Will pellet guns ever be made license-free in Ireland

BigBoi83

Is a gun safe required for an air gun?

Cass

Yes. As a firearm, unrestricted, it requires a safe.

pedroeibar1

Ezridax wrote: »

Yes. As a firearm, unrestricted, it requires a safe.

Not correct.
P

eth0

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not correct.
P

Are you sure? Requiring a safe for 2 of those yokes would be taking the piss altogether

Cass

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not correct.
P

Do explain.

dev110

Ezridax wrote: »

Do explain.

I think what he is saying is a shotgun doesn't need a safe. It can be split up and hidden/stored in different areas. I'm not 100% sure on that

Any rifle needs a safe.

dev110

BigBoi83 wrote: »

Is a gun safe required for an air gun?

I'm not disagreeing with you. I know a rifle needs a safe but I think what pedroeibar1 was trying to get at was the fact you said:

Ezridax wrote: »

Yes. As a firearm, unrestricted, it requires a safe.

when that not all unrestricted firearms needs a gun safe eg a single shotgun.

I believe he was just being particular because BigBoi asked about an airgun not a shotgun.

Cass

As the poster asked about an air rifle thats moot.

For one unrestricted shotgun, you can break it down and store the parts seperately, however for three or fewer unrestricted (or one restricted) firearm a safe is needed. Air rifle falls into the category of three or fewer as it is a rifle, and not a shotgun.

MC.ISF

the law here is incredibly contradictory ... It says you can break up a shotgun and store it in separate places , yet it even classes the foregrip of a shotgun as a firearm ? How come its ok to have a shotgun in the house where it can be reached by burglars or someone else , Dont burglars usually ramsack the house and turn everything upside to find anything valuable ? wouldnt be that hard to come across shotgun barrels and the breech aswell ! I think ANY firearm should be stored in a safe , no exceptions. Then again this is Ireland and for some reason anything that makes sense is never done here by the government....

Cass

MC.ISF wrote: »

I think ANY firearm should be stored in a safe , no exceptions. ....

Thats my own personal belief. its not to keep the Gardai happy, but make sure when i'm away my firearm is as secure as i cna make it.

Also the security standards are MINIMUM standards, meaning even if you have only one shotgun the Super can impose any security measure he deems appropriate depending on place of residence, etc, and you must fulfill them.

dev110 wrote:

when that not all unrestricted firearms needs a gun safe eg a single shotgun

A single shotgun COULD BE the only exception. I say could be because, as said above, they are minimum standards, and from what i'm hearing more and more Supers are seeking a safe irrespective of amount or nature of firearm.

I worded my original response to BigBoi rather baguely, but as he refered to rifle i didn't think the minimum standard for a shotgun was relevant so my original point of YES he does need a safe still stands.

pedroeibar1

Ezridax wrote: »

Thats my own personal belief. its not to keep the Gardai happy, but make sure when i'm away my firearm is as secure as i cna make it.

Also the security standards are MINIMUM standards, meaning even if you have only one shotgun the Super can impose any security measure he deems appropriate depending on place of residence, etc, and you must fulfill them.
A single shotgun COULD BE the only exception. I say could be because, as said above, they are minimum standards, and from what i'm hearing more and more Supers are seeking a safe irrespective of amount or nature of firearm.

I worded my original response to BigBoi rather baguely, but as he refered to rifle i didn't think the minimum standard for a shotgun was relevant so my original point of YES he does need a safe still stands.

To be clear, BigBoi asked

BigBoi83 wrote: »

Is a gun safe required for an air gun?

and I answered on that basis.
While I see your point Ezri, I’m basing my interpretation on:

Section 4. (1) Firearms other than those to which subparagraph (2) relates are declared to be restricted firearms for the purposes of the Act:
(2) This subparagraph relates to the following firearms:
(c) the following long firearms (not being assault rifles or bullpup rifles):
(iii) air-operated rifled or smoothbore firearms

So, under Section 4((1) Para (2) (c) an air rifle is not a restricted firearm.

and

S.I. No. 307 of 2009 FIREARMS (SECURE ACCOMMODATION) REGULATIONS 2009
Schedule Details 1: One non-restricted shot-gun. - The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.

Schedule Details 2: One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms. - Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.

While it could be argued (as you have,Ezri) that an air rifle is ‘three or fewer non-restricted firearms’ a counter-argument is that one shotgun would fall into a similar categorization, which clearly is not the intent of the Act. Furthermore, it would be ridiculous for the Authorities to insist on that point for an air rifle when a single shotgun clearly does not require a safe.

I agree with MCISF above that the wording is most unclear. (Sparks was less polite when he said 'Can.Of.Worms):D . For example, suppose you have one restricted rifle and three shotguns, the use of the word ‘or’ in Schedule Details 2 quoted above is less than helpful to what is meant, because the next category does not properly describe it either in Schedule Details 3 - Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms - Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621.

It simply does not make sense to force the requirement of a 200 euro safe to store a 150 euro air rifle (yes, I know some are a lot more expensive.) That is how a Court would see it IMO. Keep the air rifle in one place, have a trigger lock on it and keep the gas elsewhere. If a CS is being so bolshy to force you to have a safe he probably has good reason froma security viewpoint, unles you could prove to the contrary.
I keep my guns – and other things – secure in a safe because they are valuable and important to me. However, I also keep Roundup, Gramoxone and other weed killers under lock & key because they are dangerous.
Rs,
P.

Cass

I see what you're saying however you cannot read something into the SI that is not there.

An air rifle is not restricted. No argument there. However the first schedule of security states specifically "Unrestricted Shotgun". It is the only mention of a particular type of firearm throughout the entire SI. By that i mean in schedules 2, 3, and 4 it refers to every other type of firearm as a firearm or restricted/unrestricted. It never states rifle, semi auto, pistol, revolver, etc.

If they had intended for the "disassemble, and store seperately" rule to apply to air rifles they would have mentioned or noted air rifle in the schedule. Then reason for this is that air rifles have been branded the same as any other rifle irrespective of caliber. So if an air rifle could be disassembled, by whatever means, and stored seperately then it would be argued by some that if you remove the bolt, scope, mag, etc from a CZ452 (.22lr), Steyr (.243) or TRG22 (.308) then you could also store this unrestricted firearm in the same manner.

Thats why the word shotgun is used. To highlight the fact that ONLY an unrestricted shotgun can be broken down and stored seperately. Anything else falls under schedule 2 by default of it not being an unrestricted shotgun. That includes air rifle, CZ452 (.22lr), Steyr (.243) or TRG22 (.308).

pedroeibar1

Ezridax wrote: »

I see what you're saying however you cannot read something into the SI that is not there.

Neither can you:D. Some gunowners are too paranoid about the rules and what might be meant. Let's not discuss it here or we could be doing ourselves a world of harm by giving 'them' ammunition from the collective erudition of this board;).
Rs
P.

Cass

I fail to see what your seeing. There is no "wiggle room" in schedule 1.

Schedule Details 1: One non-restricted shot-gun.

It does not mention any other type of firearm. If it said "One non-restricted firearm" then we would be on the pigs back. It doesn't so we aren't.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it herem i'm really not, but i just don't see the "room" you do for trying to slip an air rifle in as a non-restricted shotgun. Maybe others do, and i have been known to miss the glaringly obvious.:o

Sparks

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Neither can you:D. Some gunowners are too paranoid about the rules and what might be meant.

Yeah, but in this case, unless the vast majority of farmers use single-barrel airguns instead of single-barrel shotguns, both the meaning of the SI and the reason for the absurdity are fairly clear

recipio

I'm a bit late to this argument but just to add my tuppenceworth.
Its clear there has been a hostile attitude to airgun ownership by successive governments since the first licencing act in 1972.
Why is this ? The first knee jerk reaction to the NI troubles has been reinforced and made much more draconian.
Personally I think its a combination of conservative politicians, lazy civil servants and a strong garda input to government policy.
Is this a good thing ? Not in my book. Any legislation which simple proscribes an activity instead of attempting a fair solution is bad.( We are so out of kilter with every other EU state that I regard airgun ownership as being virtually banned )
In the UK , airgun ownership is treated as a hobby and it has blossomed in the last 20 years with dedicated airgun shops, freedom to sell second hand and no big brother attitude to ownership.Laws are however rigorously enforced.
We will have no change in airgun law unless we can change the mindset in government.

Sparks

Er, recipio, the firearms act that required you to have a licence for an airgun was the 1964 Act, eight years before '72. And there was no 1972 Act at all, just an SI to implement the TCO.
Honestly, I seriously doubt anyone ever thought to link the Troubles and airguns. Ever.
And I don't think airgun ownership is banned, since I've owned two for years. It could be enormously better, and the current status is a bad joke, but it's not a ban.

extremetaz

@ Recipio: I applied for my first airgun licence (and my first firearms licence at that) a few months ago.

Filled the paperwork out diligently and completely. Submitted, got my acceptance letter and demand for payment 7 days later, received my ticket 10 days after that.

No drama whatsoever - so no, current legislation isn't effectively banning airgunning.

Having said that, and as mentioned earlier, an 18+ age requirement for purchase, operated in conjunction with a provision for licence free sub-16J units would be far more than sufficient regulation for the sector.

Or at the very least, a singular firearms certification rather than individual licencing.

recipio

Thanks guys.
Sparks, I defer to your knowledge in this area. All I remember is a guard calling around in 1972 telling me that I needed a £5 licence or hand up the gun. (it was a Crosman bb gun so I handed it up - £5 was a lot of money in 1972 )
Extremetez, I'm delighted you got your licence quickly. However I think if you went into the 'Super' again and said you had fancied another airgun you would get short shrift unless you are an olympic shooter.
What I object to is state control of every purchase of every airgun. No other EU state imposes such harsh conditions. I'd have no problem with registration of guns or a blanket licence to own them but the present legislation is overkill. I also think it encourages teenagers to move into firearms too early as the requirements for ownership are essentially the same.
If EU equality is not important then perhaps our political masters might be convinced of the commercial advantgages of a more relaxed regime. ?

Sparks

Well, if you had it sans licence till '72, you technically got 8 years free...

And the sentiment I agree with completely - the current licencing system for airguns is ridiculous. Age restrictions for purchase (though not for supervised use), even registration of airguns, I can understand and agree with, but having to have a gun safe, two character references, no medical confidentiality, no right of immunity from unwarranted search, and so on, all to have an air pistol that's not a firearm anywhere else in the EU; while I'm able to order as many recurve or compound bows as I want off the internet without any vetting, storage requirements, safe usage requirements or anything else, when they are at least equally (and far more usually, much more) potentially lethal... well, it makes no sense to me at all.

extremetaz

recipio wrote: »

Extremetez, I'm delighted you got your licence quickly. However I think if you went into the 'Super' again and said you had fancied another airgun you would get short shrift unless you are an olympic shooter.

I'll let you know in about a year.

Sparks

recipio wrote: »

Extremetez, I'm delighted you got your licence quickly. However I think if you went into the 'Super' again and said you had fancied another airgun you would get short shrift unless you are an olympic shooter.

Actually, you'd get short shrift if you were an olympic shooter and "I fancy that" was your good reason. "I need that for a competitive advantage", okay, but "I fancy that" isn't really thought of as a good reason. It's actually thought of as a specific bad reason from what I know...

MC.ISF

Sparks , Just out of interest , Is the law on Airguns up the North the same as the laws in England ?

Sparks

MC.ISF wrote: »

Sparks , Just out of interest , Is the law on Airguns up the North the same as the laws in England ?

Don't think so (AFAIK you have to licence airguns up north), but I don't know very much about the NI firearms acts. Maybe one of our NI posters can comment?

CamperMan

You can kill or injure someone with a pencil or a beer glass!

bazza888 wrote: »

ithink its because a pellet gun can kill or seriously injure if you shoot someone in the wrong place with it,look at england they say they have problems with teenagers buying them and shooting people for the craic.i dont see the harm in having to get a license for it the only downside of that is that it costs you 80e. im waiting on a licence for one at the moment.

bazza888

i know you can but unfortunately the powers that be see any type of gun as being extremely lethal,even more so if its black etc to them a gun is a gun is agun,ididnt make the rules ,all im saying is my guess is that was their reasoning behind making airguns need a license,and it wont be changing anytime soon.

von dreyse

To get back to the point of "will they ever be made licence free in Ireland", there was a chief superintendent on drive time with Mary Wilson about six months back and he was suggesting you should more or less need a licence to own a mobile phone as criminals use untracable pay as you go ones that cannot be traced back to them, so with that attitude with the "powers that be " it's not looking good for air guns.

recipio

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, you'd get short shrift if you were an olympic shooter and "I fancy that" was your good reason. "I need that for a competitive advantage", okay, but "I fancy that" isn't really thought of as a good reason. It's actually thought of as a specific bad reason from what I know...

Sparks, you have raised a pertinent point. I think airgun owners are basically two types.Some are very happy to own a gun that satisfies their needs- target or recreational shooting, whatever it may be.
Others like myself are interested in the mechanics of airguns and love to tinker or restore them. ( I did this when I lived in the UK, even buying guns at car boot sales but obviously not here )
My point really is that the legislation has banned this aspect of the sport and its pretty frustrating reading UK airgun magazines knowing its all out of reach.
Its not even based on any rational science. The ft/lbs energy of an arrow is about 58 ,much more likely to kill you that a pellet doing 12 ft/lbs.
I, for one, would be happy with UK type legislation.

extremetaz

recipio wrote: »

Others like myself are interested in the mechanics of airguns and love to tinker or restore them. ( I did this when I lived in the UK, even buying guns at car boot sales but obviously not here )
My point really is that the legislation has banned this aspect of the sport and its pretty frustrating reading UK airgun magazines knowing its all out of reach.

This point I would agree with - I would love to have an air rifle for every day of the week as it were. Different calibers/mechanisms/configurations all have their own niche moments be it on account of speed, weight, balance, recoil etc.... something to suit every mood, or at a deeper level, to help target specific weaknesses in technique.

The way things are at the moment though, even if the powers that be were to let you expand your locker, €80 per ticket adds up pretty quickly.

A friend of mine has a couple of rifles (not air) the likes of which I'd love to have on the shelf for occasional use - one is an SMLE bored down to a .22LR (really aching to try this at 25m!) and the other is a "double barrel rifle" - 22LR on top and 20guage on the bottom. Exposed hammer with a selector switch build in. Beautiful light little thing.

Neither are immensely practical nor particularly broad reaching, but they're both little, historic works of art and should be licensable outside of the whole "proof of requirement" nonesense.

Sparks

extremetaz wrote: »

The way things are at the moment though, even if the powers that be were to let you expand your locker, €80 per ticket adds up pretty quickly.

I guess when you're looking at up to €3.5k for the high end of ISSF air rifles, €80 every 3 years doesn't seem like such a cost...

( €3.5k buys you a fully spec'd Walther LG400 in case you were wondering: )