British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Biggins

Christ - are we having this thread again?
I'm outa here.

Exits stage left...

Micky Dolenz

Biggins wrote: »

Christ - are we having this thread again?
I'm outa here.

Exits stage left...

Cheerio.

gurramok

For Paws wrote: »

The 'Poppy' is a small, artificial flower given to those who contribute financially to the collections for The Royal British Legion.
The Legion is a charity providing financial, social and emotional support to those who have served or are currently serving in the British Armed Forces, and their dependants.

This part for the pro-poppy brigade is the reason why its rejected. British soldiers welfare should be supported by the British govt, not an Irish issue. And thats before anyone mentions NI or wars

Toby Take a Bow

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

And the battle of Britain.

Nope. Battle of Britain didn't prevent you speaking German.

Trotter

No (I'm Irish)

My great grandfather and his father fought in WW1 because the men around them were joining. None of them had much money and it was the chance to send some cash home to the family.

From listening carefully to stories my Grandfather has told me, I honestly think that we can't transplant today's standards, knowledge or situation onto a day in 1913/14 and say its comparable.

Most joined for money, food, clothing, and many younger men for a sense of adventure. I doubt any of them knew what they were actually getting into.

Micky Dolenz

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Nope. Battle of Britain didn't prevent you speaking German.

If Nazi Germany had taken Britain, we would have folded, neutral or not.

I've lived and worked in Britain, they are a grand ould bunch, well certainly the ones I meet on a daily basis. I can acknowledge the brave things their people did and the not so good things.

I'm worldly like that.

Tiocfaidh Armani

No, but you personally wanna do it, fire away.

Judgement Day

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

Nope. Battle of Britain didn't prevent you speaking German.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion? If Britain had been overrun do you really think Hitler would have left neutral Ireland to its own devices? Maybe he would have, and installed a puppet FF/Nazi government instead of wasting resources invading. :rolleyes:

Toby Take a Bow

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If Nazi Germany had taken Britain, we would have folded, neutral or not.

I've lived and worked in Britain, they are a grand ould bunch, well certainly the ones I meet on a daily basis. I can acknowledge the brave things their people did and the not so good things.

I'm worldly like that.

Oh, so can I. I, too, am worldly.

You still wouldn't be speaking German though.

Chuck Stone

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If Nazi Germany had taken Britain, we would have folded, neutral or not.

I only get involved in conjecture when someone else kicks it off because it's fun and you can make up the alternative future that suits you.

Had the Germans taken Britian they may or may not have invaded Ireland. Even if they did how long would the occupation have lasted? 2/3 years?

The Soviets were kicking ass in the east and would probably have captured Berlin by perhaps 1947/8 if the Americans didn't have the UK as a launching point for D-Day.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If Nazi Germany had taken Britain, we would have folded, neutral or not.

I've lived and worked in Britain, they are a grand ould bunch, well certainly the ones I meet on a daily basis. I can acknowledge the brave things their people did and the not so good things.

I'm worldly like that.

Brits as people are the same as us. We're not British though, don't see why we should commemorate people who died for them. Going down that road we should commemorate the Irish who fought to free America. It's silly really.

Jimoslimos

Judgement Day wrote: »

How on earth do you come to that conclusion? If Britain had been overrun do you really think Hitler would have left neutral Ireland to its won devices? Maybe he would have, and installed a puppet FF/Nazi government instead of wasting resources invading. :rolleyes:

Oblig FF/IMF/EU reference here if anyone wants it;)

Toby Take a Bow

Judgement Day wrote: »

How on earth do you come to that conclusion? If Britain had been overrun do you really think Hitler would have left neutral Ireland to its won devices? Maybe he would have, and installed a puppet FF/Nazi government instead of wasting resources invading. :rolleyes:

If it was in his interests to take over Ireland, then he might have installed a puppet government.

The battle of Britain saved Britain (and perhaps Ireland) for four years. Germany lost the war the day they invaded the USSR.

Dionysus

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If Nazi Germany had taken Britain, we would have folded, neutral or not.

I've lived and worked in Britain, they are a grand ould bunch, well certainly the ones I meet on a daily basis. I can acknowledge the brave things their people did and the not so good things.

I'm worldly like that.

And one of the most odd things about the supposedly "international" commemoration symbol which is the red poppy is that the people who gave most in fighting Nazi Germany, namely the Russians and their conquered lands in the Soviet Union where up to 20 million people died in WW II, are totally ignored. In contrast, around 40,000 people died in the Battle of Britain and Blitz combined.

If people want to commemorate the dead of that war inclusively, they could create some genuinely inclusive symbol rather than contending that the poppy is an inclusive international commemoration, when it's clearly a national symbol commemorating only those who fought in British forces.

AnamGlas

Wouldn't supporting British war fatalaties be opposing those who fought for our freedom?

A Dub in Glasgo

You will find the same arguments here

White Poppy for Peace

For Paws

No (I'm Irish)

gurramok wrote: »

This part for the pro-poppy brigade is the reason why its rejected. British soldiers welfare should be supported by the British govt, not an Irish issue. And thats before anyone mentions NI or wars

Any particular reason why the words 'and their dependants' escaped being emboldened by you ?

Should the Republic not support the welfare of non-Irish soldiers, and their dependants, who serve or have served in the Irish Army ?

Tiocfaidh Armani

AnamGlas wrote: »

Wouldn't supported British war fatalaties be opposing those who fought for our freedom?

Eh?

Should the Republic not support the welfare of non-Irish soldiers, and their dependants, who serve or have served in the Irish Army ?

Bit of a daft point that.:rolleyes:

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

And one of the most odd things about the supposedly "international" commemoration symbol which is the red poppy is that the people who gave most in fighting Nazi Germany, namely the Russians and their conquered lands in the Soviet Union where up to 20 million people died in WW II, are totally ignored. In contrast, around 40,000 people died in the Battle of Britain and Blitz combined.

If people want to commemorate the dead of that war inclusively, they could create some genuinely inclusive symbol rather than contending that the poppy is an inclusive international commemoration, when it's clearly a national symbol commemorating only those who fought in British forces.

Totally ignored? That is to do with Russia and they celebrate the war effort. We celebrate ours.

gurramok

For Paws wrote: »

Any particular reason why the words 'and their dependants' escaped being emboldened by you ?

Should the Republic not support the welfare of non-Irish soldiers, and their dependants, who serve or have served in the Irish Army ?

Did the Irish state employ them? No. Its up to their employers to support them in hard times, that is the UK govt. Likewise for any soldiers serving in other foreign armies.

You just put a new emphasis on the Irish welfare state, yes lets support a foreign army and its dependents!

Niles

No (I'm Irish)

FetchTheGin wrote: »

I would rather not commemorate an empire responsible for the destruction of my country and oppression of my ancestors.

Neither would I, it's the individual Irish people who fought that I think should be the focus of the commemoration. If that's the case then I have no problem.

AnamGlas wrote: »

Wouldn't supporting British war fatalaties be opposing those who fought for our freedom?

Not necessarily, it's not as though the British used Irish regiments during Easter 1916.

Galwayguy35

If someone wants to wear the poppy it wouldnt bother me but i would never wear one myself. Im Irish not British and its a British symbol.

ejmaztec

I'm sure that Dionysus is in here somewhere.

A Dub in Glasgo

Niles wrote: »

Not necessarily, it's not as though the British used Irish regiments during Easter 1916.

The fight for Irish independence did not start or end with the Rising

Badgermonkey

No (I'm Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

Ah Badgermonkey, I knew I forgot somebody in the op.

Thanks, weren't they British though?

Perhaps I've been naturalised in absentia for services to the Crown.

I just lack that chip on the shoulder that'd allow me to conveniently blame much of this nations own failings on 800 years of blah blah blah.

That guff has always smacked of bullsh1t to me.

Dionysus wrote: »

I also have quite a number of other regular targets - Ahern; publicans; social injustice, for starters - but you appear to be, well, "less sensitive" to them. Hmmm.

I've read some, also agree with some of what you have to say.

Unfortunately, you often appear unable to exclude some piddling allusion which betrays an anti-British bias, whether that be something as trifling as someones plummy accent or the fact Tony O'Reilly accepted a knighthood from the Queen - when those matters are of little or no relevance to the topic under discussion.

Just seems to me, some of what you put out there is rendered of less worth by that small kind of carry on.

Perhaps those topics above also dip under the radar, as they're less prone to provoke the oft-toxic, mean-spirited and dismally predictable bicker-fests, which stem from so many threads in AH which touch upon matters Anglo-Irish.

charlemont

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

And the battle of Britain.

Your knowledge of history is outstanding :rolleyes:


Although if the BoB was lost I'm sure Hitler would have needed our treaty ports but I cant see the jackboots stopping us speaking English, anyhow Hitler didn't want to subjugate Britain, He basically wanted them to F off and stop interfering in his stupid plans, So any notions of peoples on the British Isles speaking German as a 1st language are far fetched.

Niles

No (I'm Irish)

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The fight for Irish independence did not start or end with the Rising

I was just using that as an example, but my point still stands. Commemorating Irish people who fought in WWI does not equate to opposing those who fought for Irish freedom. Nor does it necessarily equate to supporting the British Army in general, just the Irish people who served in it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Niles wrote: »

I was just using that as an example, but my point still stands. Commemorating Irish people who fought in WWI does not equate to opposing those who fought for Irish freedom. Nor does it necessarily equate to supporting the British Army in general, just the Irish people who served in it.

The red poppy is about more than WW1

Fratton Fred

OP, I don't expect the Irish to commemorate British war dead, although I would expect them to have some respect for their own.

The only thing I ask (and dare I say expect) is that those who do wish to respect British war dead are shown a bit of respect, something which is a tall order possibly for the OP.

gurramok

charlemont wrote: »

So any notions of peoples on the British Isles speaking German as a 1st language are far fetched.

Yeh, the English, Scots and Welsh wouldn't stand for it in the British isles. On the otherhand, the Irish isle...