Will pellet guns ever be made license-free in Ireland

recipio

Extremataz, you have hit the nail on the head. If you read the guys on www.airgunbbs.com most of them modify their guns to some extent. Some even collect them for the pleasure of owning them ( heavens forbid).
They have no 80 euro issues as they dont have to justify their purchases to big brother.
The thing is, how do we go about changing a bad law !

extremetaz

Sparks wrote: »

I guess when you're looking at up to €3.5k for the high end of ISSF air rifles, €80 every 3 years doesn't seem like such a cost...

( €3.5k buys you a fully spec'd Walther LG400 in case you were wondering: )

Oh I'm aware alright Sparks Couldn't justify that much hardware at my level though so I'm gonna stick with the lower end for now (hence the Styer).

And you're quite correct in the case of a single rifle, €80 is fine every three years, no argument.

I was more refering to the €80 per ticket situation - meaning that even if you were able to form anything resembling a decent collection (and even if you spaced the purchases economically) a line out of 6 pieces will set you back €160 per year, add one more and you've got every third year at €240.... and so on.

So, restricting the argument to air only, suppose I want an Olympic air (say your Walther there), an FT rifle (say a HW100), a air rat-rifle (maybe a HW90 in .22), perhaps a .25 for better effect on bunnies, and maybe a few curiosities such as a Benjamin Rogue (.357), then that €80 starts to stack up pretty quickly (and again, that's assuming I can even get tickets for more than my chosen 3).

Furthermore, under the UK system then the only rifle from the above that necessarily requires registration is the Rogue.

extremetaz

As to getting a bad law changed - Sparks there knows far more about all that stuff than I would ever care to (..and I think perhaps more than he would ever care to either ).

Sparks

extremetaz wrote: »

So, restricting the argument to air only, suppose I want an Olympic air (say your Walther there)

Not my Walther, I shoot with something worth quite a bit less
The Walther isn't even my if-my-rifle-broke-today-this-is-what-I'd-buy-tomorrow rifle (that'd be the Steyr LG110).

that €80 starts to stack up pretty quickly

Yeah, that's one of the reasons we always wanted a one-man-one-licence system.

No arguing about it, our current system is a bad joke.

Sparks

extremetaz wrote: »

(..and I think perhaps more than he would ever care to either ).

Amen to that...

triggermortis

Hi,

I was just reading through this thread and it has highlighted something I need to do. I'm from the UK and have been here 15 years or so now and have owned a .22 air rifle for many years, but it has only been here for a short while. I was unaware I needed any sort of licence or safe for it until 10 minutes ago! I have no pellets for it and haven't used it in years, but now I've recently moved to the country, I might start to use it - once I get the legality of it sorted out!
The question is, how do I go about this? Do I just go into the local Garda station and get some forms? Will they want to know where it has come from? ( I bought it in 1984!!) Any other things they may ask?
Sorry if I'm high-jacking someones thread, this is all news to me.

Sparks

All the details for how to apply for a licence are in the big red flashing announcement at the top of the forum. This (if I do say so myself) isn't a bad walkthrough of how to apply for target shooting purposes, and for hunting purposes, the NARGC have a sample filled-in form (but read the walkthrough for target shooting anyway, the two together cover most eventualities).

Cass

triggermortis wrote: »

, how do I go about this?

Hand the firearm into a local dealer immediately because as it stands you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm.

Do I just go into the local Garda station and get some forms?

You need an FCA1 application form, and apply for the license. Sparks post helps explain all you need to do.

Will they want to know where it has come from? ( I bought it in 1984!!)

There is a section on the form for where you got the rifle from, ie- dealer or private sale. Your situation while not unique is rare. I would suggest a talk to your local firearms officer, explain everything, be upfront, informhim/her that you have the firearm in a dealers while you now seek the license. All should be good.

Any other things they may ask?

I think the only issue will be the length of time you had it without a license. It could cause probelms, but i'm not in a position to answer this accurately. Only your FO can.

Sorry if I'm high-jacking someones thread, this is all news to me.

I do not want to be cruel/nasty, but ignorance will not be seen as an excuse for not having the license. B upfront and polite, and you may find them haooy to help as you are willing to sort it out now.

triggermortis

Thanks for the replies - I didn't get to the thread from the first page so I didn't see the top of the forum. I'll get onto this asap, cheers

recipio

The above thread highlights the nonsense of the licencing laws.It really is time to tell Alan Shatter that airguns are not firearms and we want to be treated like any other EU citizen.
Something tells me that arm twisting is going to be more successful that any appeal to reason. Discuss !.

johngalway

recipio wrote: »

The above thread highlights the nonsense of the licencing laws.It really is time to tell Alan Shatter that airguns are not firearms and we want to be treated like any other EU citizen.
Something tells me that arm twisting is going to be more successful that any appeal to reason. Discuss !.

I'd be delighted to know what your leverage is?

Grizzly 45

And in that case,I think there would be a que of different shooting sports here that would be clamouring for that to be put to good use rather than airguns...[No offence guys:)]

recipio

johngalway wrote: »

I'd be delighted to know what your leverage is?

Well, what Irish government ever changed a law because it was the right thing to do. ? They either need to be pressurized or shamed into action.
Think contraception, gay rights and divorce.
However, I concede that we are not going to march on the dail to change the last piece of legislation.I don't have any leverage but I am going to research the issue.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And in that case,I think there would be a que of different shooting sports here that would be clamouring for that to be put to good use rather than airguns...[No offence guys:)]

...and that's why we don't have a single lobbying body for all the target shooting sports.

FISMA

eth0 wrote: »

Its ridiculous over here that things such as pellet guns and even paintball guns require a license.

eth0,
I am not saying that I like the current situation in Ireland, however, sometimes the grass does look greener.

In certain areas of the US, whether you want to buy a bb gun or a 50 cal, you'll need to fill out the same paperwork and go through the same procedure. Imagaine having to go through an Federal background check because you want the Daisy Red Rider.:rolleyes:

Also, forget the idea of getting a silencer/moderator for anything, especially hunting. Many states forbid them altogether. Others allow them only with thousands of dollars of fees.

True, Ireland could be better, but it could also be worse.

Cass

recipio wrote: »

Something tells me that arm twisting is going to be more successful that any appeal to reason. Discuss !.

recipio wrote: »

They either need to be pressurized or shamed into action.

I've said this before, but to re-iterate. There is absolutely nothing we can do as shooters. Of course we can lobby, sign petitions, seek meetings for consultation, but the key point is the DOJ/Gov. DO NOT need our permission or blessing to do anything in relation to firearms. Whether our ideas carry merit or not is rrelevant to them.

We have firearms at their discretion not, as some falsely believe, because we have a right to them. There is nothing we, shooters, have that the DOJ/Gov. want or need from us. Its not like they are going to ask us to give up some item for license free air guns. If they want us to give something up they simply amend the Act or quicker again impliment a new SI, and take it from us.

Think contraception, gay rights and divorce.

Thats a fairly big social topic which most people either for or against have an opinion on. Thing is guns are not as socially accepted as these. So while some may be for it, some may falsely say they agree with it to publicity sake nowhere near as many people have the same thoughts on firearms.

I get that you are using it as a point of comparison, but really firearms stnad on their own in most contexts.

.I don't have any leverage .............

You're not on your own. Even NGBs don't carry any leverage. Maybe enough of a good reputation to be seen/heard but nowhere near anything that resembles the lobbying ability of say the American NRA.

johngalway

recipio wrote: »

Well, what Irish government ever changed a law because it was the right thing to do. ? They either need to be pressurized or shamed into action.
Think contraception, gay rights and divorce.
However, I concede that we are not going to march on the dail to change the last piece of legislation.I don't have any leverage but I am going to research the issue.

I asked the question because of the way you put it. As if shooters can march into the Minister for Justices office, pound on the table and tell him how it is...

Not going to happen, or work.

As for Irish politicians having shame :pac:

I don't know how to change it,I don't have the knowledge of the legislation, time or interest required, but I know that going in bull headed about it will only meet with a great big impenetrable wall of nothing.

Grizzly 45

FISMA wrote: »

eth0,
I am not saying that I like the current situation in Ireland, however, sometimes the grass does look greener.

In certain areas of the US, whether you want to buy a bb gun or a 50 cal, you'll need to fill out the same paperwork and go through the same procedure. Imagaine having to go through an Federal background check because you want the Daisy Red Rider.:rolleyes:

And what State might that be that regulates BB guns??
Oh proably California!:rolleyes::rolleyes:.Most sane states and the Federal Govt in the form of BATFE do not consider bb guns,air guns or paintball guns ,Xbows,or black powder firearms as firearms at all...They are classified as,Antiques[inc replicas] Non guns or sporting equipment.
So I doubt very much you will be filling out a federal form on purchasing a bb gun at Wally Mart.Not that you will be filling much forms either..The Brady instant check is supposed to confirm or deny you wether you are a henious criminal or innocent citizen trying to buy a duck hunting shotgun.
That check goes to your local Sheriffs dept,and State sheriffs computor.It does not go to the Feds in Washington DC...Yet! All the Feds are intrested in is wether you have anything full auto ,sawn off or goes boomm expensively,and that they got 200 dollars off you ,and you arent called Bin Ladin or Hussien and arent buying 10 or more handguns or longarms per week.

You might find a town or city ordinance law that requires that stuff to be registerd.Like Morton Grove Illinois!:rolleyes::rolleyes: The first" gun free " and "highest crime rate" town in the USA.Fortunatly that place is the exception to the rule.

Also, forget the idea of getting a silencer/moderator for anything, especially hunting. Many states forbid them altogether. Others allow them only with thousands of dollars of fees.

Sorry but thats totally wrong Fisma!:(:(.
There are now more states that allow possesssion of Class three weaponary[ATFE terms not mine] than that prohibit them.That is anything from a destreuctive device[IOW a mortar,cannon] to full auto firearm,to sawn off shotgun or rifle[a short barrelled shotgun or short barrelled rifle]

It is not Thousands of dollars of fees either...It is a 200 usd once off fee per item to the IRS via the ATFE.
Along with a Federal backround check,which usually takes the longest of 12 to 16 weeks...two sets of your finger prints[About 30 dollars at the Sheriffs or police dept].
What might cost thousands is the actual purchase of your Class 3 item,not to mind the ammo to feed it,and the shipping costs.
Depending in what state you live in..Silencers and full auto arent legal.However I do belive Arkenshaw and Louisianna do allow using FA to hunt.I know Arizona did allow silencers for awhile.

True, Ireland could be better, but it could also be worse

Worse??How could it possibly be worse??
[Thinking Monthy Pythons Life of Brian.. the stoning scene here!]

The worst US state for gun banning[Washington DC] has more liberal gun laws than we have.Even Zimbabwae has better gun laws than we have!!:mad: They allow IPSC pistol shooting there,and would be the first paranoid state to ban anything that would smell of "combat training" ..Even the gun banned totally paranoid UK has better laws than us,in some cases.

Grizzly 45

johngalway wrote: »

I don't know how to change it,I don't have the knowledge of the legislation, time or interest required, but I know that going in bull headed about it will only meet with a great big impenetrable wall of nothing.

From a little bird in the DOJ told me...If anyone, person or group approached them with a reasonable proposition on any firearms matter ,they are willing to listen to you.

Anything about "rights" and arguements on that line wont be given the time of day by them!!
What we see and they see as "reasonable" is going to be the big bone of contention.So if anyone can come up with a reasonable arguement why air guns should be legal and off ticket or on limited ticket.Go and take your story to "the man" as they say.

johngalway

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

From a little bird in the DOJ told me...If anyone, person or group approached them with a reasonable proposition on any firearms matter ,they are willing to listen to you.

Anything about "rights" and arguements on that line wont be given the time of day by them!!
What we see and they see as "reasonable" is going to be the big bone of contention.So if anyone can come up with a reasonable arguement why air guns should be legal and off ticket or on limited ticket.Go and take your story to "the man" as they say.

Thought I said that, just shorter

But I do think anyone talking to DOJ does need to know, or have access to someone who does know the ins and outs of the legislation required. If not, you're at a disadvantage straight away if any sticky points are met. Not to nit pick about points, but just to be more nimble in maneuvering.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Worse??How could it possibly be worse??

Short memory much?
Ten years ago, when you were shooting, you couldn't licence any fullbore rifle over .270 Winchester in calibre or any pistol of any kind. Wasn't that worse?

And it could be worse than even that - you could be living under Japan's firearms laws.

Ours are unquestionably and undeniably a bad joke, but there *are* worse laws. And I've gone blue in the face trying to explain this before - if you don't know accurately where you stand, you're never going to succeed in moving forward.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

From a little bird in the DOJ told me...If anyone, person or group approached them with a reasonable proposition on any firearms matter ,they are willing to listen to you.

That's been my experience with them for the last few years.

Anything about "rights" and arguements on that line wont be given the time of day by them!

Yup. Mainly because most of the people who've mentioned rights wouldn't know section 42 if you slapped them round the head with a printed copy of it.

What we see and they see as "reasonable" is going to be the big bone of contention.So if anyone can come up with a reasonable arguement why air guns should be legal and off ticket or on limited ticket.Go and take your story to "the man" as they say.

As I said above...

Sparks wrote: »

The idea of raising the muzzle energy threshold for airguns from the current 1 joule to the 12 ft-lb level of the UK or the 7-joule level of the German system was brought up, and again wasn't shot down - there's no perceived problem with things like paintball (and I made the point that paintball markers have twice the muzzle energy of an air rifle so if they're okay, we should be too, and I pointed out the problems of bringing in air rifles for competitions). However, while this is a possible thing that may happen (in, say, the Misc.Provisions Bill) it needs to be discussed at FCP level first. Des Crofton made the point that while this is definitely something we should be looking to do, practical limits on people may lead to the FCP having short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, and this may not make it to the short-term list

FISMA

Hi Grizz,
I am speaking as someone having firearms on both sides of the Atlantic. Someone that has gone through the process on both sides and care share their personal experience. From what I gather, you're in a similar, but not the same boat.

Obviously, things are in general better in the States. My post is intended to demonstrate that in specific instances, places in the US can be just as bad, if not worse, than Ireland.

Go to a Bass Pro shop in IL and ask to see a gun. They'll ask for your permits. This is true in other places across the county: you are not allowed to touch a gun without a permit since the law says anyone that possesses a firearm, must have a permit.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And what State might that be that regulates BB guns??
Oh probably California!.

Ca is too easy a target, so let's leave them out in this discussion. There's plenty of places (states, counties, and cities) just as bad, if not worse, than CA.

Go to Walmart in NJ and ask to buy a BB gun. They'll ask you for your Firearms ID card which takes half a year to get, involves a background mental health check, and more. You'll also have to pay more in fees than the BB gun is probably worth and have a NICS check. The NICS check is a free FBI check, but you'll pay for it in NJ.

So in NJ, whether you want a BB gun, pellet gun, or the Barret 50cal, there's no difference!

To be honest, I bet Walmart in NJ have totally removed the firearms section. They'd probably tell you to head to PA.

My moderator comment was not intended to be general, however, I did not write as specifically as intended, I'll try again. Also, I'll back of the "thousands of dollars" comment in general but hold in for specific instances. Rather, I will say that in some states, they're just priceless!;)

You're quoting of Federal Law isn't enough to determine price Grizz. True, the ATF, a federal agency, charges $200. However, states are allowed to make their own laws in addition to the federal and those liberal states love their fees.

When Irish people hear of US liberal gun laws, they have often been misled and don't understand the structure of law in the US.

Federal gun laws are usually quoted. There are also, state laws, county laws, and local laws. All too often County Laws, in effect, render useless Federal Law and the Constitution.

Grizz, next time you're in the states, PM me, I'll put you up and take you out for a shot (and a pint!). All I ask is that you go to the local police department and tell them that you want to put a silencer on your hunting rifle. After the laughter stops, they'll explain why. For a preview of what they'll say, click here. Safe to open, worth a laugh, and you've probably already seen it.

This is true in many areas of the county and at the state level as well. There's no way someone in NYC, DC, and other places is going to get a license to have a moderator on their hunting rifle.

On a more ludicrous note, consider the Governor of NJ in 2002, James McGreevy, who enacted "smart gun" legislation that would eventually require new handguns to contain a mechanism that allows only their owners to fire them. What?:eek: So this technology doesn't exist, but when it does, we'll have a law for it?

Seriously, this state enacts legislation on unreliable, unavailable, future technologies?!?! I really do not know what to say about this. Have Irish politicians ever suggested such measures?

In NJ, you cannot hunt with a big bore rifle, forget the moderator as well. I think they do allow black powder bores, but not 30-06 or 308's and such.

Please correct me if I am wrong, you cannot own a silencer in DE, DC, HI, IL, NY, NJ, RI.

Let's add to the list CA, KS, MO, MN where you can own a silencer. The cavaet is that you have to have a Class III license. This is the license level that allows you to own a fully automatic firearm. This is where the thousands of dollars cost comes in.

Sorry lads if I am derailing the post into boring silly US laws. However, I think it goes back to my original comment that although Irish gun laws could be better, they could always be worse.

Also, sorry for the long post lads, but there's sneachta outside where I am, four inches! Looks like the first white Halloween in my lifetime.

The devil's in the details lads!;)

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;75197880]Short memory much?
Ten years ago, when you were shooting, you couldn't licence any fullbore rifle over .270 Winchester in calibre or any pistol of any kind. Wasn't that worse?

You mean now 15 years??:p:p.As for the pistols ,lets not go there...one step forward ,three back.:(

And it could be worse than even that - you could be living under Japan's firearms laws.

True,or N Korea,or the Scheylles,or,or or..However its not the point.
We are where we are.And no doubt the bad joke will become a sick joke.

Ours are unquestionably and undeniably a bad joke, but there *are* worse laws. And I've gone blue in the face trying to explain this before - if you don't know accurately where you stand, you're never going to succeed in moving forward.

So where DO we stand???
Big cal pistols came back and are now efffectively baned,bar a grandfathering few hundred.Who will proably have to do the district court tour every three years.No FCP anymore,while being a deaf,dumb,and blind one legged eneuch,it was better than nothing.An approved list of 22 pistols that Supers take as gospel and refuse to budge off despite being told by their own superior officers and firearms advisory teams that they can move ?
Ludicrious features making shotguns "more dangerous" than other types.Somthing no one cared about pre CJB.Proably a dozen other things good/bad I missed.
Weighing it up we are.......????And way forward is.....????

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

However its not the point.

You were the one who has a habit of bringing up other jurisdictions in just about every thread on this line Grizzly

So where DO we stand???
Big cal pistols came back and are now efffectively baned

There's a reason we have two phrases (de facto and de jure) for sets of rules Grizzly - because they're different. Right now, large calibre pistols are banned not because large calibre pistols are banned, but because restricted short firearms cannot be licenced. If large calibre pistols were taken off the restricted list, the effective ban would end. As I've said many times, that requires one ministerial signature, nothing more.

No FCP anymore,while being a deaf,dumb,and blind one legged eneuch,it was better than nothing.

/facepalm
Grizz, for a guy who prides himself on knowing what's what and being all hard-nosed and truthiness-seeking, there are times when I swear you wouldn't know your best friend if he was donating a kidney to you.

An approved list of 22 pistols that Supers take as gospel and refuse to budge off despite being told by their own superior officers and firearms advisory teams that they can move ?

1. Supers are no longer the Persona Designata;
2. District Court Justices don't like the notion of taking orders from the Commissioner;
3. The Firearms Policy Unit can and does sort out most of those snafus (don't tell me they're toothless Grizz, I know they're not perfect, but I also know they do work); and
4. It's getting better all the time.

And this wasn't a new problem anyway - I remember quite well that we had exactly the same problem prior to the 2006 Act, with Supers making it up as they went along. Then, as now, it was a tiny minority. Then, as now, it wasn't good enough, but we didn't think the entire system needed to be thrown out to make up a new one from whole cloth. Now, as opposed to then, we had to go the High Court for a Judicial Appeal to get a decision even reviewed (the HC couldn't direct a Super to issue a licence even if the JR went against his decision, don't forget) - but now the District Court handles it and can direct a Super to issue (yes, I know, you've had fun in that regard. You still got the licence, even when the Super didn't want to issue it, and you would need a very dodgy memory to not be able to see that that's a step forward on the appeals front - if nowhere else).

Ludicrious features making shotguns "more dangerous" than other types.Somthing no one cared about pre CJB.Proably a dozen other things good/bad I missed.

Shotguns have the lowest requirements of any class of firearms for secure storage. Not sure what you're referring to here Grizz.

Weighing it up we are.......????And way forward is.....????

We are stuck dealing with a ridiculously complex body of law, which maybe two dozen people in the country understand, and which is spread across 19 acts (my count was 18 till I came across the 1851 Act the other day), 60+ SIs, 2 EU directives, and so forth.
We are stuck with a legal avenue open to us to return large calibre pistols to general ownership that has a lower bar than was there before.
We are stuck with a competitive scene that's fairly anemic in some areas and fairly strong in others, and which is poised in the next year or so to get a dose of good PR from the Olympics (though I can hear the "but we don't all shoot ISSF" refrain now as if "a rising tide lifts all boats" wasn't a well-known saying).
And we're in an economic recession with massive debts, no free time for anyone, rampant unemployment, and a government looking for anything that will make them look good, and 180+ high court cases lined up in the diary.

So basicly, we're at a tipping point. We can either get hosed like we did in '09 or we can quit trying to bang heads with the PTB and try to find a better way forward.

recipio

Guys, I think we have wandered off the topic of the original question.
Eridaz, my comments were late night musing and no more.
Of course I realize that civil discussion will yield better results than threats.
I understand however (' Examiner' report June 2011 ) that the Law reform commision have urged reform of the said act.
It seems to me that the body who should be interested in non-olympic airgun use is the SSAI and I dont see a scintila of activity from them. The truth is that recreational airgun shooting has no effective lobby and will always be bottom of the agenda.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

You were the one who has a habit of bringing up other jurisdictions in just about every thread on this line Grizzly

Touche Sparks!:)

If large calibre pistols were taken off the restricted list, the effective ban would end. As I've said many times, that requires one ministerial signature, nothing more

.

And a very brave Minister to do this.Who isnt afraid of bad PR or worrying about somthing going wrong on his watch...


/

facepalm
Grizz, for a guy who prides himself on knowing what's what and being all hard-nosed and truthiness-seeking, there are times when I swear you wouldn't know your best friend if he was donating a kidney to you.

Double facepalm..
Why do you think I brought it up??You yourself said it was all we had to get a word in the DOJ ear numerous times,and that it had no enforcement capability or legislative capability...Which was just as well.
So it was an advisory body,with a voice,albeit very tiny,but a voice and thats why I'm saying it is a loss!!

1. 1. Supers are no longer the Persona Designata;
   2. District Court Justices don't like the notion of taking orders from the Commissioner;
   3. The Firearms Policy Unit can and does sort out most of those snafus (don't tell me they're toothless Grizz, I know they're not perfect, but I also know they do work); and
   4. It's getting better all the time.

1] Could somone please tell them that maybe??
2]As it should be ..
3]Seem to be slective in those matters...From experiance:pac:
4]One would hope,but being pessimistic means you are never dissapointed.


-

but now the District Court handles it and can direct a Super to issue (yes, I know, you've had fun in that regard. You still got the licence, even when the Super didn't want to issue it, and you would need a very dodgy memory to not be able to see that that's a step forward on the appeals front - if nowhere else).

Very true,but lets see if we have to keep playing DC follies every three years to keep it.Simple question of attrition really.

Shotguns have the lowest requirements of any class of firearms for secure storage. Not sure what you're referring to here Grizz.

Things like folding stocks,or a protruding pistol grip or higher mag capacity.There were a few about pre CJB,no one got upset about them and treated them as shotguns,albeit weird looking yokes.Post CJA they became a major witch hunt and crusade to rid the land of any such evil devices.

We are stuck dealing with a ridiculously complex body of law, which maybe two dozen people in the country understand, and which is spread across 19 acts (my count was 18 till I came across the 1851 Act the other day), 60+ SIs, 2 EU directives, and so forth.

No kidding!:rolleyes: maybe the old adage of the devil you know might apply here???IOW leave well enough alone as it might be stripped and somthing more draconian put in to replace it.

We are stuck with a legal avenue open to us to return large calibre pistols to general ownership that has a lower bar than was there before.

Possibly true,but then will any minister want to grab that hot potato???
After all the TCO was in how many ministers IN tray for a time after NI was winding down and the ceasefire??No one wanted to know about it seemingly.

We are stuck with a competitive scene that's fairly anemic in some areas and fairly strong in others, and which is poised in the next year or so to get a dose of good PR from the Olympics (though I can hear the "but we don't all shoot ISSF" refrain now as if "a rising tide lifts all boats" wasn't a well-known saying).

Hope so...But then again how much actual coverage does the Olympic shooting disiplines get??Especially here,in TV media rather than press media??

And we're in an economic recession with massive debts, no free time for anyone, rampant unemployment, and a government looking for anything that will make them look good, and 180+ high court cases lined up in the diary.

Of which they will take proably 10 test cases and use that to form a judgement.I get worried when Govts start to need to look good.All sorts of things happen then..Usually bad..

So basicly, we're at a tipping point. We can either get hosed like we did in '09 or we can quit trying to bang heads with the PTB and try to find a better way forward.

[/QUOTE]
Well, how can we talk to them as the FCP is now history??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, how can we talk to them as the FCP is now history??

Step one, lobby for the remit of the FCP to be extended to make it a permanent body.

Cass

recipio wrote: »

Eridaz, my comments were late night musing and no more.
Of course I realize that civil discussion will yield better results than threats. I understand however (' Examiner' report June 2011 ) that the Law reform commision have urged reform of the said act.

I never mentioned threats, nor did you so no need to discuss that avenue. My only point is even discussion is a privilege given to us. and that is not a cap in hand attitude, thats a fact. Any talks, dicussions, meetings are all at the DOJ/Gov. decretion.

Any body can say the Acts need changing, adjusting etc. but again its a suggestion, however strongly worded, and it menas no more to the Gov. than our requests.

It seems to me that the body who should be interested in non-olympic airgun use is the SSAI and I dont see a scintila of activity from them.

Thats because they are no more. A new body is being formed with new goals, and new agends. FISA.

The truth is that recreational airgun shooting has no effective lobby and will always be bottom of the agenda.

I'm afraid i don't know a lot about the internal dynamics of air gun shooting, the federations, bodies, etc in charge or their representative power or ability. Sparks is yer man for that. So i cannot accurately comment.

Grizzly 45

FISMA wrote: »

Hi Grizz,
I am speaking as someone having firearms on both sides of the Atlantic. Someone that has gone through the process on both sides and care share their personal experience. From what I gather, you're in a similar, but not the same boat.

Hi FIS,
Very much in the same boat.Have stuff on both sides of the pond,and was working at aquiring a FFL and Class3 weapon,before it went pear shaped and I came back here.

Obviously, things are in general better in the States. My post is intended to demonstrate that in specific instances, places in the US can be just as bad, if not worse, than Ireland.

You are talking some VERY,very specific cases,and from what I see mostly East coast anti gun states anyway. NJ ,IL,DC,NYC,Should add MA and HI and obviously CA as well to the list. Seven states out of 50.

Go to a Bass Pro shop in IL and ask to see a gun. They'll ask for your permits.

Not in the least bit surprised...

This is true in other places across the county

:
Where else??

you are not allowed to touch a gun without a permit since the law says anyone that possesses a firearm, must have a permit

.

Whoa!! Thats a bit sweeping now...That depends on wether you are in Il or Fla or wherever.By and large you dont need a permit for purchase.You need a five day waiting period ,be over 21 for handguns andlong arms you can take away there and then if you are over 18 and pass the instant check, have some ID and are resident in the state.Thats MY experiance of it,cant say for all states especially the East Left coast[although my family hails from NJ on my fathers side].
So its dependant on what state you live in.

Ca is too easy a target, so let's leave them out in this discussion. There's plenty of places (states, counties, and cities) just as bad, if not worse, than CA

.

True,but its the most craziest state for gun laws,and one I'm pretty fammillar with having been there and lived thru the fiasco of the "Crime control bill" courtsey of Bill Klintoon,and the farsical enforcement of it.

Go to Walmart in NJ and ask to buy a BB gun. They'll ask you for your Firearms ID card which takes half a year to get, involves a background mental health check, and more. You'll also have to pay more in fees than the BB gun is probably worth and have a NICS check. The NICS check is a free FBI check, but you'll pay for it in NJ.

Sounds like Ireland TBH,with the advantage of being able to purchase 50 cal rifles!!:D.Only thing we dont have here is the mental check..Which WILL come no doubt once our EU lords consolidate a further grip on our freedoms...Have done the fee paying as well,it seems if you want to hold on to your handgun or sem irifle,you will end up paying Fees alright in court.So sameo sameo.

Hmm nice to hear that NJ is still a pestilent Mob run swamp that is still gypping its citizens.It was that bad 25 years ago.

So in NJ, whether you want a BB gun, pellet gun, or the Barret 50cal, there's no difference!

See above..

My moderator comment was not intended to be general, however, I did not write as specifically as intended, I'll try again. Also, I'll back of the "thousands of dollars" comment in general but hold in for specific instances. Rather, I will say that in some states, they're just priceless!;)

Ah!So you are hedging your bets then???:P:P

You're quoting of Federal Law isn't enough to determine price Grizz. True, the ATF, a federal agency, charges $200. However, states are allowed to make their own laws in addition to the federal and those liberal states love their fees.

Er Yes States can make their own tax bands ,but not add on another tax ON the federal tax...Plus if it was on Class 3 stuff it is on the sales in the State.Not on the possession on an annual basis or for whatever time.
Otherwise it would be constituted as infringement of ownership,and we would have about this long and loud.Remember the famous Handgun control inc plan on an ammo tax???Didnt get very far either.If there was a possibility of it you can be sure bankrupt states like CA would have jumped on it.

When Irish people hear of US liberal gun laws, they have often been misled and don't understand the structure of law in the US.

Federal gun laws are usually quoted. There are also, state laws, county laws, and local laws. All too often County Laws, in effect, render useless Federal Law and the Constitution.

As I said in my previous post about town/city ordinances.BUT remember [Heller Vs DC] has changed this to a certain degree.The simple thing being you need money to fight it or an organisation like NRA or GOA to fight it.
Fact is ,we are over simplfying the discussion here.There are literally hundreds of loopholes to owning a certain type of firearm on a county level if state law permits it and the county doesnt.Bing "deputised":eek:[yup still happens] allows you alot of priviliges... Sheriffs office is THE LAW on county level.[Posse Commitatus act and all that]

Grizz, next time you're in the states, PM me, I'll put you up and take you out for a shot (and a pint!). All I ask is that you go to the local police department and tell them that you want to put a silencer on your hunting rifle. After the laughter stops, they'll explain why. For a preview of what they'll say, click here. Safe to open, worth a laugh, and you've probably already seen it.

Gladly on all three offers!.When you are home again ,PM me as well for a reciporcating offer.BUT we will have to go to the fish&game dept
The PD might look askence at us in some of those East states ,but in others [mostly in the proper America,south of the Mason Dixon line these days];). It will be "Y'all go on over to the F&G boys y'hear,he's my cusin,an y'all fill them thar forms an git to huntin! T'ain nuthin unusual to use a silencer in this state for huntin!"
Its again quantative some States do allow them,some dont for hunting.

This is true in many areas of the county and at the state level as well. There's no way someone in NYC, DC, and other places is going to get a license to have a moderator on their hunting rifle.

Well you wont own a hunting rifle in either of those two cities anyway !!
:(Its practically impossible becuse of their laws.But then again who wants to live in DC or NYC???:rolleyes:And ifyou DO need one,simply enquire of your local rep of "homeboy retail",and they will get you whatever you require with no paperwork or waiting time in either of those cities.

On a more ludicrous note, consider the Governor of NJ in 2002, James McGreevy, who enacted "smart gun" legislation that would eventually require new handguns to contain a mechanism that allows only their owners to fire them. What? So this technology doesn't exist, but when it does, we'll have a law for it?

Seriously, this state enacts legislation on unreliable, unavailable, future technologies?!?! I really do not know what to say about this. Have Irish politicians ever suggested such measures?

Oh you expected somthing sensible from a NJ politican???
Well yes we have our own daft legislation here as well.We banned an international shooting sport,because of political and police paranoia that it could be used for training up criminals,mercenaries and whatever else..
Truth is you can be sure of three things in this life death, taxes, and very stupid gun laws.Wherever you are.

In NJ, you cannot hunt with a big bore rifle, forget the moderator as well. I think they do allow black powder bores, but not 30-06 or 308's and such.

Amazed you can hunt at all in NJ.As they had offically a total ban on deer hunting in the 1980s up to mid 1990s :eek:. Done at behest of the anti hunting lobby of course.It got so bad the deer died of starvation as they had over pouplated the state and stripped out their resources in food and terrority.All the stuff like artifical contraception was an expensive tax paid failure.So obviously they are still faffing around with it .I suppose you have to shoot them with a .22lr ???:rolleyes:

Please correct me if I am wrong, you cannot own a silencer in DE, DC, HI, IL, NY, NJ, RI.

Its..
Civilian ownership is prohibited in the District of Columbia and the following states: California, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.

12states

but you can own one in;

Silencers are legal for civilian ownership in the following states Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri (C&R Required), Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming.

38 States.Think the Ayes have it for more liberal laws.

Let's add to the list CA, KS, MO, MN where you can own a silencer. The cavaet is that you have to have a Class III license. This is the license level that allows you to own a fully automatic firearm. This is where the thousands of dollars cost comes in.

Nope not quite!You need to be a class 3 dealer or a class 2 manufacturer in those states to own a silencer.There the thousands would come into play alright for busisness expenses etc.But thats not comparing like for like is it??

The only place you will pay thousands are in the purchase of a full auto[silencers are cheaper ]
the feeding of it,and the storage of it.[As you dont want your 10K Browning 30 cal to be nicked]

As an aside not ONE legally held Full auto gun has ever been stolen or used in a crime according to the FBI stats!!!Saying somthing!

Sorry lads if I am derailing the post into boring silly US laws. However, I think it goes back to my original comment that although Irish gun laws could be better, they could always be worse.

Likewise,for derailing the post..However unless you want to live in a state that is one of the 12.The worst thing would be you can always have a 2nd residency in another state with better gun laws,thats within 3 hours driving [mostly]or flying time.Try that one here in Ireland with the EU!!!
The US you have options the EU less so.:(

Also, sorry for the long post lads, but there's sneachta outside where I am, four inches! Looks like the first white Halloween in my lifetime

.

Looks like by Turkey day you'll be snowed in then??:eek::D

The devil's in the details lads!;)[/

Always..But make sure you have all the detail to look for the divil.
Enough said..Back to airguns and legality here.:D