British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

drumaneen wrote: »

If you don't see a street seller you can call in to the RBL ROI office at 26 South Frederick Street, Dublin 2 who will be glad to help.

ALSO BY POST:The nice peeps at the Limerick RBL will post you poppies for the cost of the postage and any donation to the Irish Poppy Appeal using their PayPal facility.

I'm in London so I don't think I'll have much difficulty this year

Nodin

getz wrote: »

dont thank me i quite enjoyed it,

You still haven;t explained quite what you "enjoyed".
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75103798&postcount=165

wingsof daun

The empire is long gone so let them commemorate because they are commemorating nothing.

ejmaztec

wingsof daun wrote: »

The empire is long gone so let them commemorate because they are commemorating nothing.

It's not the empire that's being commemorated.

jameswburke

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Niles wrote: »

I was just using that as an example, but my point still stands. Commemorating Irish people who fought in WWI does not equate to opposing those who fought for Irish freedom. Nor does it necessarily equate to supporting the British Army in general, just the Irish people who served in it.

I agree.

speedboatchase

Simple answer: If they want to. I wouldn't bat an eyelid and I'm certainly not going to accost a stranger on the street for doing so

Wile E. Coyote

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The fact that most of the country has no idea that the Irish army is carrying out UN sanctioned work in Chad, Afghanistan and Chad is frankly shameful.

Don't forget Chad. They're there as well. :P

deisedave

Do people think the british commemorate the soldiers who died fighting for Irish freedom. Basically Irish died fighting for the British fair enough but many more died fighting the Irish trying to not give us our freedom.

Lollipops23

No (I'm Irish)

My ancestors fought in WW1, my Grandfather (different side) fought for the RAF. I'm proud of them, not because they fought for the King/Queen, but because they were all extremely brave men. Just as the lads in Iraq are brave.

I really don't get all this animosity towards the poppy thing, I think it's a really nice way to commemorate those who died in battle.

StephenHendry

we already commemorate by having memorials to those who died in the war without being obliged to wear the poppy. i have no problem with people who do but by not wearing one is not necessarily showing disrespect to those who died

Lollipops23

No (I'm Irish)

StephenHendry wrote: »

we already commemorate by having memorials to those who died in the war without being obliged to wear the poppy. i have no problem with people who do but by not wearing one is not necessarily showing disrespect to those who died

Nobody is obliged to wear one, even in the UK. I just don't get people getting their knickers in a twist over it. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if it became commonplace here, we've ignored our war-dead for far too long IMHO.

westdub15

No problem with the Poppy in Britain, although the way its used at every chance by politicians attempting to show their 'patriotism' for three weeks before the eleventh of November is another issue...

Anyway, the problem with wearing the Poppy is that funds raised from the sale of the Poppy goes to the British Legion, an organization which provides support for former British veterans. A noble cause, however, this means you are supporting members of the British armed forces that served on this Island. Your money could be providing support for some of the men who participated in Bloody Sunday and countless other murders in the north. It may also tend the graves of Black and Tans who did not exactly distinguish themselves in Ireland.

Many brave Irish men (and women) from the North and South served with great distinction in the British Army, we should be proud of these and honor them but the Poppy is not the way to do it. It has been politicized by both sides of the divide. I would gladly bear an Irish Poppy provided its funds went to support the people of this Island.

Judgement Day

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My ancestors fought in WW1, my Grandfather (different side) fought for the RAF. I'm proud of them, not because they fought for the King/Queen, but because they were all extremely brave men. Just as the lads in Iraq are brave.

I really don't get all this animosity towards the poppy thing, I think it's a really nice way to commemorate those who died in battle.

It's a seasonal pastime here on Boards. :rolleyes:

Similar thread from 2002 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=636958

and 2004 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2062153

westdub15

The men who fight in Iraq are no braver than you or me. They are doing a job that was probably the only one available to them on their council estates. Its what they signed up for, in WW1 and WW2 they were fighting for their country and freedom in general that should be honored, what are they fighting for in Iraq?

It wasn't me!

westdub15 wrote: »

The men who fight in Iraq are no braver than you or me. They are doing a job that was probably the only one available to them on their council estates. Its what they signed up for, in WW1 and WW2 they were fighting for their country and freedom in general that should be honored, what are they fighting for in Iraq?

So you've definitely got the nads to go about your day knowing there are hundreds of people trying to shoot and blow you up on a constant basis? No braver? My hole.

westdub15

They don't get a choice, once you sign up that's whats expected of you. For the record I have friends in the Irish Army and I wouldn't think they're much braver than me.

It wasn't me!

Your point about them not having other options is also horseshít, at a time when the BA is at max capacity or downsizing, the competition to get in is tough. It's not some sort of social dumping ground. If you don't think professional soldiers are braver than you, you've completely failed to grasp the mental strength required to go out day after day under threat of death and do your job properly.

Jimoslimos

westdub15 wrote: »

The men who fight in Iraq are no braver than you or me. They are doing a job that was probably the only one available to them on their council estates. Its what they signed up for, in WW1 and WW2 they were fighting for their country and freedom in general that should be honored, what are they fighting for in Iraq?

For the most part those men fighting in WWI & II were doing it as a job too, a way of supporting their family because there wasn't much other paid work at the time.

But yes I do agree the supposed 'bravery' of soldiers is grossly exaggerated, especially in the US and UK.

westdub15

Competition to get in is tough at the moment because of the recession, the traditional recruitment ground is and always has been the vast council estates throughout the country. I have a lot of respect for British soldiers but building them up to be supermen or constantly referring to them as heroes rings of fascism tbh. How does joining the Army turn an otherwise normal man into a hero? They mold you into a machine and drill responses into you in training. That does not make anyone braver than another person.

Fratton Fred

Jimoslimos wrote: »

For the most part those men fighting in WWI & II were doing it as a job too, a way of supporting their family because there wasn't much other paid work at the time.

In Ireland yes, but in both wars the vast majority of people that fought were conscripted.

You never had conscription in Ireland, which is why wearing a poppy is thought of differently in England, Wales and Scotland. It is about remembering the Joe Soap that was called up and the sacrifices they made.

ejmaztec

westdub15 wrote: »

Competition to get in is tough at the moment because of the recession, the traditional recruitment ground is and always has been the vast council estates throughout the country. I have a lot of respect for British soldiers but building them up to be supermen or constantly referring to them as heroes rings of fascism tbh. How does joining the Army turn an otherwise normal man into a hero? They mold you into a machine and drill responses into you in training. That does not make anyone braver than another person.

I wouldn't imagine that any cowards would volunteer to join any army anywhere on the planet, unless it was the Salvation Army.

Fratton Fred

westdub15 wrote: »

Competition to get in is tough at the moment because of the recession, the traditional recruitment ground is and always has been the vast council estates throughout the country. I have a lot of respect for British soldiers but building them up to be supermen or constantly referring to them as heroes rings of fascism tbh. How does joining the Army turn an otherwise normal man into a hero? They mold you into a machine and drill responses into you in training. That does not make anyone braver than another person.

That's horse**** to be honest.

The majority of soldiers come from normal working class backgrounds because the majority of people have normal working class backgrounds.

You could argue that the normal recruiting ground for a construction company or manufacturing company is the same place.

Leftist

Our country is an embarrasment those who died in the world wars. Fighting Nazism or previously dying in trenches hoping we would get home rule.
But because ff and the church systematically lied through children's education we have a nation of mouth breathers than see aknowledging this history as some kind of treachery. Raised by fools.

westdub15

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's horse**** to be honest.

The majority of soldiers come from normal working class backgrounds because the majority of people have normal working class backgrounds.

You could argue that the normal recruiting ground for a construction company or manufacturing company is the same place.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmdfence/63/6306.htm

41. There is a perception that the Army recruits most of its soldiers from the least privileged socio-economic groups. MoD argues that there is little evidence to substantiate that view; but this is, at least in part, because currently MoD does not collect data on recruits' socio-economic background.[72] However, MoD did provide us with the results of a survey relating to Army recruits from the Cardiff area between 1998 and 2000. That study found that the majority of recruits came from a 'broken home' or 'deprived background' and had left school with no qualifications.[73] Lieutenant Colonel Strutt, who produced a paper on bullying and culture shock in the Infantry, reported 32 per cent of recruits come from poor housing conditions and 45 per cent come from 'broken homes'.[74] Professor Wessely told us that some members of the Armed Forces who 'are quite clearly risky', and may come from 'somewhat dubious backgrounds', nevertheless the vast majority of them seem to do well and the military actually does very well by them.'[75] He added 'I know that is not the purpose of the Army, but it is a side effect of the Army; it does address a socially excluded group which very few other people can tackle'.[76]

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

westdub15 wrote: »

No problem with the Poppy in Britain, although the way its used at every chance by politicians attempting to show their 'patriotism' for three weeks before the eleventh of November is another issue...

Anyway, the problem with wearing the Poppy is that funds raised from the sale of the Poppy goes to the British Legion, an organization which provides support for former British veterans. A noble cause, however, this means you are supporting members of the British armed forces that served on this Island. Your money could be providing support for some of the men who participated in Bloody Sunday and countless other murders in the north. It may also tend the graves of Black and Tans who did not exactly distinguish themselves in Ireland.

Many brave Irish men (and women) from the North and South served with great distinction in the British Army, we should be proud of these and honor them but the Poppy is not the way to do it. It has been politicized by both sides of the divide. I would gladly bear an Irish Poppy provided its funds went to support the people of this Island.

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

Morlar

getz wrote: »

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

Is wearing of the poppy not also in honour of the bloody sunday paras and all members of the british army who have shot, maimed and killed scores of Irish people for generations (going back to the War of Independence up to recent years ) ?

Tiocfaidh Armani

getz wrote: »

funds from the sale of the poppy do go in supporting irish families in the republic,

If a family member joins a foreign army they're a mercenary, I can think of other worthy causes like poor families who don't take up a career in killing for another country:rolleyes:

Tiocfaidh Armani

Morlar wrote: »

Is wearing of the poppy not also in honour of the bloody sunday paras and all members of the british army who have shot, maimed and killed scores of Irish people for generations (going back to the War of Independence up to recent years ) ?

It's from WWI onwards, so not for me. Too many conflicts that includes the Black and Tans. Yet some west Brits ignore all that and hang off the coat tails of WWII.

Morlar

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

It's from WWI onwards, so not for me. Too many conflicts that includes the Black and Tans. Yet some west Brits ignore all that and hang off the coat tails of WWII.

I think the Irish men who served in WW1 & WW2 should be honoured, but not in a way that involves any element of Irish people honouring the black and tans/paras, UDR, etc.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Leftist wrote: »

Our country is an embarrasment those who died in the world wars. Fighting Nazism or previously dying in trenches hoping we would get home rule.
But because ff and the church systematically lied through children's education we have a nation of mouth breathers than see aknowledging this history as some kind of treachery. Raised by fools.

A 'lefty' who wants to acknowledge and honour a largely imperialist army. What part of the poppy do we ignore? The Black and Tans? India? Kenya? Bloody Sunday? The poppy doesn't just stand for WWII, it's much more than that my 'lefty' friend:rolleyes: