Will pellet guns ever be made license-free in Ireland

eth0

Its ridiculous over here that things such as pellet guns and even paintball guns require a license.

In so many other countries these are classed as toys and any ould eejit over a certain age can buy them so why the big deal about them over here?

You don't hear about the massive amount of pellet gun related deaths in these other countries so is it not time to stop being so overcautious about pellet guns.

Just out of interest how did things end up being so restrictive over here with such low powered weapons?

bazza888

ithink its because a pellet gun can kill or seriously injure if you shoot someone in the wrong place with it,look at england they say they have problems with teenagers buying them and shooting people for the craic.i dont see the harm in having to get a license for it the only downside of that is that it costs you 80e. im waiting on a licence for one at the moment.

kildare.17hmr

I dont think its a bad thing ether having to licence them, every dope in the country would have one and be acting the mick. I think a different system of licencin for them maybe just to keep tabs on who has them in different areas might keep the prick actin with them under control but hey thats ireland

bazza888

my thoughts exactly kildare,the estates would be full of scobes with them otherwise,if you want one youd get alicense the same as everyone,its a pain but id rather it that way or the way kildare says

rowa

I don't think they should be treated like a cartridge firearm though , it should be that if you are a member of a gun club you can have a 12ft/lb air rifle or 6ft/lb air pistol for targets without a licence , maybe an authorisation from the super like it used to be with sound moderators.

kildare.17hmr

rowa wrote: »

I don't think they should be treated like a cartridge firearm though , it should be that if you are a member of a gun club you can have a 12ft/lb air rifle or 6ft/lb air pistol for targets without a licence , maybe an authorisation from the super like it used to be with sound moderators.

yeah thats what i mean, would work much btter and get more people into it i reckon

eth0

Definitely a lesser class of license would be a help without the rigmarole or the 80e every 3 years expense just for owning it.

Just doesn't seem fair when I know lads in holland that have 3 or 4 of them hanging in their shed not a bother and they're not being used to kill any children. I'd have to pay over 100 a year in license to own as many as this fella has

The last decade or two not enough could possibly be done to make life safer for the children and more difficult & boring for everyone else I would love if they started to reverse the trend just a small bit

MC.ISF

You know what would be a good idea? If you already have a firearms license for a shotgun or rifle , I think you should be allowed to buy an air rifle without going through the whole process again. Cross the water to england and you can walk into a Hunting shop and walk out with a full power air rifle. Granted yes they can kill , but theyre not as powerful as a .22lr or shotgun... after all it doesnt take a rocket scientist to make a bump-fire shotgun. Just because its an air rifle doesnt mean people are going to be irresponsible with it due to the lower power. I think that people who hold firearm licenses should be allowed purchase them. That way the sale will be regulated and they wont be just sold over the counter to anyone like in england.

bazza888

i agree with all of what your saying,in englang you need a license for anything over 12ftlb,under that anybody can get one.ithink the lesser license would be a good idea.ilike rowa and mcs ideas,but as we know theres not much chance of the law reguarding this changing anytime soon,so i went ahead and got one,its a pain to pay the 80e but ithink they are a usefull tool so i said id go for it

snipeface

MC.ISF wrote: »

You know what would be a good idea? If you already have a firearms license for a shotgun or rifle , I think you should be allowed to buy an air rifle without going through the whole process again. Cross the water to england and you can walk into a Hunting shop and walk out with a full power air rifle. Granted yes they can kill , but theyre not as powerful as a .22lr or shotgun... after all it doesnt take a rocket scientist to make a bump-fire shotgun. Just because its an air rifle doesnt mean people are going to be irresponsible with it due to the lower power. I think that people who hold firearm licenses should be allowed purchase them. That way the sale will be regulated and they wont be just sold over the counter to anyone like in england.

Agreed, and maybe the guards would just put an add on to your existing permit if you know what i mean. So as the air rifle would be accounted for.

gunhappy_ie

The shortest answer (and I dont mean any offence by this) is: Dream on !

Sparks

bazza888 wrote: »

ithink its because a pellet gun can kill or seriously injure if you shoot someone in the wrong place with it

That's definitely possible in theory, if you hit a major blood vessel and left the wound untreated (there are case studies from abroad of major blood vessels being hit, but basic first aid prevented death). In practice though, the kind of pellet guns you see most often in Ireland would be more dangerous if you firmly grasped the muzzle end of the barrel with both hands and used it like a hurley. Don't forget, there are cases on the books of people trying to commit suicide using airguns, but no cases I'm aware of where they succeeded. Also, we're talking mostly about people mucking about with airguns in these kinds of accidents. Take a peek at the pony club, pentathlon or issf airgun matches sometime. Mucking about just doesn't happen there.

And airguns weren't licenced in Ireland up until 1964. The reason given at the time was to get them out of the hands of children (and note that they're more concerned with injuries there, not deaths - eye damage is about the most serious quoted), but since the law didn't actually prevent children from using them (section 2(4)(d) again), it was a nonsense to begin with.

Frankly, a ban on sales to under-18s (the exact same measure as now applies to airsoft) would have done exactly the same thing, and if we went to that system, it'd do a lot of good for all the shooting sports in the country, because airguns are the ideal starting point for training younger shooters, whether in rifle or pistol disciplines.

bazza888

ok maybe not kill then sparks but injure,itought a 20ftlb+ airgun could kill,im more talking of hunting guns,im guessing you are talking about the target ones? what sort of power do they run at sparks?

Sparks

Well, it'll go through soft tissue bazza, and it's a wadcutter pellet, so it's not going to be a pleasant experience, but unless you were desperately unlucky, you'd heal. And we've been using them in target shooting matches in Ireland for a good fifty years and we haven't exactly been noticing injuries every decade...

The hunting airguns, yes, different beastie, but even in the UK and EU where target airguns aren't licenced, hunting airguns are - anything above 16 foot pounds in the UK and anything above 7.5 joules everywhere else as you know - so having that kind of system here wouldn't be odd.

The target airguns in use in Ireland (by the pony club, pentathlon association and NTSA) are all ISSF types and all are under 7.5 joules of muzzle energy. You'll often see a small symbol on them (an F inside a pentagram) which is an inspection seal from the manufacturer certifying that they don't exceed that limit.

bazza888

ididnt mean they would be dangerous in the nhands of people using them at organised events like the pentatlon or target shooting,theres not many young lads going to walk in off a street and buy a set up like you have,as id imagine its very expensive.i was thinking more of lads buying hunting pellet guns for 150e or so.but if they were being used on a range for target shooting etc and were at the 7.5 limit you stated i could see it being done like they do in england,thats fair enough.id rather not have to pay 80e but as with everything im glad the more powerfull ones are not availible readily to some people.

Sparks

The problem's usually not the money though - it's the Gardai. Even in areas where you have a good firearms officer, the simple requirement to go through the licencing procedure causes a lot of people to just walk away and take up golf. Hell, my own folks were desperately worried when I first started shooting because of the idea that I'd have contact with the Gardai - they came from an area where that kind of thing was never, ever good!

If airguns were treated exactly the same as, say, recurve bows (which are a lot more dangerous), all our sports would be a lot better off.

bazza888

some good points being raised here it doesnt take alot to make an arrow thats deadly for a bow i suppose.its an iteresting debate,but as i said earlier idont think it will be changed anytime soon.

Sparks

Even your normal beginner's recurve bow with target arrows is pretty nasty if you have an accident bazza. They're very good on safety and you don't see accidents as a result, but hell, you don't see them from us either for the same reason but we have licencing anyways.

MC.ISF

Sparks wrote: »

The problem's usually not the money though - it's the Gardai. Even in areas where you have a good firearms officer, the simple requirement to go through the licencing procedure causes a lot of people to just walk away and take up golf. Hell, my own folks were desperately worried when I first started shooting because of the idea that I'd have contact with the Gardai - they came from an area where that kind of thing was never, ever good!

If airguns were treated exactly the same as, say, recurve bows (which are a lot more dangerous), all our sports would be a lot better off.

I remember many years ago when i were a young fella :rolleyes: being mad into shooting and hunting , obviously was too young to own a firearm ..At the age of 12 I went into a fishing shop in Temple bar and purchased a Recurve longbow with my confirmation money. I remember getting bet round the garden with it hahaha. I remember my father set up a target of plywood infront of an unused garden shed. The arrow had power to go through the plywood, through both sides of the garden shed and lodged itself into a tree behind. Out of interest I asked in my local firearms dealer shop a few weeks ago about the age limit for a bow. He said "as long as your old enough to pull the string" And here we are where we can buy a longbow with no age restrictions , yet an air rifle needs the same procedures as a centrefire rifle !

is it just me or is there something not right with the system

bazza888

the system is most definately not right!i have 2 firearms allready and it still takes weeks to license a an airrifle!!i put down 2000 pellets on the license i bet it will come back with 100 or 200 on it,even though they come in tins of 500:rolleyes: maybe ill be surprised and get 2000

rowa

The thing is it will never happen as the ptb are trying to kill shooting by slow strangulation, they are not going to give anything out that could be used to promote shooting or make life easier for us.
Air rifles are lethal , colonel sebastion moran tried to shoot sherlock holmes with one :P

Maveric_Jr

Sparks wrote: »

Frankly, a ban on sales to under-18s (the exact same measure as now applies to airsoft)

Just as a quick update, as an airsoft player myself the law is now that all airsoft rifles with a muzzle velocity of less than 328 fps ( 1 joule) can be bought by anyone over the age of 16, which I think is absolutely ridiculous.

eth0

Who is this ptb crowd?

there are many hobbies nowadays being oppressed. motorbiking being a recent example

rowa

eth0 wrote: »

Who is this ptb crowd?

there are many hobbies nowadays being oppressed. motorbiking being a recent example

Gardai , dept of justice , minister of justice etc.

Cass

eth0 wrote: »

Who is this ptb crowd?

Powers That Be. (as above for other names)


On a personal note i don't think i'd like unmonitored sale of air rifles/pistols for one simple reason. You know if anything were to happen involving someone with an air rifle it would be all over the news spouting off about someone with a "sniper rifle", and how long would it be before there is some knee jerk legislation AGAIN.


Ideally i would like to see;

• The age limit for air rifles reduced (ideally 12).
• An authorisation rather than license.
• Perhaps a declassification of air rifles under 7 or 12 ftlb as firearms.
• License/authorisation fee reduced to €40 for 3 years.
• Anyone with a firearms license to gain "automatic" authorisation for an air rifle. (You'd still apply, but it would follow the guidelines for a substitution timeframe rather than a full application).
• Anyone under 16 to be "sponsored" by an adult (over 18 - Parent/Guardian)
• Any rifle over the set limit would fall under the current legislation as is.

I'm not sure how practical some of the above are or would be, but i see nothing that would prevent them from being enacted. If young people were able to get into this style of shooting at a younger age it would spark (no pun) their interest in the sport, teach them firearm safety & handling, increase our pool of shooters to qualify on a larger scale in more sports, increase others awareness that rifles/firearms are not some object to be feared and hated for no reason, etc.

I would also like to know why there was not more of a debate when these measures were being written for air rifles. Why someone did not speak up and inform the PTB of the abilities/limitations of an air rifle. It would seem as though they were overlooked/ignored, and as a result of the steps required to buy and license an air rifle most people seem to opt for a .22lr or similar knowing that security, license fees, etc are the same irrespective of their caliber. I mean other than the price of the gun if i were to license a .308 or an air rifle the €80 license, €200 for a gun safe, etc are the same. However unlike a .308 the cost of these requirements can sometimes equal the price of the air rifle. It would be akin to paying €3,500 for a license and safe if i had went for a .308 rifle.

Anyway, a bit late for "waxing philosophical" so i'll leave it at that.

Sparks

Ezridax wrote: »

I would also like to know why there was not more of a debate when these measures were being written for air rifles.

Can't speak as to 1964, but...

Sparks wrote: »

The idea of raising the muzzle energy threshold for airguns from the current 1 joule to the 12 ft-lb level of the UK or the 7-joule level of the German system was brought up, and again wasn't shot down - there's no perceived problem with things like paintball (and I made the point that paintball markers have twice the muzzle energy of an air rifle so if they're okay, we should be too, and I pointed out the problems of bringing in air rifles for competitions). However, while this is a possible thing that may happen (in, say, the Misc.Provisions Bill) it needs to be discussed at FCP level first. Des Crofton made the point that while this is definitely something we should be looking to do, practical limits on people may lead to the FCP having short-term, medium-term and long-term goals, and this may not make it to the short-term list

flanum

I own an Air Arms s14 xtra Fac .22 air rifle... it chronos at 36 ft/lb.. its not too far short of a .22lr. ... i get bunnys headshot no bother up to 100 yds (carefull dialling of scope etc ).. i wouldnt like to see the laws relaxing on this power of air rifle , but yes to several suggestions above for sub 12ft/lbs guns. FAC in UK requires "Firearm certificate"! (edit to add.. actually .22lr has waay more ft/lbs punch, but realistic distances for both are up to 100 yds)!

johngalway

I like the idea that if you already have a firearms license that you could buy an air gun. I don't think they should be unlicensed though. I'm not gone on the gun club idea, or any other club idea, like Groucho Marx said

bazza888

quick question for the airgun guys here,can you buy pellets over the internet from ebay or the like,or would you need an import license etc the same as for normal ammo

MC.ISF

bazza888 wrote: »

quick question for the airgun guys here,can you buy pellets over the internet from ebay or the like,or would you need an import license etc the same as for normal ammo

Not a chance. In england they even post air rifles its perfectly legal but here A tin of pellets is the same as a box of bullets or cartridges. I think Duffys in Galway do sell over the internet but you need to send them a copy of your license and they deliver via a secure courier. Alot of hassle in my opinion. As for buying and having them delivered through the post from ebay or somewhere in england you can say goodbye to ever owning a firearm again.

Sparks

Not actually sure bazza - technically, they're legally ammo, but they're also fishing weights and tyre balancing weights. Personally though, I just buy a sleeve from my local RFD and don't think much about it after that.

Though it's probably getting to the point where I should (but that way, madness lies...)

bazza888

just iv seen very few hunting pellets in any rfd locally a few odd tins of eley wasp and stuff like that theres not half the choice there is in the uk

Sparks

True - most airguns in Ireland, well most of the modern ones in the ROI anyway, are probably target ones.

wotzgoingon

I didn't even know you needed a licence for them. That means i have one illegally. I've a pistol thats is spring loaded and fires small metal bb's. i bought it in Wales back in 2004 or 05 in a gun shop.

Sparks

Yup, fraid so. The Gardai crack down on those from time to time as well, people would bring them back from spain or wherever they were on their holidays.

wotzgoingon

Sparks wrote: »

Yup, fraid so. The Gardai crack down on those from time to time as well, people would bring them back from spain or wherever they were on their holidays.

I think i will take my chances and not get a licence. I doubt they would take it too serious if they found you with one. Its just been left in the room for the past few years not even been used. Now i know you need a licence i will be more carefull about taking it out in public.

eth0

wotzgoingon wrote: »

I think i will take my chances and not get a licence. I doubt they would take it too serious if they found you with one. Its just been left in the room for the past few years not even been used. Now i know you need a licence i will be more carefull about taking it out in public.

I reckon there are laods such guns in the country from people who brought them over completely oblivious to the amount of bureaucracy associated with them here.

Sparks

/facepalm


(a) you just confessed to having one and knowing it's illegal on a public forum.
(b) it's not worth it if you get caught.

Seriously, take it to the station, and either hand it it or apply for a licence for it.

eth0

Sparks wrote: »

/facepalm


(a) you just confessed to having one and knowing it's illegal on a public forum.
(b) it's not worth it if you get caught.

Seriously, take it to the station, and either hand it it or apply for a licence for it.

I know you're a mod and are therefore supposed to take the moral/legal high ground but his chances of getting caught are almost nil.

Myself I know an 11 year old who has one. No license either, as well as several more people who have them without license. but I could be bluffing just like wotzgoingon might be, you just wouldn't be sure.

Sparks

eth0 wrote: »

I know you're a mod and are therefore supposed to take the moral/legal high ground but his chances of getting caught are almost nil.

So's the odds of you winning the lotto, but people still play the thing all the time...

Besides which, for pete's sake, Rule 8.

eth0

Sparks wrote: »

So's the odds of you winning the lotto, but people still play the thing all the time...

Besides which, for pete's sake, Rule 8.

Ah that reminds me I forgot to buy a ticket

Too late now though I'd say

Cass

Bluffing or not there is to be no discussion of illegal activities on this or any forum. So any more "bravado" talk about not having a license for a firearm and/or not intending to get one will be removed.

Abide by the rules of the forum or refrain from using it.

First and only warning on the matter.

wotzgoingon

Do you need a licence for the airsoft guns.
My cousin brought back a pellet gun rifle from france a few years ago that fired the metal bb's and he never had a licence either but he sold it recently to a friend of his and i doubt his friend got a licence either.
I still dont know why you need a licence for them in this country when you can buy them in most if not all other european countries.

Cass

A pellet gun with a muzzle velocity exceeding 328 feet per second or 1 joule of energy is classed as a firearm, and needs a license.

As for RIF (realistic imitation firearms) you must be over 16 to own one.

Airsoft forum.

MC.ISF

I can see why there would be issues licensing air pistols , Some of them look like real handguns and do indeed have the power to do serious damage as well as being easy to conceal and transport. I think they should be strict on ownership here and used if a member of a target club only. But an air rifle even though higher in power and alot bigger in size has alot of uses for vermin control and in many cases would be a lot safer than a .22lr

The nephew arrived down a few weeks ago with some sort of gas powered pellet gun for this army thing he takes part in . I think its called skirmishing or somethin. I tell you somethin.... If I had one of them pointed at me it would be impossible to tell it wasnt a real handgun, It was made of full metal and the slide moved on top. When you fired it the slide blows back and loads another pellet like the real deal. In fairness does it make more sense to legalise them type of guns where ANYBODY can get their hands on them .. or make the law more slack on firearms owners simply adding an air rifle to an existing certificate ? We have to prove over and over again that we have valid reason to own a firearm and that we are not insane , have photographs on file etc... I have a question , Is there any way that we as a shooting community can get together, petition or something that we have an adjustment to our laws? I think anyone that owns a gun has a story of how theyve been intimidated or given some cock and bull story by the Gardai and have been left waiting and waiting and waiting only to be told their application has been "lost" or "mislaid " .

Its 2011 and I think its time for a drastic change to these procedures. Reading different posts similar to this on boards in the past few days has got my blood boiling and I would like somebody to correct me if Im wrong but no matter when you log on there is ALWAYS somebody that has a recent post about hassle with a new or existing license. This should not be happening. The Gardai should be doing their job :mad: but yet why change the habit of a lifetime lads ?

eth0

So is there any way we could convince the government to change the law for pellet guns & paintball guns so the licensing process is not as difficult or expensive?

MC.ISF

eth0 wrote: »

So is there any way we could convince the government to change the law for pellet guns & paintball guns so the licensing process is not as difficult or expensive?

+1

Longranger

For the love of god,the bloody gun is illegal! Either licence it or get rid of it. It's people like you who cause legitimate shooters so much trouble so please sort it out or stop blathering on about it here! We have enough problems as it is without another person who won't heed the law we try so hard to stick to so we can enjoy out sport. Sorry mods if I'm talking out of turn but this is the kind of ****e that causes half of our problems!

Sparks

wotzgoingon wrote: »

Do you need a licence for the airsoft guns.
My cousin brought back a pellet gun rifle from france a few years ago that fired the metal bb's and he never had a licence either but he sold it recently to a friend of his and i doubt his friend got a licence either.
I still dont know why you need a licence for them in this country when you can buy them in most if not all other european countries.

If it fired metal bb's, it wasn't airsoft (they use 6mm plastic balls - put a metal bb in one and it would barely get out of the barrel). So yes, it needs a licence. And if your mate's friend was under 16, he'd have been breaking the law with the sale even if it had been an airsoft (the law refers to both commercial and private sales).

Cass

eth0 wrote: »

............ to change the law for pellet guns & paintball guns so the licensing process ...............

What license issue for paintball guns?

Sparks

MC.ISF wrote: »

The nephew arrived down a few weeks ago with some sort of gas powered pellet gun for this army thing he takes part in . I think its called skirmishing or somethin. I tell you somethin.... If I had one of them pointed at me it would be impossible to tell it wasnt a real handgun

And that's why he'd be done for assault in the same way as if he had actually pointed a real handgun at you (assuming you pressed charges, that is). Which is why a new law isn't necessary - the old one already brings the full weight of the law to bear, a new law wouldn't give you anything extra.