British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

Kranium

No (I'm Irish)

most people here dont really have an issue with the fact its British , it has more to do with the fact tis fairly tacky

Caoimhín

Sure do what you want, i certainly couldnt care less.

Morlar

I voted no. I think the Irish who fought in World War One deserve to be remembered and honoured, but I don't support the wearing of the poppy.

Dionysus

Nevore wrote: »

Sure It was practically the British and Irish empire there for a while.

Yeah, sort of like it was the British and Irish famine there for a while. At least according to Fine Gael's Avril Doyle.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

Keith! Welcome to the thread.:D

Ah, the 16th Irish, otherwise known as Kitchener's Mob - would that be any connection to one Horatio Kitchener, the British commander responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of women and children in concentration camps during the Second Boer War? Are he and his allies really worth "commemorating"?

I don't see what that has to do with the 16th Irish division.

Dionysus

Kranium wrote: »

I dont like the idea of contestants on Xfactor having to wear them

It's not just X Factor. Dara Ó Bríain was talking with Marian Finucane just over a year ago saying he got a lot of abuse for not wearing one on tv and would probably end up wearing it because of that. Jon Snow was forced to make a stand against what he called "poppy fascism" last year again.

Chuck Stone

I don't agree with glorifying mass slaughter.

Da_Doc

Here is another poll

Should Dionysus grow up and stop worrying which dead people the Irish decide to commemorate
a) Yes
b) No
c) Yes (but unlikely to happen because it is his usual anti-british rubbish)
D) No (because I cant get over the past and move on)

gurramok

Judgement Day wrote: »

The poppies aren't doled out free and the funds raised by their sale go towards ex-servicemen and their dependents, so it's more than an act of commemoration. Anyway, I fail to see why anybody should object as it's not compulsory.

Funds from the sale of the poppy commemorates British Army personnel who were on duty on Bloody Sunday for example as well as those in Iraq etc. So emphatic no from myself, we have our own ceremony for those who died in WW1.(as WW1 is heavily mentioned)

LH Pathe

Can't happen / won't happen.

Poppy forum >>>>>>>

Judgement Day

Dionysus wrote: »

Keith! Welcome to the thread.:D

Ah, the 16th Irish, otherwise known as Kitchener's Mob - would that be any connection to one Horatio Kitchener, the British commander responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of women and children in concentration camps during the Second Boer War? Are he and his allies really worth "commemorating"?

Would be that be Lord Kitchener from Listowel? Why don't you claim him as Irish?

Chuck Stone

Da_Doc wrote: »

D) No (because I cant get over the past and move on)

I presume you would have the same opinion of people who balk at the idea of MMcG becoming president.

Dionysus

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see what that has to do with the 16th Irish division.

The person who established the 16th Irish Division was Horatio Kitchener. The person who was commander of the British Forces during the Second Boer War was the same Horatio Kitchener. During that "war", Kitchener made the decision to continue Roberts' scorched earth policy against the Boers and followed this up by imprisoning tens of thousands of Boer women and children in concentration camps. There they were kept for over two years, where tens of thousands died before the camps were closed down in late 1601 following Emily Hobhouse's famous campaign against them. Kitchener knew people were dying in huge numbers, yet he kept the camps going as part of his policy in defeating the Boers and securing the massive diamond and gold resources which they had. All of which does not bode well for the "morality" of whatever the 16th Irish Division was fighting for.

Da_Doc

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I presume you would have the same opinion of people who balk at the idea of MMcG becoming president.

Yup but just as much as i'd balk at the idea of Dana or David Norris being president

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

The person who established the 16th Irish Division was Horatio Kitchener. The person who was commander of the British Forces during the Second Boer War was the same Horatio Kitchener. During that "war", Kitchener made the decision to continue Roberts' scorched earth policy against the Boers and followed this up by imprisoning tens of thousands of Boer women and children in concentration camps. There they were kept for over two years, where tens of thousands died before the camps were closed down in late 1601 following Emily Hobhouse's famous campaign against them. Kitchener knew people were dying in huge numbers, yet he kept the camps going as part of his policy in defeating the Boers and securing the massive diamond and gold resources which they had. All of which does not bode well for the "morality" of whatever the 16th Irish Division was fighting for.

But the people of the 16th Irish division didn't do that. I think it is completely irrelevant.

Dionysus

Judgement Day wrote: »

Would be that be Lord Kitchener from Listowel? Why don't you claim him as Irish?

Why would I? I only know he was born in Ireland to English parents. I don't know whether he was Irish. Do you know? I do know he was a British general fighting for the imperial power of the British state. Or, as Keith Jeffrey put it: 'Kitchener was only coincidentally Irish, born on a farm recently purchased by his wholly English parents' (An Irish empire?: aspects of Ireland and the British Empire (Manchester, 1996)

Jimoslimos

charlemont wrote: »

No, My family members didn't die in the fields of France for the British Empire, They died in those fields to put food on the table..

This^^^

Before anyone starts getting misty-eyed over the soldiers fighting for a noble and just cause, it should be remembered these were young men simply trying to make a living - not much of an economy at the time other than the war one.

Lots of brave Brits fought and died during the wars? Yes of course, but then so did a lot of not-so-brave, and downright evil men did too. On both sides. At times of war you can't be overly selective in who you choose to fight your battles. Maybe the Irish view is tempered in the fact we seemed to get the worst (Black&Tans, etc) whereas we never saw the honour and valour of those who died in Europe.

Another thing that really irks me is the automatic assumption (even today) that soldiers are 'heroes'. Moreso than unarmed civilians across europe murdered by both sides during the two wars? At least in the army you're equipped with a weapon and surrounded by a batallion of men also bearing arms. Or you could stay at home and try protect your family - no glory though - plus people calling you coward/deserter:rolleyes:

As for the poppy, if irish people want to wear it to remember their deceased in the wars go ahead. No problem there. My problem with it is that it in Britain it has become politicised and more a symbol of glory than one reminding people of the horrors of war.

pragmatic1

No. We can commemorate the men who died in another way.

Badgermonkey

No (I'm Irish)

Dionysus wrote: »

Take it away oh fine, erudite denizens of Afterhours.

OK, here goes.

Get a blog - It'll allow you expand on your weekly philippic and fully indulge your twin preoccupations with Perfidious Albion and Sir Tony O'Reilly.

Micky Dolenz

I salute anyone who prevented me and mine speaking German.

For Paws

No (I'm Irish)

The 'Poppy' is a small, artificial flower given to those who contribute financially to the collections for The Royal British Legion.
The Legion is a charity providing financial, social and emotional support to those who have served or are currently serving in the British Armed Forces, and their dependants.

The Legion fight nearly 36,000 ongoing War Disablement Pension cases for war veterans and make around 300,000 welfare and friendship visits every year.
Ongoing Legion campaigns include calls for more research into: Gulf War syndrome and compensation for its victims; upgrading of War Pensions; the extension of endowment mortgage compensation for British military personnel serving overseas; and better support for British military personnel resettling into civilian life.

The wearing of the 'Poppy' indicates that you support the aims and campaigns of the Legion. It does not necessarily indicate that you support war, or the aims and ambitions of those who start and engage in wars.

The Legion's motto is 'Service, not self'.

Jimoslimos

KeithAFC wrote: »

But the people of the 16th Irish division didn't do that. I think it is completely irrelevant.

Strike me down, for once I agree with Keith AFC. This IS irrelevant to the current discussion.

Toby Take a Bow

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I salute anyone who prevented me and mine speaking German.

The only person who prevented you speaking German was bad teachers in your secondary school.

talkinyite

'The Irish' implies the Irish nation/people, so no... and the British government should pay for their soldiers care and stop putting the responsibility on the British public.

Dionysus

Badgermonkey wrote: »

OK, here goes.

Get a blog - It'll allow you expand your weekly philippic and fully indulge your twin preoccupations with Perfidious Albion and Sir Tony O'Reilly.

Ah Badgermonkey, I knew I forgot somebody in the op. I also have quite a number of other regular targets - Ahern; publicans; social injustice, for starters - but you appear to be, well, "less sensitive" to them. Hmmm.

Chuck Stone

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I salute anyone who prevented me and mine speaking German.

You're an Irish person who's written that in English.

Micky Dolenz

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

The only person who prevented you speaking German was bad teachers in your secondary school.

And the battle of Britain.

stovelid

Not really fair to have a little dig at other posters in the OP when the question could just as easily be phrased more politely.

Many Irish people fought in the British army. If people want to remember their relatives who died in the great wars, that's fine by me. I can see why republicans or people, say with relatives in the north may not like it but for me I can accept that remembering those who fought in the great wars - for whatever reasons - is not necessarily supporting the British Army per se or their recent actions in the north.

I take the point about glorifying war but people are just honouring dead relatives a lot of the time.

Micky Dolenz

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You're an Irish person who's written that in English.

Would you prefer if I wrote in Irish?

Kranium

No (I'm Irish)

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Would you prefer if I wrote in Irish?

no we all know how one uses google translate