GAA Infastructure

CrabRevolution

The idea of every single Meath fan having to leave the county to watch a "Home" league/championship match just doesn't seem right to me.

I'd also imagine it would get very messy for fixtures, who has final say over what gets played there?

Do county finals get moved there or do we keep the old county grounds for club matches while letting them crumble to the ground?

randd1

Why don't the GAA just do up Tullamore to 30,000? Say what you want about that notion, but its a cracking venue as it is with good facilities, and the town does be buzzing with any type of decent crowd.

If the GAA went about it, they could do up the terrace side to a seated stand, which would hold about 10,000, and have two covered terrace ends about 5,000 each end. There's already one good stand in it already built, and the space is there for the building already, no need for buying land.

It would be fully covered stadium 30,000 stadium. And the reason I would pick Tullamore is because its in an area of Offaly which is generally both hurling and football so there would be some sort of a buzz in the town, and it has good roads going into it in general especially with the roads leading off the Galway and Cork/Limerick motorways.

Most of all, it would service basically every county in North Leinster/ possibly even Leinster as a while. Westmeath, Meath and Kildare are all neighbours, most of, though not all, of Meath, Kilkenny, Carlow, Wicklow and Longford are within 90 minutes drive of it and that's not a bad drive for a big match. The Galway/Dublin motorway would service Dublin. Its about the same distance to there from Wexford as it is to Dublin. Louth would probably draw the short straw, but then they could always have games played in Dublin.

And in the Leinster hurling championship, Galway are more than well served by Tullamore as neutral venue.

I've been up there plenty of times over the years following Kilkenny, and I've always liked it as a venue and as a town for a match buzz. No point in building a 25-30,000 stadium in Dublin from scratch when the raw materials are already in place for Leinster counties to have a perfectly good sized second stadium for the province.

threeball

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The idea of every single Meath fan having to leave the county to watch a "Home" league/championship match just doesn't seem right to me.

I'd also imagine it would get very messy for fixtures, who has final say over what gets played there?

Do county finals get moved there or do we keep the old county grounds for club matches while letting them crumble to the ground?

Meath and Kildare should build an identical ground to armaghs except with an even lower capacity. 12k would be perfect. €4million and a revamped high quality pitch and counties like this would be set for the next 20yrs. Same should go for Clare, Westmeath and other counties planning renovating or building county grounds.

threeball

randd1 wrote: »

Why don't the GAA just do up Tullamore to 30,000? Say what you want about that notion, but its a cracking venue as it is with good facilities, and the town does be buzzing with any type of decent crowd.

If the GAA went about it, they could do up the terrace side to a seated stand, which would hold about 10,000, and have two covered terrace ends about 5,000 each end. There's already one good stand in it already built, and the space is there for the building already, no need for buying land.

It would be fully covered stadium 30,000 stadium. And the reason I would pick Tullamore is because its in an area of Offaly which is generally both hurling and football so there would be some sort of a buzz in the town, and it has good roads going into it in general especially with the roads leading off the Galway and Cork/Limerick motorways.

Most of all, it would service basically every county in North Leinster/ possibly even Leinster as a while. Westmeath, Meath and Kildare are all neighbours, most of, though not all, of Meath, Kilkenny, Carlow, Wicklow and Longford are within 90 minutes drive of it and that's not a bad drive for a big match. The Galway/Dublin motorway would service Dublin. Its about the same distance to there from Wexford as it is to Dublin. Louth would probably draw the short straw, but then they could always have games played in Dublin.

And in the Leinster hurling championship, Galway are more than well served by Tullamore as neutral venue.

I've been up there plenty of times over the years following Kilkenny, and I've always liked it as a venue and as a town for a match buzz. No point in building a 25-30,000 stadium in Dublin from scratch when the raw materials are already in place for Leinster counties to have a perfectly good sized second stadium for the province.

This is kind of along the mini crokers idea I proposed a while back. Mid sized well appointed grounds for high attendence championship games and small quality smaller county grounds to cover all other games both league and championship.
I,d like to see Tullamore 30,000, Thurles 45,000, Claremorris 30,000 and Clones 30,000 as really high quality grounds for big championship games up to all ireland quarter finals. (Omagh would actually be logistically better than Clones but revenue should be kept in the republic). All other grounds should be along the lines of armaghs or smaller depending on requirements.

salmocab

randd1 wrote: »

Why don't the GAA just do up Tullamore to 30,000? Say what you want about that notion, but its a cracking venue as it is with good facilities, and the town does be buzzing with any type of decent crowd.

If the GAA went about it, they could do up the terrace side to a seated stand, which would hold about 10,000, and have two covered terrace ends about 5,000 each end. There's already one good stand in it already built, and the space is there for the building already, no need for buying land.

It would be fully covered stadium 30,000 stadium. And the reason I would pick Tullamore is because its in an area of Offaly which is generally both hurling and football so there would be some sort of a buzz in the town, and it has good roads going into it in general especially with the roads leading off the Galway and Cork/Limerick motorways.

Most of all, it would service basically every county in North Leinster/ possibly even Leinster as a while. Westmeath, Meath and Kildare are all neighbours, most of, though not all, of Meath, Kilkenny, Carlow, Wicklow and Longford are within 90 minutes drive of it and that's not a bad drive for a big match. The Galway/Dublin motorway would service Dublin. Its about the same distance to there from Wexford as it is to Dublin. Louth would probably draw the short straw, but then they could always have games played in Dublin.

And in the Leinster hurling championship, Galway are more than well served by Tullamore as neutral venue.

I've been up there plenty of times over the years following Kilkenny, and I've always liked it as a venue and as a town for a match buzz. No point in building a 25-30,000 stadium in Dublin from scratch when the raw materials are already in place for Leinster counties to have a perfectly good sized second stadium for the province.

your probably right but to be fair the 25000 stadium proposed is by the Dublin county board.

threeball

salmocab wrote: »

your probably right but to be fair the 25000 stadium proposed is by the Dublin county board.

I don't think there's any doubt that dublin need a county ground of that size. Their league games would be electric in a stadium of that size as would smaller championship games

salmocab

threeball wrote: »

I don't think there's any doubt that dublin need a county ground of that size. Their league games would be electric in a stadium of that size as would smaller championship games

I agree, although I don't think stadiums out of town lend much to atmosphere.

threeball

salmocab wrote: »

I agree, although I don't think stadiums out of town lend much to atmosphere.

I'm with you there but donnycarney is a bit of a damp squib as is and croker is just too big for all but dublin v the ai champs when it comes to league

LeoB

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the only thing might be that they could finance it by offloading Parnell park for residental re-development seeing as it'd likely be surplus to requirements.

theres no mention of it but something like that would make sense seeing as they'd be playing very few high profile games in Parnell park if their second stadium becomes a 25,000 capacity southside stadium complimented by Croke park on the northside.

in my eyes whats needed is a joint effort between Kildare and Dublin (if not meath too) for a proper state of the art 25,000 seater between them - but that doesnt seem to be on the cards.

Im inclined to agree with you re sharing grounds. Every county feels they need to have a state of the art ground when they clearly dont. Huge money is being put into grounds that will never see a capacity crowd unless they have a big championship match. With the developments Meath and Louth have undertaken at Darver and outside Navan with lots of pitchs and proper facilities which I feel is the way to go maybe they could look at sharing a ground around Duleek/ Slane or Donore.

What it could save county boards would hugely beneficial as they could invest properly in coaching and playing facilities/changing rooms at club grounds. What would be wrong with say Westmeath or Laois sharing a ground? It does not have to be in Mullingar or portlaoise but in a Border town. Could not see it working in Cork/Kerry/ Tipp as these have massive geographical spread like Galway and Mayo. But Roscommon/Leitrim, Louth Meath, Wexford Wicklow or Meath Kildare.If you look at somewhere like Clonee Dublin and Meath could share a ground but I cant see it happening. Dublin could fill a 25,000 capacity ground for a few league games and it could get rid of Parnell park.

While it has been mentioned playing a county final outside of one's home county would not sit right what is the attendance at county finals around the country? Some get as low as 1,500 to 2,500. Majority get between 3,500 and 7-8,000 with the exceptions being Dublin 10,000, Cork and Tipp get massive crowds for hurling finals 15,000-20,000 and Kerry for the football get very big crowds so why are we building so many big grounds. Politics. And it is costing many counties way to much and they cant invest the money where its needed.

The Athletic grounds should be used as a Template for other counties to follow.

CrabRevolution

LeoB wrote: »

Im inclined to agree with you re sharing grounds. Every county feels they need to have a state of the art ground when they clearly dont. Huge money is being put into grounds that will never see a capacity crowd unless they have a big championship match. With the developments Meath and Louth have undertaken at Darver and outside Navan with lots of pitchs and proper facilities which I feel is the way to go maybe they could look at sharing a ground around Duleek/ Slane or Donore.

What it could save county boards would hugely beneficial as they could invest properly in coaching and playing facilities/changing rooms at club grounds. What would be wrong with say Westmeath or Laois sharing a ground? It does not have to be in Mullingar or portlaoise but in a Border town. Could not see it working in Cork/Kerry/ Tipp as these have massive geographical spread like Galway and Mayo. But Roscommon/Leitrim, Louth Meath, Wexford Wicklow or Meath Kildare.If you look at somewhere like Clonee Dublin and Meath could share a ground but I cant see it happening. Dublin could fill a 25,000 capacity ground for a few league games and it could get rid of Parnell park.

While it has been mentioned playing a county final outside of one's home county would not sit right what is the attendance at county finals around the country? Some get as low as 1,500 to 2,500. Majority get between 3,500 and 7-8,000 with the exceptions being Dublin 10,000, Cork and Tipp get massive crowds for hurling finals 15,000-20,000 and Kerry for the football get very big crowds so why are we building so many big grounds. Politics. And it is costing many counties way to much and they cant invest the money where its needed.

The Athletic grounds should be used as a Template for other counties to follow.

You'd have trouble finding the Westmeath/Laois border, never mind building anything on it .

Pete_Cavan

Building stadiums in a village just because it is on the border between two counties is not a good idea. It is very unlikely that such a village will have the necessary road connections, availability of parking or the shops/bars/restaurants to service a crowd of 10,000 or more. The last thing the GAA should be doing is building stadiums on greenfields and surrounding them by thousands of parking spaces as it would kill any kind of match day atmosphere. And this in the name of saving money, buying several acres of land, negotiating our arduous planning system (and no doubt plenty of objections and protests), and building a stadium and new pitch from scratch is not cheap. In reality, a long term plan for improvements and redevelopment of existing grounds would be cheaper and make attending matches a more enjoyable experience.

The GAA already owns good sized, well located sites in the main town in most counties, the quality of the stadium just has to be improved. The difference between O'Connor Park in Tullamore or Athletics Ground in Armagh, which everyone is raving about, and many county grounds is the main stand. Pairc Tailteann, for example, needs a new main stand and then it will be a good 12-15k stadium. The new stand would cost around €5m, building a new stadium around Slane would cost a lot more than that.

threeball

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The new stand would cost around €5m, building a new stadium around Slane would cost a lot more than that.

I don't get how building a stand can cost €5m when armagh built a whole stadium for that. A stand is precast concrete, a roof,seats and lights. Entire office buildings with expensive M&E are built for €5m. The Gaa has been getting absolutely screwed on costs when it comes to stadiums. Just at small stadiums in the uk and elsewhere to see what they are building for €15m with corporate hospitality and all the bells and whistles.

I agree with the rest of your point btw.

LeoB

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You'd have trouble finding the Westmeath/Laois border, never mind building anything on it .

Very good. Think you get my idea. Think I should have Longford Westmeath.

I was in Cusack Park Mullingar on Saturday and it is a grand ground, or was 20years ago. There is no chance of developing it as there is simply no space and limited parking around it. Yet because of it location along M4 and close to M.6 Mullingar is a great location.

Carlow would also be a good location with I.T there already a sports campus of sorts and let Carlow C.L.G. invest in coaching and development

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Building stadiums in a village just because it is on the border between two counties is not a good idea. It is very unlikely that such a village will have the necessary road connections, availability of parking or the shops/bars/restaurants to service a crowd of 10,000 or more. The last thing the GAA should be doing is building stadiums on greenfields and surrounding them by thousands of parking spaces as it would kill any kind of match day atmosphere. And this in the name of saving money, buying several acres of land, negotiating our arduous planning system (and no doubt plenty of objections and protests), and building a stadium and new pitch from scratch is not cheap. In reality, a long term plan for improvements and redevelopment of existing grounds would be cheaper and make attending matches a more enjoyable experience.

The GAA already owns good sized, well located sites in the main town in most counties, the quality of the stadium just has to be improved. The difference between O'Connor Park in Tullamore or Athletics Ground in Armagh, which everyone is raving about, and many county grounds is the main stand. Pairc Tailteann, for example, needs a new main stand and then it will be a good 12-15k stadium. The new stand would cost around €5m, building a new stadium around Slane would cost a lot more than that.

I wouldnt put a phone box into Slane;)

If Meath do develop Pairc Tailteann I would hope they build some office space that can be rented out to small companies. I saw a small ground in Italy a few years ago and it had an Accountancy firm, a quick fit tyre place, all revenue for the club.

Was not talking about a greenfield site as such in a remote village. Look at towns like Portarlington with a rail connection, a big enough town or select either Portlaoise or Tullamore with decent secondary club grounds for staging big club games.

I also think we are screwed when it comes to cost of G.A.A developments compared to grounds in UK that have been developed. Even taking into account we need far more space with our bigger pitchs but look at the Aviva and the costs there.
That said we are possibly the most over regulated country in Europe, jobs for the boys like!!

Pete_Cavan

The Casement redevelopment has turned into a right fiasco and I would be surprised if this isnt the final nail in the coffin;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33464797

Stadium safety expert Paul Scott has made new claims about pressure allegedly put on him behind the scenes over the Casement Park project.

He told a Stormont committee that Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) official Ryan Feeney told him he could persuade senior police officers to drop concerns on safety at the new stadium.
Mr Feeney is a member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

Meanwhile, the folks in Monaghan seem to be trying to protect Clones as an (the) Ulster Final venue;

http://www.northernsound.ie/news/plans-in-place-for-the-redevelopment-of-st-tiernachs-park/

I would hope the works to St. Tiernachs Park is just replacement of the bench seats with proper stadium seats and new facilities built on the back of the existing main stand, possibly with a new roof. Knocking down and rebuilding the main stand would be too expensive imo.

babybuilder

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Casement redevelopment has turned into a right fiasco and I would be surprised if this isnt the final nail in the coffin;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-33464797



Meanwhile, the folks in Monaghan seem to be trying to protect Clones as an (the) Ulster Final venue;

http://www.northernsound.ie/news/plans-in-place-for-the-redevelopment-of-st-tiernachs-park/

I would hope the works to St. Tiernachs Park is just replacement of the bench seats with proper stadium seats and new facilities built on the back of the existing main stand, possibly with a new roof. Knocking down and rebuilding the main stand would be too expensive imo.

Going to the Ulster Final tomorrow. Season ticket holder and no doubt will get soaked. If clones is to continue as the Ulster final venue then they need to put a roof over the hill. Modernise four provincial stadia and ensure that there is at least half of the seating covered

zetecescort

EU investigating 30 million grant for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/shock-as-30m-pirc-u-chaoimh-grant-facing-eu-probe-34158532.html

weasel your way out of this Frankie boy!

threeball

zetecescort wrote: »

EU investigating 30 million grant for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/shock-as-30m-pirc-u-chaoimh-grant-facing-eu-probe-34158532.html

weasel your way out of this Frankie boy!

Good I hope it gets squashed and Cork end up with a sensible sized ground round the 15-20k mark.

Boom__Boom

Statement from Cork County Board

The Páirc Uí Chaoimh stadium re-development project meets all the conditions for State funding under the Public Spending Code.

The Board has been made aware of a process that has to be undertaken by Government with the EU with regard to State aid.

The Board and the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport are working closely together and the Board anticipates a speedy and successful conclusion to the process.

http://gaacork.ie/news/368070/Pairc_Ui_Chaoimh_Project_Statement_from_Cork_GAA_Board

The statement issued by Cork GAA.

I googled the Public Spending Code and that's an Irish government process and looks to be entirely separate to the EU Issue mentioned in the Independent report. This seems to relate to the previous issue where some of the Irish civil service wouldn't sign off on paying the money because of the lack of a business plan.

The EU issue sounds like it is a far more difficult and tricky kettle of fish to ensuring that some Irish civil servant signs off on giving money to the GAA.

Looks like a very carefully worded statement. The first line says everything is grand in relation to a different issue entirely. The second sentence makes it sound like the government have to fill out some forms to take care of some bureaucracy with the EU. The third sentence says that they expect
everything to be sorted quickly and successfully (you'd love to hear someone ask the board why exactly they think this or is it a case of just crossing their fingers and hoping for the best) and whatever about the odds of things being resolved successfully, the odds of the EU sorting out something of this sort quickly are absolutely tiny I'd imagine.

The EU is a different animal to anything that the Cork County Board have had to do any dealings with - there is a world of difference between dealing with the Irish civil services/bodies (where a serious chunk of the folk would have strong positive feelings towards the GAA) and dealing with some French/German bureaucrats.

This is just another one in the long list of issues in relation to this project.

In terms of costs, the stadium roof which was to be-used, but was found to be in too poor a condition, while the terraces and some stands which were supposed to be left standing were found to be in too bad a condition too and had to be knocked. That's only some of the stuff that has added extra cost to the budget. The County Board Draw has gotten a terrible response from the clubs/club members which means the €10m contribution from clubs to the budget looks to be utter pie in the sky.

The fact that the special meetings scheduled to bring the county board delegates up-to-speed on the status of the project were cancelled at short notice twice recently plus the rumours about some of the County Board executive quitting a few weeks is surely a massive red flag. That's before you go near the awful location of the stadium and the farce that is the centre of excellenceuselessness. There's no way Frank is getting out of this alive.

On the positive side at least the County Board statement didn't blame the weather in this statement - I'd imagine they're saving that for a while down the road when they are months/years behind schedule and will try and blame the fact that it rained in Ireland at some point during construction for the delay.

DragonKhan

threeball wrote: »

Good I hope it gets squashed and Cork end up with a sensible sized ground round the 15-20k mark.

So you want the biggest County in Munster to have one of the smallest grounds. A ground so small that they would never again be able to host any Munster finals again and would leave people struggling for tickets for county Hurling finals?

blue note

This isn't a particularly good development for the GAA. Lots of people refer to the organisation as the grab all association and in this instance it's quite accurate. To the tune of €30m. I haven't heard any reasonable justification for the stadium. Some have reminded us that it's costing the GAA nothing - it's state funding and Cork money. Cork can do what they like with their own money, but it's hard to justify taking €30m in tax payer money. The probably most common argument is that they should have it because it's Cork. But as a tax payer I'd rather see €30m go into something that will actually benefit people rather than a few egos.

But the supporters the organisation have in government to help secure funding might find things a little more difficult after this. It's bad press for us nationally and it's a headache no-one needs. It will also be a stick to beat us with for a while. Because at the end of the day, there's an element of us trying to swindle this money from the government coffers for something that doesn't deserve it. It also doesn't seem like reasonable value actually.

Boom__Boom

DragonKhan wrote: »

So you want the biggest County in Munster to have one of the smallest grounds. A ground so small that they would never again be able to host any Munster finals again and would leave people struggling for tickets for county Hurling finals?

Look at the attendances at the last few Cork county finals and there is no danger of anyone in Cork struggling to get county final tickets any time soon.

The geographic size of the county isn't really all that relevant to the size of the stadium - attendance at games is the key factor.

blue note

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Look at the attendances at the last few Cork county finals and there is no danger of anyone in Cork struggling to get county final tickets any time soon.

The geographic size of the county isn't really all that relevant to the size of the stadium - attendance at games is the key factor.

Pairc ui rinn would fit the county finals and league matches fine in reality. You'd get a better atmosphere in there too. Munster championship is where you actually could occasionally do with a stadium of its size, and munster already has more than it needs. We don't need a stadium like that in every county, certainly not for €70m.

Then there are the concerts but the GAA shouldn't be worrying about them basically.

nice_guy80

How much did Thomand Park get?

blue note

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How much did Thomand Park get?

A quick Google search tells me it received €3m in funding and the total build was about €40m. Some difference in value for money to the taxpayer there.

Figsy32

blue note wrote: »

Pairc ui rinn would fit the county finals and league matches fine in reality. You'd get a better atmosphere in there too. Munster championship is where you actually could occasionally do with a stadium of its size, and munster already has more than it needs. We don't need a stadium like that in every county, certainly not for €70m.

Then there are the concerts but the GAA shouldn't be worrying about them basically.

Plenty room and far better atmosphere in Pairc Ui Rinn for the county finals this year. The only time we would need anything bigger than Pairc Ui Rinn is Kerry in football championship or a Munster hurling championship game. Spending such an obscene amounts a money for maybe 2 games a year on average is crazy in my view.

blue note

Figsy32 wrote: »

Plenty room and far better atmosphere in Pairc Ui Rinn for the county finals this year. The only time we would need anything bigger than Pairc Ui Rinn is Kerry in football championship or a Munster hurling championship game. Spending such an obscene amounts a money for maybe 2 games a year on average is crazy in my view.

Especially when those games could be played in the stadia in Kerry / Limerick / Tipp anyway. Even if it's built and it gets a couple of games a year it just means other white elephants will be underused even more. It sounds like a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. At the expense of the taxpayer and the clubs in cork.

ciarriaithuaidh

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How much did Thomand Park get?

Thomond park redevelopment got €3m I seem to recall, from a total cost of €40m. Munster Rugby also received around €1m for the Musgrave park redevelopment in Cork.

A rational human being from outside Ireland would point out the stupidity of having a 26k and 44k stadium a mile apart in a city of 90,000 poulation (Limerick) along with a 10k capacity stadium a mile away from a new 45k capacity stadium costing an exorbitant amount (Cork)..but of course none of that really matters.

nice_guy80

Plus, didn't they turn the Thomand Park pitch around, or something?

When you consider Southampton built a 32,000 seater stadium for £32 million

The Lost Sheep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Plus, didn't they turn the Thomand Park pitch around, or something?

When you consider Southampton built a 32,000 seater stadium for £32 million

Its thomond.......
Pitch wasn't turned in Thomond but was turned around in Lansdowne Road for its redevelopment

J Cheever Loophole

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

A rational human being from outside Ireland would point out the stupidity of having a 26k and 44k stadium a mile apart in a city of 90,000 poulation (Limerick) along with a 10k capacity stadium a mile away from a new 45k capacity stadium costing an exorbitant amount (Cork)..but of course none of that really matters.

You're right of course. This situation always reminded me of many third world countries looking to have modern air forces, not because there was any real need, but because many of the neighbours had one.

The only rational explanation to be offered in this instance might be the intention to put in a bid for the 2023 Rugby Union World Cup?

homerjay2005

im personally 100% behind the PUC development. Cork, as our second biggest City needs a top class stadium, i cant see why anybody would think its a bad idea, its only money and id rather it was spend on having a ground that will be around for decades as opposed to being spend on some byepass of a meaningless town in Cork or Limerick or wasted on some other brainless project that will have no benefit to sport in this country.

if we want to be getting Rugby World Cups, Youth football euros/world cups etc etc we need to have a good geographical stadiums and this is one of them. i cant wait for it to be finished and looking forward to a Munster final there in the near future.

those complaining about cities with multiple stadiums, you should take trips to other cities around Europe and you will see the standard of facilities in these countries - countries who have only 1 or 2 main sports there. we are supposedly a top-tier global economic country yet our sporting infrastructure is absolutely appalling.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Its thomond.......
Pitch wasn't turned in Thomond but was turned around in Lansdowne Road for its redevelopment

wasn't touched in lansdown either, the pitch still runs parallel to the DART line.

blue note

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork, as our second biggest City needs a top class stadium

For what? A tiny number of games that can already be played elsewhere?

homerjay2005

blue note wrote: »

For what? A tiny number of games that can already be played elsewhere?

define elsewhere?

why should a cork team have to play their big home games in other counties?

blue note

homerjay2005 wrote: »

define elsewhere?

why should a cork team have to play their big home games in other counties?

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

homerjay2005

blue note wrote: »

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

munchkin_utd

the problem simply is the lack of regular fixtures and theres no sign of that changing any time soon.
And even if it did, would you need 50,000 capacity for a round robin munster hurling game or some sort of last 16 in the football?

blue note

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

I do realise a lot of the money won't go to the gaa. And it might go to roads or hospitals or a university or something instead. I'd much rather see that than it go on this stadium.

I still haven't seen a reason Cork or the gaa needs this stadium.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you do realise about 60%+ of that €70m is funded - it wouldnt go into a club or a coach, it would be put into building some needless road outside charleville or charlestown.

Kerry raised about €6m for a new training facility this year, that money was raised primarily for this development and nothing else - not one cent goes into club or coaches or the teams themselves. i cant imagine many people supporting the fundraising drive if it was for putting money into kilgarvin hurling or paying for 3 new coaches for the next 5 years. sames goes for Cork - they have this money raised due to the scope of the project, you cant just say "they have X amount of money for this, it should be spent on clubs and coaches" as it just doesnt work like that. the government and central council already have various schemes in place for that exact need.

Cork needs this stadium, everybody should get behind it.

It's absolutely laughable that you can describe an infrastructure project as 'needless' and yet you think this white elephant that is literally needless is a great idea.

There will literally be zero occasions per year when this stupid stadium in its terrible location will be full, but spending €60M on infrastructure is needless. Man alive.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

It's absolutely laughable that you can describe an infrastructure project as 'needless' and yet you think this white elephant that is literally needless is a great idea.

There will literally be zero occasions per year when this stupid stadium in its terrible location will be full, but spending €60M on infrastructure is needless. Man alive.

so youd rather it was spent on a byepass of some random town in north munster instead of developing into a top class stadium?

the decision was made to develop it years ago, the stadium is knocked to the ground and millions already have been spent. not sure what else can be done now, Cork needs a big stadium.

blue note

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork needs a big stadium.

FOR WHAT!!!???

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so youd rather it was spent on a byepass of some random town in north munster instead of developing into a top class stadium?

Yes! Of course I would! The country is absolutely crying out for infrastructure, the second city whose vanity you're so worried about is connected to the third city by an embarrassment of a route for a start.

That's before we focus on why it is you think the only options that ever existed for this money were Pairc Ui Chaoimh or a Charleville bypass.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

the decision was made to develop it years ago, the stadium is knocked to the ground and millions already have been spent. not sure what else can be done now

TBH if it was up to me they would sell the land and use the perfectly adequate stadiums they already have, or alternatively at the very least revise their plans dramatically to build a(nother) stadium to match the level of attendance they will ever get.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Cork needs a big stadium.

It doesn't, even a small bit. Even if we believe it does it is absolutely disgusting to spend €60M on one.

Mal-Adjusted

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition. What I don't understand is why the only consideration always seems to be capacity. I would much prefer a modern, covered stadium that was built around realistic expectations rather than aspiration ones.

ciarriaithuaidh

blue note wrote: »

Thurles, Limerick, Killarney. And for the same reason that any other county has to play their games elsewhere. Because that's where the stadium is and there isn't any justification for spending a massive amount of money on something that will be used once, maybe twice a year (and will lead to another of our stadia being used once or twice a year less).

€70m is an awful lot of money. How many hurling walls and coaches and all weather pitches and whatever else that money could pay for. If it was my county spending money like that I'd be furious.

It's a fair point. Yes, there needs to be a decent stadium in Cork, but this project is overblown and the "centre of excellence" is a box-ticking sham of an exercise.
Ironic that this is Cork aswell, which for the biggest county geographically has a tiny number of Games Develoment officers, 5 or so i believe. That and being a dual county on top of things. One could easily conclude that Cork GAA have their priorities in the wrong order.

homerjay2005

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition.

and that is up to each county to upgrade them. slowly but surely this process is getting there however - theres multiple county boards who have developed their stadiums in recent years and theres more planned - Antrim, Cork etc etc.

ArmaniJeanss

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

A lot (if not most) county grounds need to be redeveloped. Many are in appalling condition. What I don't understand is why the only consideration always seems to be capacity. I would much prefer a modern, covered stadium that was built around realistic expectations rather than aspiration ones.

Problem is the fixture allocation people who choose the venues based on expected number of people who want to see the game.
This means all counties err on the side of making the capacity as big as possible as it maximises your chances of hosting games.

It would need a sea change at all levels though to accept that if 30K tickets could be sold that it's still perfectly OK to have it in a modern comfy 25K stadium rather than a squished 40K stadium.

Pete_Cavan

I think the capacity here is a red herring. 24k of the capacity of the new stadium will be from the existing terraces behind the goals. The stands on either side needed to be knocked and rebuilt for basic comfort and safety reasons anyway. Even building stands like the main stand in O’Connor Park (good quality stand but nothing spectacular) on each side will add 14-16k to the capacity. That brings it up to around the 40k mark and that is just basic necessary works which the stadium needs. Sure costs can be greatly reduced (should be able to build two stands like that in Tullamore plus pitch works, etc. for €20m) but reducing the capacity doesn’t really have any benefits.

If the available budget is cut, they should reduce the size of the proposed main stand. Looking at the plans, most of the cost is in the main stand which is a big structure and has a very large roof. Omitting the upper tier would mean a less complicated structure and smaller roof which would save a huge amount of money but would probably only reduce capacity by at most 5k.

Boom__Boom

Latest I've heard is that PUC project is at the very least €10m-€13m over budget - as that's what the rumoured price of the main contract is over the supposed budget of €67m . This main contract doesn't include the costs for a whole pile of other costs such as demolition costs, new roof for the stand, fees for architects, surveryors, solicitors, floodlights, overruns/cost of delays and a whole host of others. According to experienced people in the construction industry the total final cost won't be that far off €100m.

Apart from the cost side of things there are big issues elsewhere. One is the dismal response to the county draw. Also talks with a sponsor are not supposed to be going well and they look very unlikely to extend the deal. Don't be surprised if the new Cork GAA jersey isn't available by Christmas.

keane2097

A criminal waste of money

Mal-Adjusted

Well, so far the best thing to come from the PuC clusterf*%k is that my club managed to get a rake of the old seats for a pittance. Green and White to match the jersey too!

shockframe

The plans for the puc were unrealistic to begin with.

40,000/45,000 or close to it might have been the norm 20 years ago but with the back door in place provincial crowds are unlikely to be sellouts anymore.Even the 2014 final there was 36,000 or so there. In a knockout game that would have been bigger but the days of munster providing the drama it once did are over.The football games against Kerry since 2001 have barely been half full. Even the recent club finals compared to its 70s heyday were well down in attendances. A stadium with 35,000 is adequate enough to me as Cork not only will get 1 or 2 games at max per year it isn’t central enough to warrant a qualifier or quarter final type game.

Talk of gigs is also fancy. It’s not as if Cork is short of music venues either. Acts like the Wild Beasts, Gary Numan and the Waterboys have all played the opera house in the last month or so.Hassle with promoters over the Springsteen gig in 2013 I believe. Anyways can you imagine arguing the merits of Kendrick Lamar or Vampire Weekend to the Cork County board.

Theres no doubt that PUC could do with a facelift but the current state of both codes looks disastrous. If the county stays in its current slump crowds will stay down. I was in a few places in Cork city during the summer and I couldn’t believe that there wasn’t one Cork flag flying anywhere.Supposedly it’s the same in the big towns like Ballincollig and Carrigaline. Compare that to the last decade (throw in 2010 at a push) when they were last successful-no shortage of colour then.If the teams are in mediocrity building a stadium won’t make any difference.

There seems to be this thinking of 'build it and they will come'. Nowadays people have every sport they could think of at the touch of a button not to mention Netflix or Spotify.The GAA is still important but there is a world of choice out there. Cork GAA is in a terrible state. People will seek out alternatives if its not run right.

I’d be in favour of Cork getting the ground up to a decent standard because it’s an excellent spot for a match and a few pints after but the way the thing has been proposed and handled is clearly not the way forward.