GAA Infastructure

ciarriaithuaidh

threeball wrote: »

I dont care if the main stadium is in Cork or Thurles but i assume thurles would be preferred option if there was one high quality stadium with large capacity in munster. We don't need large stadia in killarney, limerick, thurles and Cork. High quality smaller grounds is the way to go and if a game isn't worthy of bringing to Thurles (kerry v waterford for example) then by all means play it in cork in their high end 15-20k stadium. Way better atmosphere for supporters which players react to.

I get what you are saying...and starting from scratch again, you might have some good points, but Semple Stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Fitzgerald Stadium are all in existence right now and are not going to be demolished or even downgraded so it's a bit pointless discusing it.

threeball

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

I get what you are saying...and starting from scratch again, you might have some good points, but Semple Stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Fitzgerald Stadium are all in existence right now and are not going to be demolished or even downgraded so it's a bit pointless discusing it.

I'd rather reduce the capacity and increase the quality of the existing white elephants than keep the current mine is bigger than yours policy being persued by county boards. Semple is due a major upgrade if we get the nod for the RWC anyway. If we keep going as we are a huge amount of funds will be hoovered up every year maintaining huge rarely used stadiums. Qatar is following a similar model for their world cup but luckily for them they have billions to pish away.
When things aren't right sometimes its better to go back to the start and begin again.

Pete_Cavan

threeball wrote: »

How are they being left to rot, they need upgrading to being more than just a hill with concrete on. The type of stadium you propose does nothing for the game as a spectacle. Even high quality games lose their wow factor in half empty stadiums just look at Croke park. Premiership teams build stadiums that suit their attendence needs, rugby teams do the same as do every other major sport except here in gaa land where we build stadiums where the tumbleweeds make more noise than the crowd.
Look at some of the wonderful small rugby stadia in the UK, a sport with similar attendences to ourselves and buckets more money. In my opinion theres nothing worse than watching a game in a half empty stadium and only championship produces high attendence games. People don't give a damn if they need to travel an hour or an hour and a half to a game once the experience is worth it.

The type of stadium I am proposing is an upgrade of existing stadia by building a good quality main stand which has decent seating for fans and good player facilities beneath. This is necessary expenditure given the state of many stands around the country. Players, officials, media and fans deserve a minimum standard of facilities and that is not being met in many places at present. What you are proposing is way more expensive because you want to demolish and remodel every county ground to give a smaller capacity. Look at PUC, your 20k stadium incurs more cost because you have to demolish the terraces behind both goals, why not keep them and have the ground available for bigger games? Take Fitzgerald Stadium/Pairc Tailteann/the Hyde/Wexford Park/several others, your plan to demolish the entire stadium and rebuild a new 10k stadium is a lot more expensive than simply building a new main seated stand and accepting that the terraces are what they are. You also building a few of "mini crokers" around the country which will also be very expensive.

You cant compare GAA stadia to small soccer/rugby stadia in the UK. For a start, they play on a much smaller pitch so can build a compact fully enclosed bowl stadium within not much more than the footprint of a GAA pitch. They also tend to/have to avoid terraces. The perimeter of a GAA pitch is huge, you have 140 - 150m on each side of the pitch alone (almost half the perimeter of a soccer pitch), that length of a stand doesnt have to be very deep to hold a large number of people, especially if standing. A 10k person terrace along the side of a GAA pitch is not actually that big, most grounds have that already. Again a 140m long 7k seated stand isnt that big, especially if it has to accommodate 2 - 4 30 player changing rooms, referees rooms, medical room, stewards room, media room, as well as supporter toilets and kiosks underneath. These are the minimum facilities needed in a county ground these days. When building a structure to accommodate all that, the marginal cost of putting in 1k extra seats is probably quite small given the size of the structure required.

Your plan does not save any money and will only damage attendances and therefore income. Exiling the Kerry and Cork footballers to Semple would destroy the Munster Championship for example. Similarly in Connacht, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo supporters would soon get sick of travelling to Castlebar for Connacht Championship matches even when Mayo are not playing. The same goes for Munster Hurling Championship, while Semple has a great history, the people of Cork, Limerick and Waterford dont want to have to go there for every championship match. You also have to consider the residents of the towns with your "mini crokers", should they have to put up with 20 - 40k people descending on their town on a regular basis? That idea gives the worst of all worlds.

threeball

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The type of stadium I am proposing is an upgrade of existing stadia by building a good quality main stand which has decent seating for fans and good player facilities beneath. This is necessary expenditure given the state of many stands around the country. Players, officials, media and fans deserve a minimum standard of facilities and that is not being met in many places at present. What you are proposing is way more expensive because you want to demolish and remodel every county ground to give a smaller capacity. Look at PUC, your 20k stadium incurs more cost because you have to demolish the terraces behind both goals, why not keep them and have the ground available for bigger games? Take Fitzgerald Stadium/Pairc Tailteann/the Hyde/Wexford Park/several others, your plan to demolish the entire stadium and rebuild a new 10k stadium is a lot more expensive than simply building a new main seated stand and accepting that the terraces are what they are. You also building a few of "mini crokers" around the country which will also be very expensive.

You cant compare GAA stadia to small soccer/rugby stadia in the UK. For a start, they play on a much smaller pitch so can build a compact fully enclosed bowl stadium within not much more than the footprint of a GAA pitch. They also tend to/have to avoid terraces. The perimeter of a GAA pitch is huge, you have 140 - 150m on each side of the pitch alone (almost half the perimeter of a soccer pitch), that length of a stand doesnt have to be very deep to hold a large number of people, especially if standing. A 10k person terrace along the side of a GAA pitch is not actually that big, most grounds have that already. Again a 140m long 7k seated stand isnt that big, especially if it has to accommodate 2 - 4 30 player changing rooms, referees rooms, medical room, stewards room, media room, as well as supporter toilets and kiosks underneath. These are the minimum facilities needed in a county ground these days. When building a structure to accommodate all that, the marginal cost of putting in 1k extra seats is probably quite small given the size of the structure required.

Your plan does not save any money and will only damage attendances and therefore income. Exiling the Kerry and Cork footballers to Semple would destroy the Munster Championship for example. Similarly in Connacht, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo supporters would soon get sick of travelling to Castlebar for Connacht Championship matches even when Mayo are not playing. The same goes for Munster Hurling Championship, while Semple has a great history, the people of Cork, Limerick and Waterford dont want to have to go there for every championship match. You also have to consider the residents of the towns with your "mini crokers", should they have to put up with 20 - 40k people descending on their town on a regular basis? That idea gives the worst of all worlds.

So you basically want a continuation of whats happening at the moment. Building gigantic stands in poor souless football arenas. Castlebar is a prime example. Pearse stadium another, limerick, Roscommon is heading that way, portlaoise. Nowlan park is an example of a nicely developed ground but its a little too large.
The league semis today will be played in a half empty croke park when there could be an electric atmosphere if it was played in an appropriate sized arena in kildare for example.

As for killing the chamionship if people have to travel well thats just a joke. Peple will travel anywhere for big games, its only 4 to 5 occasions in an entire year and thats if you're lucky enough to make a final.

Pete_Cavan

threeball wrote: »

So you basically want a continuation of whats happening at the moment. Building gigantic stands in poor souless football arenas. Castlebar is a prime example. Pearse stadium another, limerick, Roscommon is heading that way, portlaoise. Nowlan park is an example of a nicely developed ground but its a little too large.
The league semis today will be played in a half empty croke park when there could be an electric atmosphere if it was played in an appropriate sized arena in kildare for example.

As for killing the chamionship if people have to travel well thats just a joke. Peple will travel anywhere for big games, its only 4 to 5 occasions in an entire year and thats if you're lucky enough to make a final.

How is Pearse Stadium or O'Moore Park different from Nowlan Park, all have similar capacities (Nowlan Park 25k, Pearse Stadium 26k, O'Moore Park 27k)? Why are two "gigantic stands in poor souless arena" but not the other? If anything, Pearse Stadium and O'Moore Park have smaller stands because they have more terracing. And where do you think Roscommon is going?

I have constantly held up O'Connor Park as an example of what most counties should be aiming for, it has a smaller capacity then Nowlan Park (only 20k). I have been saying 15 - 17k is sufficient for most grounds and that is achievable by building one new stand which is absolutely needed in most cases due to the poor standard of existing stands. I dont want a continuation of whats happening at the moment, I want smaller stadiums. Where you have terraces that can hold 20k, you either keep what you have or demolish it and level the site for temporary seating in the future. You seem to think that demolishing existing stands/terraces on all sides of a pitch and rebuilding new stands all around is cheaper than building one new stand!

And I have said that more games should be moved out of Croke Park and into these smaller grounds to give a better atmosphere. You have been the one peddling the "mini Crokers" idea which will only result in more games played in half empty stadiums!

threeball

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How is Pearse Stadium or O'Moore Park different from Nowlan Park, all have similar capacities (Nowlan Park 25k, Pearse Stadium 26k, O'Moore Park 27k)? Why are two "gigantic stands in poor souless arena" but not the other? If anything, Pearse Stadium and O'Moore Park have smaller stands because they have more terracing. And where do you think Roscommon is going?

I have constantly held up O'Connor Park as an example of what most counties should be aiming for, it has a smaller capacity then Nowlan Park (only 20k). I have been saying 15 - 17k is sufficient for most grounds and that is achievable by building one new stand which is absolutely needed in most cases due to the poor standard of existing stands. I dont want a continuation of whats happening at the moment, I want smaller stadiums. Where you have terraces that can hold 20k, you either keep what you have or demolish it and level the site for temporary seating in the future. You seem to think that demolishing existing stands/terraces on all sides of a pitch and rebuilding new stands all around is cheaper than building one new stand!

And I have said that more games should be moved out of Croke Park and into these smaller grounds to give a better atmosphere. You have been the one peddling the "mini Crokers" idea which will only result in more games played in half empty stadiums!

I mentioned nowlan park as a stadium that has been developed to provide an atmosphere you coneniently ignored the part where I said it was too big.

The game today just proved my point. Croker provided the facilities and surface for players to perform it was just let down on atmosphere because the stadium is too big.
if you think we'll save money by building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums just because theres bits there already you're sorely mistaken. We will never develop a culture of following your team in atmospheres like those and that is where the real revenue lies.

Pete_Cavan

threeball wrote: »

I mentioned nowlan park as a stadium that has been developed to provide an atmosphere you coneniently ignored the part where I said it was too big.

The game today just proved my point. Croker provided the facilities and surface for players to perform it was just let down on atmosphere because the stadium is too big.
if you think we'll save money by building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums just because theres bits there already you're sorely mistaken. We will never develop a culture of following your team in atmospheres like those and that is where the real revenue lies.

I have been saying most grounds need one new stand, how is that "building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums"? If it is oversized because of existing terraces then you either knock the terrace or leave it as is. In either case you are not building an oversized stadium, it being oversized is a legacy issue but reducing capacity is only going to incur more costs. In any case, it is still cheaper than building Nowlan Parks everywhere.

keane2097

Seems pretty stupid to obsess about making grounds smaller when they are already built.

keane2097

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think GAA planners need to realise they don't have to have a big enough ground for all games.

by having a smaller capacity for some games, it generates demand and forces advance ticket sales, therefore improving planning for a game - programs, food outlets, stewards etc

This - god be with the days of not being sure if you'd get a ticket for a game. The buzz was brilliant.

Pete_Cavan

Works now starting on new stand in Ruislip for London GAA;

http://www.hoganstand.com/football/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=235605

Some other interesting aspects to this, London will play home games at London Irish Rugbys training facility during the works;

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/london-gaa-to-play-2016-league-games-at-london-irish-base-1.2179566

They are also looking to sell naming rights for the ground;

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0417/694712-london-seeking-title-sponsor-for-ruislip-ground/

Hibbeler

Does that mean they might play games at the Madjeski in Reading as well ? Good to see ruislip being updated however

I'm assuming the London Irish rugby training centre has a big enough pitch for gaelic games?

Wasn't there a lower leagues soccer team that offered to let London GAA use their facilities during the works as well?

zetecescort

work begins at Pairc Ui Chaoimh

J Cheever Loophole

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

All the talk has been about how the capacity is too high and unnecessary. My point is that the money is not being spent on the capacity; the terraces behind the goals already account for 24k, the uncovered seated stand is being reduced from 10k to 8k, that gives a capacity of 32k with minimal works which are necessary. A new main stand, which is needed, is going to push capacity over 40k anyway.

Demolishing the existing main stand and building a good quality new stand with modern facilities is going to cost tens of millions anyway. Building a basic stand with no other facilities will mean that nothing will happen there on non-match days but a good chunk of the CBA is based on somethings happening on non-match days. You can reduce costs but it is possible that that will reduce the benefits by an even greater amount. Whether the existing plan is worth the money they plan to spend is obviously questionable. The fact remains that a new stand is needed which is going to incur a substantial cost and this will give a capacity of >40k.

I would have to say that for a €70 million investment my immediate reaction is one of disappointment that what you've outlined is going to be the extent of the redevelopment.

I would have thought that aiming for a design that would be something akin to St Mary's Stadium or the King Power Stadium would have made more sense - a fully covered and modern 30 - 35,000 seater stadium.

nice_guy80

GROUNDS FOR CONCERN

good article about the lack of value for money in GAA projects

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/grounds-for-concern/

J Cheever Loophole

A brilliant article - talk about hitting the nail on the head.

nice_guy80

A lot of those building contracts end up with well connected contractors.

See Pearse Stadium and the Connollys

zetecescort

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

munchkin_utd

nice_guy80 wrote: »

GROUNDS FOR CONCERN

good article about the lack of value for money in GAA projects

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/grounds-for-concern/

very good article indeed .

I could throw another few stadiums into the mix that have been opened recently in Germany that cost a fraction of PUC

for instance , completely new 30600 capacity (20k seats, remaining terrace) stadium in Augsburg for €45million


for instance, completely new 15445 capacity all covered stadium in Ingolstadt for €20million


for instance Magdeburg built a completely new 27,000 capacity (only 4000 standing) for €31million


why the GAA spends so much in comparison boggles the mind, and the article points out this anomoly.

J Cheever Loophole

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

I'd like to think that's it's possible to demand what amounts to modern spectator facilities in the 21st Century without feeling that you're somehow compromising on the GAA experience!!

blue note

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

A lot of the "experience" we want are comfortable seats, room in the tunnels, enough (non-smelly) bathrooms.

And things like an understandable announcer around the ground and the possibility of getting a cup of tea at half time without having to battle crowds for it would be nice too.

A lot of our grounds don't come close to these standards.

Pete_Cavan

In fairness, most of the examples being given are new stadiums on a greenfield site which is obviously cheaper than demolition and rebuilding. Also a stand along the length of a GAA pitch is considerably longer than that on a soccer pitch. We also need to be sure we are comparing apples with apples. For example, those figures seem to be cost of construction, is €70m the overall development budget for PUC (including demolition, new stand and works to other stands plus second pitch, fit out and supply of FF&E for gym, catering areas, museum, etc.)? A contract for demolition only has been awarded, we will have to wait and see what value the construction contract will come in at and what is the scope of that contract (does it include fit out and FF&E).

The article is right in that the GAA needs to be getting better value for money for their overall capital investment across all facilities. What we need is a capital projects committee in Croke Park who oversee these projects, approve budgets, scale back if needed and ensure value for money. Laois have just lost money selling land they bought which wasn’t even suitable, Croke Park need to be reviewing and approving these types of purchases because ultimately they will pick up the tab for these decisions.

The Lost Sheep

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

What is wrong with being able to go a game where you can watch the game in a comfortable seat/decent quality terrace with decent facilities to get a drink/some food etc. People do go for the games but that doesnt mean they should expect **** facilities elsewhere

ciarriaithuaidh

McKenna has written some tripe before but agree with almost every word of that article. The point about Castlebar is a very pertinent one. €16m for a stand being held up by huge pillars in this day and age..idiotic.

The debate on Páirc uí Chaíomh, such as it is, is being clouded by parochial "Cork needs a major stadium" viewpoints..which to my mind obscure the farcical lack of planning and rel development of the project. As McKenna states, they are saying the project includes a "centre of excellence", when the reality is they are throwing down 1 pitch outside the stadium with a clubhouse next to it. Calling that a centre of excellence is fairly ludicrous.

As I posted on this thread before, it's no good arguing about the amount of stadia already in existence. If we were starting from scratch would it be value for money or good planning to have large stadia in Killarney, Cork, Limerick AND Thurles within Munster for example...No, definitely not. However, they are there now and are not going to be demolished. What CAN be said though, is that unreasonable expenditure on any venue should be questioned and scrutinised. The Gaelic Grounds and Semple Stadium "redevelopments" mentioned in the article for example.

With the proposed developments in Belfast (although running into planning problems), Cork and I believe Ennis in the pipeline, it really is worthwhile analysing all future projects to make sure they are A)Totally necessary and reasonable and B)Cost effective.
I'd love to see/hear a breakdown of where exactly the €70m is going for the Cork project, because as McKenna mentions, there is basically 1 brand new stand being built and a bit of re-modelling to the other 3 stands/terraces.

PTH2009

Is there any gaa stadium that is all seated from the top of my head I can't think of any.

iDave

PTH2009 wrote: »

Is there any gaa stadium that is all seated from the top of my head I can't think of any.

As the article stated Mayo will laughably claim there's is if you count backless concrete slabs as seats.

As someone already pointed a new stand in the 21st century with pillars, PILLARS!!!

Hibbeler

iDave wrote: »

As the article stated Mayo will laughably claim there's is if you count backless concrete slabs as seats.

As someone already pointed a new stand in the 21st century with pillars, PILLARS!!!

Whatever about pillars. I'm more surprised that in this day and age concrete slabs still count as "seats"

Boom__Boom

Have heard from a few different people that the Pairc Ui Chaoimh project is looking like it will end up significantly over budget - heard talk that it's looking that it will end up closer to the €80m mark.

citykat

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

They've already gone down this route in CP. The stadium announcements can be deafening at times. At half time/between games there's always some class of entertainment accompanied by said announcer blowing the ears off you whether you want it or not. I wonder sometimes is it done on purpose to drive the punters out of their seats and to the shops/bars in the stands.
The one facet in which they haven't aped the Aviva is pints in your seats. If that ever comes in, I'll be staying at home.

ardmacha

Pete_Cavan wrote:

The article is right in that the GAA needs to be getting better value for money for their overall capital investment across all facilities. What we need is a capital projects committee in Croke Park who oversee these projects, approve budgets, scale back if needed and ensure value for money

This is a very wise suggestion and there are people in the GAA "family" who know both value of a Euro and the cost of construction.

citykat wrote: »

They've already gone down this route in CP. The stadium announcements can be deafening at times. At half time/between games there's always some class of entertainment accompanied by said announcer blowing the ears off you whether you want it or not. I wonder sometimes is it done on purpose to drive the punters out of their seats and to the shops/bars in the stands.

I couldn't agree more, the noise of the announcements in Croke Park can be odious and is completely and absolutely unnecessary.

citykat

McKenna discussed safety in his article and in particular mentioned Croke Park. Whatever about inside the ground, after the drawn hurling AI last year I found the experience outside the ground on Jones Rd. to be appalling. Not knowing what I was letting myself in for, I tried to go down the road towards Clonliffe to get to just off Ballybough Rd. where I had parked. At the junction of Jones Road and Clonliffe there was what I can only describe as mayhem with people converging from all corners and nobody moving. What ensured was a scrum with people getting irate with one another and the Gardai. The Gardai then started stopping people from exiting the Hogan Stand on the south side presumably to ‘let the crowd off’ which only inflamed matters.
From that programme on Croke Park last year, it was highlighted how the Gardai monitor crowds on match days. Hopefully they’ll review and learn from that day. It was a very uncomfortable (and potentially dangerous) experience for an adult. I can only imagine what it would be like for a child.