GAA Infastructure

shockframe

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Well, so far the best thing to come from the PuC clusterf*%k is that my club managed to get a rake of the old seats for a pittance. Green and White to match the jersey too!

Kilmallock?

DragonKhan

shockframe wrote: »

The plans for the puc were unrealistic to begin with.

40,000/45,000 or close to it might have been the norm 20 years ago but with the back door in place provincial crowds are unlikely to be sellouts anymore.Even the 2014 final there was 36,000 or so there. In a knockout game that would have been bigger but the days of munster providing the drama it once did are over.The football games against Kerry since 2001 have barely been half full. Even the recent club finals compared to its 70s heyday were well down in attendances. A stadium with 35,000 is adequate enough to me as Cork not only will get 1 or 2 games at max per year it isn’t central enough to warrant a qualifier or quarter final type game.

Talk of gigs is also fancy. It’s not as if Cork is short of music venues either. Acts like the Wild Beasts, Gary Numan and the Waterboys have all played the opera house in the last month or so.Hassle with promoters over the Springsteen gig in 2013 I believe. Anyways can you imagine arguing the merits of Kendrick Lamar or Vampire Weekend to the Cork County board.

Theres no doubt that PUC could do with a facelift but the current state of both codes looks disastrous. If the county stays in its current slump crowds will stay down. I was in a few places in Cork city during the summer and I couldn’t believe that there wasn’t one Cork flag flying anywhere.Supposedly it’s the same in the big towns like Ballincollig and Carrigaline. Compare that to the last decade (throw in 2010 at a push) when they were last successful-no shortage of colour then.If the teams are in mediocrity building a stadium won’t make any difference.

There seems to be this thinking of 'build it and they will come'. Nowadays people have every sport they could think of at the touch of a button not to mention Netflix or Spotify.The GAA is still important but there is a world of choice out there. Cork GAA is in a terrible state. People will seek out alternatives if its not run right.

I’d be in favour of Cork getting the ground up to a decent standard because it’s an excellent spot for a match and a few pints after but the way the thing has been proposed and handled is clearly not the way forward.

The 2014 final attendance was restricted due to safety issues with the Stadium. Don't under estimate the amount of people who hate going to the Pairc due to how awful an experience it was sitting there.

You mention the Opera house being used but it would have nothing like the attendance a full Pairc UÍ Chaoimh would have. It would be able to have actual big international gigs at it if it is done right (maybe a few nights of Garth Brooks haha)

keane2097

I must say the idea of having these huge concerts in GAA grounds in various parts of the country strikes me as major pie in the sky.

What would the capacity of PUC set up for a concert be and how huge an act would you need to get in there to fill it? You won't just automatically get the same attendances to concerts in Cork as you do in Dublin by wishing for it.

CrabRevolution

Not only that, but every proposed county ground includes the "can be used for concerts" line as part of the justifications. How many large concerts do they think occur every year in the country? Even then we have all the usual concert venues of the point, iveagh gardens, rds, olympia etc. before needing to go to a 20'000+ capacity grounds.

Boom__Boom

There was a meeting in Cork last night to provide updates to the club delegates on the state of the finances in relation to the Pairc Ui Chaoimh project. This meeting had been cancelled twice at very short notice before last night. No media were admitted.

The person I was talking to was talking to someone who was at the meeting and they said the feeling they got was that it was/is an utter disaster - the new revised expanded cost now stands at €78.4m - already €11.4 million over budget and they have only signed a contract with the main contractors (Sisk) now, so there is still a lot more possibilities of cost overruns. Opinion of a few people seemed to think it will get a lot closer to the €100million figure before it is done, given how mismanaged the project has been so far. Apparently there is no planning permission to replace one of the stands and some of terraces which were knocked and it seems to be fingers crossed on that front with the planning authorities.

A couple of delegates were trying to ask questions/get more information and all they got was spin and BS - questions about who were responsible, what caused the over-runs, how the project was going to be paid for were all swerved/dismissed/avoided.

One delegate proposed going back to the clubs and asking if they was still a mandate for going ahead with the current project/see if the club want the scope of the project reduced as it stands considering how over-budget it is already but was shot down immediately.

The attitude to the EU investigation seemed to "Yerra it'll be grand" with zero evidence for why they believed this. They did say that €15m of the €30m the government are contributing could be deemed illegal by the EU, so that if the worse happens on that front it will mean a €15m shortfall on that front. There seems to be the opinion that there should be no problem with the other €15m.

The person at the meeting seemed to think that Croke Park will end up on the hook for millions, as the EU situation means the government won't be able to put in any more money. Said what was striking was that some of the top table folk didn't seem all that bothered about how the project was going at all, while some of the others seemed to realise that the project is an utter clusterf.uck.

Cork GAA have issued a statement on this, which unsurprisingly seems to be of the "everything's grand, everything's great"
Worth keeping in mind that the current Cork County Board PRO is stepping down at convention, after resigning a few months back and being persuaded to see out his term.

Press Release for Immediate Publication

Páirc Uí Chaoimh Contractor Appointed

Cork County Board delegates, having been provided with an up to date briefing on the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh by members of the Steering Committee and Design Team this evening, (Tuesday November 17), have approved the appointment of Cork company, John Sisk and Son (Holdings) Ltd. as the main contractor for the project.

The appointment follows the confirmation that the Business Case advanced by the Board for the project had been deemed to be fully compliant with the Public Funding Code and had been approved by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for Exchequer support. That State Aid is currently been notified for assessment at EU level, through a submission by the Government through the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, a process that is likely to be completed in the short term.

Enabling works on the Páirc Uí Chaoimh site will commence immediately.

County Board chairman, Gerard Lane, said there was now a clear pathway for progress to be made on the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh and the establishment of a Centre of Excellence. “ We are very confident that the project will be completed by June 2nd 2017. I think there is great sense of anticipation within the GAA community and among sports people in general about this project. The Cork GAA public deserves top class, modern facilities to house its games and to meet today’s expectation of players, coaches and spectators alike. The City will also benefit considerably from the economic benefits to be generated by major games and events at the stadium.”

Cork County Board said that Páirc Uí Chaoimh would be an integral part of Marina Park, the public amenity being developed by Cork City Council. “The Board has worked very closely with Cork City Council and its appointed consultants for Marina Park to ensure that the facility integrates with the public park”.

http://gaacork.ie/news/368967/Pairc_Ui_Chaoimh_Contractor_Appointed

Boom__Boom

No problem - long-term tickets are going to cover the cost (and if you believe that I have a big tower in Paris that's for sale for scrap metal too)

The rise in cost from the originally projected €70m was put down to increased construction costs after a prolonged recession, extra piling, the relocation of floodlights, and the implementation of a sprinkler system.

It's all the recessions fault :rolleyes:
Oh and the fact that they had to put in a sprinkler system - no way anyone could have forseen that :rolleyes:

a ticket scheme will cover the remainder of the €78.4m costs. Naming rights are an option for further funding.

If the ticket scheme will definitely cover the cost overruns then why was naming rights for the stadium mentioned ??? 100% the naming rights to the stadium will be sold. Why are clubs getting constantly harrassed about the county board draw.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh redevelopment cost to top €78m

Thursday, November 19, 2015By Denis Hurley

Cork GAA chiefs expect the total cost of redeveloping Páirc Uí Chaoimh to now exceed €78m, but are adamant the increase will be covered by the sale of long-term tickets.

On Tuesday night, county board delegates assembled for a special meeting where they were appraised of updates regarding the project, including the appointment of John Sisk & Son (Holdings) Ltd as main contactors.

A presentation detailed the remaining work, with each stand to be treated as a separate site so as to allow progress in tandem with each other. Cork hope the stadium will be finished on June 2, 2017 with a total capacity of 45,000 — 13,000 in the south (formerly covered) stand, 8,000 in the north stand and 12,000 on each of the terraces.

The rise in cost from the originally projected €70m was put down to increased construction costs after a prolonged recession, extra piling, the relocation of floodlights, and the implementation of a sprinkler system.

With €63.75m worth of funding in place — subject to EU clearance, which the board are confident will arrive by January at the latest — a ticket scheme will cover the remainder of the €78.4m costs. Naming rights are an option for further funding.

In a statement yesterday, the board made it clear the stadium would be an integral part of the new Marina Park project, with a good relationship existing with local residents after four years of consultation.

“The board has worked very closely with Cork City Council and its appointed consultants for Marina Park to ensure the facility integrates with the public park,” it said, while chairman Ger Lane added: “The Cork GAA public deserves top class, modern facilities to house its games and to meet today’s expectation of players, coaches and spectators alike. The city will also benefit considerably from the economic benefits to be generated by major games and events at the stadium.”

In addition, Cork and Chill Insurance have announced a renewal of their sponsorship deal. The new three-year agreement is said to be seven figures and will cover senior and U21 hurling and football teams.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-cost-to-top-78m-365832.html

homerjay2005

so they were quoted recessions prices for construction but with things picking up, the builders have upped the prices again????

BonnieSituation

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition. What I don't understand is why the only consideration always seems to be capacity. I would much prefer a modern, covered stadium that was built around realistic expectations rather than aspiration ones.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

and that is up to each county to upgrade them. slowly but surely this process is getting there however - theres multiple county boards who have developed their stadiums in recent years and theres more planned - Antrim, Cork etc etc.

The fact that it is up to each individual county to upgrade them is the major farce. Duplication and waste of resources abound. And that's before you get to Cork.

The GAA needs an overall "federal" infrastructure strategy.

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

It's a fair point. Yes, there needs to be a decent stadium in Cork, but this project is overblown and the "centre of excellence" is a box-ticking sham of an exercise.
Ironic that this is Cork aswell, which for the biggest county geographically has a tiny number of Games Develoment officers, 5 or so i believe. That and being a dual county on top of things. One could easily conclude that Cork GAA have their priorities in the wrong order.

That's some conclusion. Surprised Frank hasn't come knocking after such a scurrilous remark. :P

---

It's just so bizarre that a project like PUC's redevelopment, which everyone agrees need to be done cos PUC and PUR are absolute shoiteholes, can't get consensus on how it should be done.

There's serious "...but Dublin have..." going on.

iDave

Looks like Leinster Council still pursuing this mad idea

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinster-council-pressing-ahead-with-m50-stadium-plan-370927.html

Coming at the same time Meath are stepping up their own plans for Navan

http://hoganstand.com/Meath/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=247879

Really what is the point of this M50 Bowl.

Surely the lessons of Limerick need to be looked at.

http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=247960

Pete_Cavan

iDave wrote: »

Looks like Leinster Council still pursuing this mad idea

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/leinster-council-pressing-ahead-with-m50-stadium-plan-370927.html

“If you ever go out the M50, there’s a junction seven and a junction nine but there’s no junction eight.

“Junction eight was meant to be obviously between seven and nine and if you go out there and look on the right hand side, outside the M50, there’s a big land bank in there and some people speculated that you put in junction eight and put in a stadium there on that land bank.

“You won’t be a million miles away from the LUAS line, you’ll have the infrastructure of the motorway and you won’t be bringing everyone straight into the traffic nest that’s in Dublin.”

That has to be a joke! If that is what John Horan thinks then he should be removed from his position immediately. We should thank our lucky stars that there is no J8 on the M50, if there was the traffic would be even worse than it is now. A big problem with traffic flow on the M50 is the fact that J9, J10 and J11 are too close together. Adding in J8 and more merging will only cripple the M50. People need to drop this idea that everything should be built on the M50, since the M50 was built we have spent hundreds of millions upgrading junctions, widening with additional lanes, removing the toll booths and yet it is still like a car park!

Building a new junction on the M50 will be extremely expensive, requiring new ramps and probably a new bridge. The NRA arent going to pay for it. If anything, they will be doing all they can to prevent another junction from being added, they will not agree to something which will only add to congestion on the road.

And not a million miles away from the Luas! The Luas is at J9 Red Cow, if the stadium is at a new J8, how do people get from the Luas to the stadium, walk along the M50? There is no landbank north of the Red Cow within walking distance. Clearly a case of squeezing in the word Luas just to pay lip service to public transport but really not giving a **** about it at all.

So they think the GAA should buy a large plot of some of the most expensive land in the country (probably zoned industrial/commercial), along the M50, pay for the construction of a new motorway junction and get approval for a stadium which can only be accessed by car on one of the busiest road in the country, with no public transport, which goes against practically every applicable piece of planning policy and yet ground could be broken within five years! Even if they get through all that, and the cost associated with it, they still have to actually build a 40,000 capacity stadium (costing over €100m if PUC is anything to go by) plus a hell of a lot of car parking spaces. Madness

nice_guy80

Leitrim Centre of Excellence ready to play/train on in January

pity the Connacht Council spent €8 million on a white elephant outside of Ballyhaunis, instead each county could have had a decent centre of their own.

Prop Joe

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That has to be a joke! If that is what John Horan thinks then he should be removed from his position immediately. We should thank our lucky stars that there is no J8 on the M50, if there was the traffic would be even worse than it is now. A big problem with traffic flow on the M50 is the fact that J9, J10 and J11 are too close together. Adding in J8 and more merging will only cripple the M50. People need to drop this idea that everything should be built on the M50, since the M50 was built we have spent hundreds of millions upgrading junctions, widening with additional lanes, removing the toll booths and yet it is still like a car park!

Building a new junction on the M50 will be extremely expensive, requiring new ramps and probably a new bridge. The NRA arent going to pay for it. If anything, they will be doing all they can to prevent another junction from being added, they will not agree to something which will only add to congestion on the road.

And not a million miles away from the Luas! The Luas is at J9 Red Cow, if the stadium is at a new J8, how do people get from the Luas to the stadium, walk along the M50? There is no landbank north of the Red Cow within walking distance. Clearly a case of squeezing in the word Luas just to pay lip service to public transport but really not giving a **** about it at all.

So they think the GAA should buy a large plot of some of the most expensive land in the country (probably zoned industrial/commercial), along the M50, pay for the construction of a new motorway junction and get approval for a stadium which can only be accessed by car on one of the busiest road in the country, with no public transport, which goes against practically every applicable piece of planning policy and yet ground could be broken within five years! Even if they get through all that, and the cost associated with it, they still have to actually build a 40,000 capacity stadium (costing over €100m if PUC is anything to go by) plus a hell of a lot of car parking spaces. Madness

I agree with this wholeheartely its absolute madness,They should be spending that money on coaching and getting "weaker" counties up to a higher standard than a silly white elephant.

Re: stadia get Navan up to a similar standard to O'Moore park & refurbish small stadiums in Drogheda,Mullingar and Newbridge to comfortably host national league games.Early championship games & backdoor games could take place in their home venues while bigger championship games could take place in any number of larger Leinster venues.

The GAA really needs to take the bull by the horns and start playing big games out of Dublin,Let county boards bid to host a range of games such as
Leinster Semi's in football & hurling & Rd.4 qualifier games.

Even last years all ireland QF Kerry v Kildare could of been played in a number of smaller grounds i.e Tullamore,Portlaoise even Walsh Park would of been a far better occasion.

Dublin v Fermanagh,Mayo v Donegal & Tyrone v Monaghan were ideal games to take out of Croker with Clones or Breffini park well able to hold the demand for those games.

Supporters travel should come into the equation when fixing these games,The rd.4 games between Sligo & Tyrone & Galway v Donegal drew a staggering 25,000 people to HQ that day..The local businesses of Sligo,Carrick on Shannon or Enniskillen would of been well pleased with attendances like that in their towns.

Kerry v Mayo last year in Limerick was one of the great GAA occasions more of this is needed and with Casement and PUC to come on board its only a matter of time anyway

Boom__Boom

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/gaelic-grounds-now-a-burden-warns-limerick-secretary-mike-oriordan-370981.html

Article on the Gaelic Grounds being a burden on Limerick GAA. Wonder if anyone involved from the Cork County Board is taking any notice.

"The burden of the facility is becoming a financial issue for the board and even though the commercial activities have increased, it is still not enough to make it self-sufficient.”

Having explored the idea of concerts being held there and no real appetite from promoters to utilise the venue, we will now have to explore other areas of revenue to maintain the facility.

zetecescort

Boom__Boom wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/gaelic-grounds-now-a-burden-warns-limerick-secretary-mike-oriordan-370981.html

Article on the Gaelic Grounds being a burden on Limerick GAA. Wonder if anyone involved from the Cork County Board is taking any notice.

more importantly is there anybody from the Government/EU after reading it after listening to the ****e "business plan" put forward by the CCB to receive funding?

keane2097

You're trying to tell me One Direction won't be playing Pairc Ui Chaoimh or the Gaelic Grounds? I'm super duper shocked.

Boom__Boom

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/red-lights-flashing-for-cork-county-boards-finances-371343.html

Cork County Board chairman Ger Lane told yesterday’s Cork GAA convention that the “red lights were flashing” in terms of the board’s finances.

Lane told delegates that investment bonds which had now been cashed in by the board had “shielded the board for the last few years”.

The chairman commended the county secretary and treasurer on looking after those investments in terms of the “serious return” they had made, but added that those funds are now no longer there.

“It’s time to pull the reins in seriously,” said Lane.

“No business could operate on the losses we’d have made the last few years without those investments. The red lights are certainly flashing in terms of finance and the cisteoir (treasurer) has a huge task to turn that around in the next year or so.”

With that in mind, treasurer Pearse Murphy said: “With the clubs draw, we need every club in the county to be fully committed to it. For the sake of the finances of the board, the figure (participants) must get up to 20,000. There has been a good response from a number of clubs but we cannot emphasise the importance of the draw both for the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh and the running of our inter-county teams.

“Whatever clubs are doing fundraising, get this draw, which we have run for 24 years, on board.

“Next year we have the 25th anniversary of the draw and while there has been a drop, we have arrested that and we must work hard to stay up with the best.” Also on financial matters, the treasurer rejected suggestions that senior football championship games would be more financially viable in West Cork, as some speakers suggested, pointing to the income from 15 SFC games held in West Cork, and the revenue from the two county semi-finals held in Páirc Uí Rinn, as “practically on par”.

"Red lights are flashing" and “It’s time to pull the reins in seriously,” while ploughing on with the stadium project which is already 12 million over budget, and if the EU rules against them there will be an additional 15 million hole in financing.

In related news there was not one single question at the County Convention regarding the state of the Pairc Ui Chaoimh project.

Mind-boggling stuff.

Prop Joe

Boom__Boom wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/red-lights-flashing-for-cork-county-boards-finances-371343.html



"Red lights are flashing" and “It’s time to pull the reins in seriously,” while ploughing on with the stadium project which is already 12 million over budget, and if the EU rules against them there will be an additional 15 million hole in financing.

In related news there was not one single question at the County Convention regarding the state of the Pairc Ui Chaoimh project.

Mind-boggling stuff.

The Pairc Ui Chaoimh project is actually a very good idea just seems very bad value for money

CrabRevolution

Redeveloping Páirc Uí Chaoimh is a good idea alright.

Redeveloping it into a 50'000 seater behemoth at an eye watering cost, for maybe one big game a year is utterly ludicrous.

zetecescort

and to think selling a few raffle tickets is going to plug the gap?:mad:

hard to know what's worse, silence from delegates or journalists?

iDave

Finally some sense on Pairc M50

GAA presidential candidate and former Leinster Council chairman Martin Skelly has claimed neither Croke Park nor the provincial body should commit a cent to any proposed new stadium alongside the M50 motorway.


The possibility of a ground housing anything between 25-40,000 people being built along the country’s busiest stretch of road has been mooted on and off for over half-a-decade and the project now looks to be very much back on the cards.

Current Leinster chairman John Horan was widely quoted last week making the case for the project. Current GAA president Aogán Ó Fearghail has also spoken of the possibility while his predecessor Liam O’Neill was all for the concept 12 months ago.

Skelly has been here before.
Leinster chairman between 2011 and 2014, he inherited a strategic plan that incorporated an identical idea, but it was one that fell through largely due to a slump in gate receipts during the economic crash.

With income from games nosediving from €8m to €4.5m, there was no way a new venue could have been given the green light by the Leinster administration at the time.

Skelly opposed the idea anyway and was glad to see it skewered on his watch.

His thoughts haven’t changed since.

“Dublin could probably initiate a stadium of its own such is the funding available to them in the county and good luck to them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“What does (another Dublin) stadium do for Newbridge and Navan and Drogheda? It irritates me. I had nailed that one on the head.”

Under GAA rules, counties must generate one-third of the money required for any such venture themselves. The remainder is sourced externally with both Croke Park and the relevant provincial council habitually making a major dent in that.

Skelly’s preference at the time was for money to be directed towards grounds badly in need of attention around the capital and that they be refurbished to a “realistic size”, unlike too many other venues nationwide.

Plans had been in place to upgrade the grounds in Navan and Newbridge in the recent past, but both also fell victim to the economic downturn.

Skelly believes these stadia, and not an M50 project, should be the priority now and his opinions are founded on more than just finance.

Historian Paul Rouse wrote in these pages last week about the ethos of the community and the vitality that has always come with big inter-county games held in a county town. Skelly knows what that means better than most.

As Longford chairman he was centrally involved in the move to bring the Dublin footballers to Pearse Park in 2006 — for what is still their last provincial championship game played outside of HQ — and the memories of that sun kissed day remain vivid.

“I have a picture of the ground in the house, 16,000 people in a full Pearse Park. People in Longford still talk about it to this day. The buzz for weeks beforehand and weeks after it was incredible. It lifted the whole town and the whole county.”

Based in the rural parish of Newtowncashel in Longford, Skelly has seen the difficulties smaller communities have experienced in keeping local trade alive and vibrant and that has informed his distaste for a rootless stadium on the M50 where neutral counties would play.

“We are trying to keep stuff alive (around the country), which is one of the reasons why I would advocate a home and away relationship between counties. I was at the Longford and Kildare game in the summer. It was played there because Pearse Park was closed and it was dead as a dodo.”

The flipside of that was Longford’s meeting with Clare in Ennis a week earlier when Cusack Park crackled with electricity. Skelly accepts the occasion was enlivened by the fact it was the curtain-raiser for the Clare-Offaly hurling game, but the point stands.

It is hardly surprising then he is also against the Leinster Council’s recent decision to affix Dublin’s opening provincial football championship tie next summer in Nowlan Park rather than for Portlaoise in the event Laois beat Wicklow.

“Going to Kilkenny is crazy stuff. Longford was actually one of the few counties that opposed it. It is important the GAA looks out for the people that supports it and it would be a huge boost to the town, the pubs and hotels. It just brings a great bit of life to the place.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/martin-skelly-dont-fund-the-m50-stadium-372932.html

zetecescort

looks like the terraces are coming down now too. how much more will this add?

http://www.the42.ie/pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-photos-2523350-Dec2015/?utm_source=twitter_ self

Boom__Boom

zetecescort wrote: »

looks like the terraces are coming down now too. how much more will this add?

http://www.the42.ie/pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-photos-2523350-Dec2015/?utm_source=twitter_ self

Initially it was only the covered stand that was to be knocked.

Then the uncovered stand had to be knocked because they were found to be in such bad condition and now the terraces have to be knocked because they are in such bad condition.

The demolition stage of the process was supposed to be completed in 4 month, it's now over 8 months and counting.

The stand from the covered stand was supposed to be recycled as a roof for the old uncovered stand but that went by the wayside.

The contract with SISK (the main contractor) doesn't even include the one pitch "centre of excellence. mediocrity"

zetecescort

We'll hit the 100 million soon. Time to stop the project and put in planning again for a proper stadium now that the whole site has to be cleared.

God only knows how the funding of our teams will suffer in the next 40 years while the debts are paid off.

BonnieSituation

zetecescort wrote: »

We'll hit the 100 million soon. Time to stop the project and put in planning again for a proper stadium now that the whole site has to be cleared.

God only knows how the funding of our teams will suffer in the next 40 years while the debts are paid off.

Ah sure you can't admit you were wrong in this country.

Boom__Boom

Article in the Examiner about Pairc ui Chaoimh and the county council rolling over and letting Frank and the lads do what they want as regards the planning process.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gaa-and-council-under-fire-over-pairc-ui-chaoimh-demolition-374377.html

Also someone did a FOI request and got the business plan the Cork County Board had to cobble together when it was pointed out to them by the government that they were going spending €60 million plus on a new stadium but hadn't bothered with a business plan for the stadium.

I think my favourite bit is where whoever was responsible for this stuck "Strictly Private and Confidential/ Not for release under FOI" and thought that would have any effect at all.

Lots of stuff redacted, especially the figures.

One interesting bit is on Page 26 in a bit where the redacting didn't seem to work properly is the section "Venue Sponsorship and Advertising" The plan can't possibly have been to sell the naming rights all along? Another bit under the section Advertising, Branding and Media Platforms starts off with the line

The Stadium will have five product offering in this space

and lists one as

Stadium Sponsor - A sponsors name,associated with the Pairc Ui Chaoimh Stadium has the potential to enter the everyday vocabulary of media and supporters alike

Part of the projected cashflow is 2 concerts a year - this seems to be very optimistic given the recent comments by the Limerick County Board recently about concert promoters not being interested in GAA stadiums as concert venue. That's before you take into account the fact that the Springsteen concert in PUC in 2013 was a complete shambles and the changes in the law regarding concerts due to the Garth Brooks debacle.

The Centre of Excellence will include a new floodlit, maximum sized, All-Weather Pitch adjacent to the New Stadium. Players would have access to match day changing rooms, warm up rooms. The County Teams will use these facilities as required, but when vacant can be rented out to other GAA clubs and teams

I really can't see this contributing anything more than peanuts.

Also on page 27 there is a graph showing the projected cashflow for on the project where the total was €70m which says it was produced in February 2015 - I wonder if anyone will ask Frank and co when exactly they knew the project was going to be over-budget. If they were predicting it would cost €70million back in February before demolition had even started, what are they really predicting it will cost now after the array of problems and delay?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1N...ew?usp=sharing

Mehapoy

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Article in the Examiner about Pairc ui Chaoimh and the county council rolling over and letting Frank and the lads do what they want as regards the planning process.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gaa-and-council-under-fire-over-pairc-ui-chaoimh-demolition-374377.html

Also someone did a FOI request and got the business plan the Cork County Board had to cobble together when it was pointed out to them by the government that they were going spending €60 million plus on a new stadium but hadn't bothered with a business plan for the stadium.

I think my favourite bit is where whoever was responsible for this stuck "Strictly Private and Confidential/ Not for release under FOI" and thought that would have any effect at all.

Lots of stuff redacted, especially the figures.

One interesting bit is on Page 26 in a bit where the redacting didn't seem to work properly is the section "Venue Sponsorship and Advertising" The plan can't possibly have been to sell the naming rights all along? Another bit under the section Advertising, Branding and Media Platforms starts off with the line and lists one as

Part of the projected cashflow is 2 concerts a year - this seems to be very optimistic given the recent comments by the Limerick County Board recently about concert promoters not being interested in GAA stadiums as concert venue. That's before you take into account the fact that the Springsteen concert in PUC in 2013 was a complete shambles and the changes in the law regarding concerts due to the Garth Brooks debacle.



I really can't see this contributing anything more than peanuts.

Also on page 27 there is a graph showing the projected cashflow for on the project where the total was €70m which says it was produced in February 2015 - I wonder if anyone will ask Frank and co when exactly they knew the project was going to be over-budget. If they were predicting it would cost €70million back in February before demolition had even started, what are they really predicting it will cost now after the array of problems and delay?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1N...ew?usp=sharing

It seems like an absolute farce from the examiner, they've now demolished the whole stadium after getting planning permission to rebuild one stand and do up the others... Are they going to just rebuild those sections as they were? Surely if they have now cleared the site they should go for a full redesign?

Boom__Boom

The latest news on Pairc Ui Chaoimh is that the demolition stage is almost finished (only 5 months behind schedule) Still sticking to the June 2017 completion date.

Also the uncovered stand is now going to remain an uncovered stand (initially the plan was to reuse the old roof from the covered stand, but that was ruled out when they had a look at the roof and saw it was in terrible condition, then the plan was to build a stand but this has gone by the wayside now (due to lack of funds I'd imagine) The design of the uncovered stand is going to be adjusted so that a roof can be added later when there's cash (so in about 30-35 years I'd imagine)

namloc1980

So it'll be a covered stand, uncovered stand and two open terraces. What a mess it will be. One gigantic stand and the other three sides being open to the elements. And is it really going to be open for June 2017???

Boom__Boom

At the Cork County board meeting last night, almost an hour was spent extending sympathy to various individuals who had died which meant that report on the progress of the stadium and some other stuff was postponed until the next meeting on February 23.

Sounds like the very model of a well-run meeting.

If you made that up in a comedy people would call it unbelievable.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/cork-board-postpones-decision-on-controversial-fixtures-plan-378427.html

Boom__Boom

At the Cork County board meeting last night, almost an hour was spent extending sympathy to various individuals who had died which meant that report on the progress of the stadium and some other stuff was postponed until the next meeting on February 23.

Sounds like the very model of a well-run meeting.

If you made that up in a comedy people would call it unbelievable.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/cork-board-postpones-decision-on-controversial-fixtures-plan-378427.html

iDave

GAA county boards take note

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/plans-unveiled-for-20m-redevelopment-of-dalymount-park-34426330.html

20 million all seater. Roof on all 4 sides. Sensible capacity. Museum. Warm Up areas. Meeting rooms.

nice_guy80

Soccer grounds are small compared to GAA grounds.
rugby are even smaller

I think people forget that.

nice_guy80

Soccer grounds are small compared to GAA grounds.
rugby are even smaller

I think people forget that.

theoneeyedman

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-club-fined-2-000-for-allowing-jamie-carragher-soccer-school-on-premises-1.2523022

See that top GAA brass are trying to clamp down on misuses of GAA infrastructure. I guess it's easy enough to make an example of a small club on the Longford/Cavan border. Major PR boo-boo, if you see where Dromard club is and the facilities it has, it's a shame you kick them in the balls by slapping a 2k fine on them.

CrabRevolution

iDave wrote: »

GAA county boards take note

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/plans-unveiled-for-20m-redevelopment-of-dalymount-park-34426330.html

20 million all seater. Roof on all 4 sides. Sensible capacity. Museum. Warm Up areas. Meeting rooms.

GAA grounds are much bigger than soccer grounds, so the price would be a lot higher for a similar GAA ground.

Also, a €20'000'000 redevelopment for a ground is beyond the reach of just about any county in Ireland. The only reason Casement's development is so high is because of huge funds from the NI executive, and the only reason Páirc Uí Chaoimh has a €60M+ price tag is to stroke the gigantic egos they seem to have down there. No other county would ever approach such a number.

Dalymount is a terrible example to use.

munchkin_utd

theoneeyedman wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-club-fined-2-000-for-allowing-jamie-carragher-soccer-school-on-premises-1.2523022

See that top GAA brass are trying to clamp down on misuses of GAA infrastructure. I guess it's easy enough to make an example of a small club on the Longford/Cavan border. Major PR boo-boo, if you see where Dromard club is and the facilities it has, it's a shame you kick them in the balls by slapping a 2k fine on them.

well, they did the crime so they have to do the time.

If it looks like a GAA ground, and is ran like a GAA ground, and the deeds are held by the GAA, then it is a GAA ground, and EVERYONE knows that non GAA games are not to be played there.

If it is to be a community facility then the community council or other neutral holding body needs to be set up. If not, then its stupidity that someone collected money for it to be a soccer grounds and then gave the facility to the GAA.

If I collected a million euro for a church, and gave it to the muslims, I would not be surprised to find they had built a mosque and not be able to use the facility as a church!

Prop Joe

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well, they did the crime so they have to do the time.

If it looks like a GAA ground, and is ran like a GAA ground, and the deeds are held by the GAA, then it is a GAA ground, and EVERYONE knows that non GAA games are not to be played there.

If it is to be a community facility then the community council or other neutral holding body needs to be set up. If not, then its stupidity that someone collected money for it to be a soccer grounds and then gave the facility to the GAA.

If I collected a million euro for a church, and gave it to the muslims, I would not be surprised to find they had built a mosque and not be able to use the facility as a church!

I agree 1000%

If the club had requested permission from Croke Park to use the grounds for the summer camp it probably would of been granted as it is granted for loads of other non gaa summer camps through the country,The club went on a solo run and got rightly fined

salmocab

Just on the stadium size obviously it seems a bigger stadium needs to cost more but in actual fact in PUC it would make sense to build 2 proper stands with much cheaper to build terraces wrapping around each end so the stands don't have to be the length of the pitch. For arguments sake the stands could take 10,000 each with the terraces taking similar amounts. That way 20,000 could sit and watch almost every game played there but it could take 40 to 45 thousand if needs be for the one or two games a year that need more capacity. Pulling figures out of my hole here but Im sure everyone can see the point that it doesn't necessarily need to be a massive all seater soccer style stadium on a larger scale. Im sure this could be done for reasonable money.

Prop Joe

salmocab wrote: »

Just on the stadium size obviously it seems a bigger stadium needs to cost more but in actual fact in PUC it would make sense to build 2 proper stands with much cheaper to build terraces wrapping around each end so the stands don't have to be the length of the pitch. For arguments sake the stands could take 10,000 each with the terraces taking similar amounts. That way 20,000 could sit and watch almost every game played there but it could take 40 to 45 thousand if needs be for the one or two games a year that need more capacity. Pulling figures out of my hole here but Im sure everyone can see the point that it doesn't necessarily need to be a massive all seater soccer style stadium on a larger scale. Im sure this could be done for reasonable money.

That should of been the plan all along,2 large stands with hospitality and all that jazz with about 15k capacity in each & two terraces holding the guts of 8/9k each (With possible temporary seating for concerts etc..)

With funding coming from Croke Park for this and for Casement i think it would be a fantastic idea to "give" both these grounds an All Ireland QF each year

nice_guy80

Funding comes from the community through fundraising and the tax payer through grants.

People in communities also play soccer and rugbyand probably bought tickets to pay for these facilities. That is the way the world works.
There should be no impediment to other sports.

I've also a huge issue with school halls, funded by taxpayers not being available for hire by clubs and other organisations.

Prop Joe

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Funding comes from the community through fundraising and the tax payer through grants.

People in communities also play soccer and rugby and probably bought tickets to pay for these facilities. That is the way the world works.

Yeah im fairly outraged that i was refused permission to hold our annual youth club disco in the local courthouse which is maintained through tax payer money.

I also don't like the fact that i bought a raffle ticket for the local golf club and now they wont let the kids play rugby games there.

It's bloody outrageous Joe

nice_guy80

Prop Joe wrote: »

Yeah im fairly outraged that i was refused permission to hold our annual youth club disco in the local courthouse which is maintained through tax payer money.

I also don't like the fact that i bought a raffle ticket for the local golf club and now they wont let the kids play rugby games there.

It's bloody outrageous Joe

The GAA club in question hired out their Astro Turf pitch.
Communities have to get on with living and working together, not creating divisions and bigotry

Prop Joe

nice_guy80 wrote: »

The GAA club in question hired out their Astro Turf pitch.
Communities have to get on with living and working together, not creating divisions and bigotry

The soccer club that were running the camp to raise money could of used their own pitch in which they have 2,There is also a community all weather soccer pitch in which they have access to,The GAA club had superior facilities and they came knocking for them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry,The rules are there to protect local GAA clubs that come under pressure to share facilities with other sports who can't get off their arses and get their own.

Dromard could of applied for permission to host the event but they never bothered.

Until a rule is passed at congress the GAA HQ are obliged by its members (me & you) to enforce the rules.

Hibbeler

iDave wrote: »

GAA county boards take note

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/plans-unveiled-for-20m-redevelopment-of-dalymount-park-34426330.html

20 million all seater. Roof on all 4 sides. Sensible capacity. Museum. Warm Up areas. Meeting rooms.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Soccer grounds are small compared to GAA grounds.
rugby are even smaller

I think people forget that.

CrabRevolution wrote: »

GAA grounds are much bigger than soccer grounds, so the price would be a lot higher for a similar GAA ground.

Also, a €20'000'000 redevelopment for a ground is beyond the reach of just about any county in Ireland. The only reason Casement's development is so high is because of huge funds from the NI executive, and the only reason Páirc Uí Chaoimh has a €60M+ price tag is to stroke the gigantic egos they seem to have down there. No other county would ever approach such a number.

Dalymount is a terrible example to use.

Just on the point made above that soccer/rugby pitches tend to be smaller than GAA pitches, this absolutely does not mean that Dalymount park or Thomond park etc. is not a valid comparison to make. I would point out that the size of the rectangle in the middle isn't really a valid reason to discount them as comparisons.

It is a fact that say the Aviva Stadium/Thomond/Dalymount/etc have fundamentally the same function as Croke Park et al. and that is to house spectators while enjoying a game of some kind on a rectangle of grass in front of them. Plus all of the associated corporate, media etc functions that go with such events.

When it comes to the costs of building any building a number of considerations come into play. Everything from the size and function of the building to the cost of labour and materials amongst others.

Assuming that in a comparison between GAA and soccer stadia in Ireland we can say that the function and costs of labour and materials will be roughly comparable so the biggest variable is the size of the pitch. Therefore it is clear that comparisons between stadia of various codes is a very valid one to make.

I believe that the original point iDave wass trying to make bringing up the proposed Dalymount redevelopment is that on the face of it the FAI and Bohemians arguably appear to be getting more bang for their buck than any of the GAA county boards so far have been able to achieve. So if you went about building a GAA ground with a 20 million budget we should expect to see maybe two good standard covered stands for that price perhaps. Why is it that the Pairc ui Caomh development in Cork with a much higher budget appears to be total tosh in comparison?

salmocab

Hibbeler wrote: »

Just on the point made above that soccer/rugby pitches tend to be smaller than GAA pitches, this absolutely does not mean that Dalymount park or Thomond park etc. is not a valid comparison to make. I would point out that the size of the rectangle in the middle isn't really a valid reason to discount them as comparisons.

It is a fact that say the Aviva Stadium/Thomond/Dalymount/etc have fundamentally the same function as Croke Park et al. and that is to house spectators while enjoying a game of some kind on a rectangle of grass in front of them. Plus all of the associated corporate, media etc functions that go with such events.

When it comes to the costs of building any building a number of considerations come into play. Everything from the size and function of the building to the cost of labour and materials amongst others.

Assuming that in a comparison between GAA and soccer stadia in Ireland we can say that the function and costs of labour and materials will be roughly comparable so the biggest variable is the size of the pitch. Therefore it is clear that comparisons between stadia of various codes is a very valid one to make.

I believe that the original point iDave wass trying to make bringing up the proposed Dalymount redevelopment is that on the face of it the FAI and Bohemians arguably appear to be getting more bang for their buck than any of the GAA county boards so far have been able to achieve. So if you went about building a GAA ground with a 20 million budget we should expect to see maybe two good standard covered stands for that price perhaps. Why is it that the Pairc ui Caomh development in Cork with a much higher budget appears to be total tosh in comparison?

Fair points, although I think its Dublin City Council thats paying, neither Bohs or FAI could afford that.

nice_guy80

No ground outside Croke Park or PUC will spend near that amount.
It's not really a valid comparison

LeinsterDub

iDave wrote: »

GAA county boards take note

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/plans-unveiled-for-20m-redevelopment-of-dalymount-park-34426330.html

20 million all seater. Roof on all 4 sides. Sensible capacity. Museum. Warm Up areas. Meeting rooms.

20 million for 10k seems expensive

salmocab

LeinsterDub wrote: »

20 million for 10k seems expensive

The site is so tight it would drive up building costs

LeinsterDub

salmocab wrote: »

The site is so tight it would drive up building costs

Sell it and build on a green field site. Waste of money when you'd get 20 million or more for the site alone

zetecescort

Herr Murphy's underground bunker adds to the cost of Pairc Ui Chaoimh too