k ground in Ulster and best options for that is either Clones (poor access etc stands against it) or Breffni (wouldn't take much to bring it up to that standard and of the grounds in Ulster is probably best located.

As you said no more white elephants:)

celt262

Tom Joad wrote: »

Casement is a daft idea Celt but i think there is merit in having or aiming towards having a 40 - 45k ground in Ulster and best options for that is either Clones (poor access etc stands against it) or Breffni (wouldn't take much to bring it up to that standard and of the grounds in Ulster is probably best located.

As you said no more white elephants:)

Best located for the likes of us

I dont think there is merit in having a 40 - 45k ground in Ulster it wouldn't even be filled once a year.

Tom Joad

celt262 wrote: »

Best located for the likes of us

I dont think there is merit in having a 40 - 45k ground in Ulster it wouldn't even be filled once a year.

not really - not as if we'd have any interest in the final.

Seriously though Ulster is only province without one and breffni also has the advantage of location and would be a good alternate location for Portlaois, Mullingar etc..

celt262

Tom Joad wrote: »

not really - not as if we'd have any interest in the final.

Seriously though Ulster is only province without one and breffni also has the advantage of location and would be a good alternate location for Portlaois, Mullingar etc..

Id love to have that in Cavan but when it didn't happen in boom it wont happen now. It's not a bad stadium anyway and alot of counties would love to have it especially the like of Kildare. Meath and Louth and even Donegal.

J Cheever Loophole

The public money that is being used to redevelop Casement was available on a 'use it or lose it' basis. It had all to be used on one ground only, and of course given the source of the money, the ground / site chosen had to be in the six counties. This is the background to the Casement redevelopment.

The ground itself would have been a regular host for Ulster Finals before the troubles - it holds the record attendance for a GAA match played in Ulster - the 41,000 who attended the 1961 Ulster Final between Down and Armagh. It has in recent years held crowds in excess of 20,000 and on one or two occasions in excess of 30,000 - two that come to mind are the 35,000 who attended the Down v Derry Ulster semi-final in 1992, and the 32,000 who attended one of the Antrim v Derry Ulster semi-finals in 2000.

The increase in the official capacity to 38,000 will enable it to host Ulster Finals, and my understanding is that the intention is to host other major events, including concerts. Again from memory, the ground will have executive boxes.

Casement has parking issues yes, but these same issues are common to all the major grounds in Ulster which occupy inned city or urban sites, i.e. every other major County ground in Ulster.

I personally think it's great and cannot wait to see it finished - my only gripe is that the Andersonstown Road end will not have covered accommodation for spectators.

munchkin_utd

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

<snip>
I personally think it's great and cannot wait to see it finished - my only gripe is that the Andersonstown Road end will not have covered accommodation for spectators.

why is that a problem?

The 2 covered stands along the pitch will likely cater for 20,000+spectators between them which is plenty for all but the very odd midsummer championship clash.