‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

Lockstep

I can dig politicians and highly paid civil servants could do with a paycut but I don't get this assumption that if we do this, our economy will fix itself. What they earn is a drop in the public finances ocean. At best it's setting an example but it doesn't fix the glaring problems we face.

It worries me when I agree with Permabear :pac:

hatrickpatrick

It's not just about fixing the economy, no one expects a quick fix. It's about moral conscience. The bankers and politicians don't deserve to have their wages payed by the taxpayer after they screwed up so much. It feels like we're rewarding incompetence and corruption. They deserve to experience the sh*t they've forced on the rest of us.

Don't you agree that the people who caused this crap should be punished for it? We can't do it within the legal system apparently, why don't we do it by stopping the outrageous amount of money they still get, which their own incompetence and corruption has deprived everyone else of?
We OWN Anglo, We pretty much OWN the Irish banking system We should INSIST that anyone whose corruption had a hand in creating this mess simply be FIRED, without any kind of golden handshake.

Sounds harsh? It is. But so is the reality facing hundreds of thousands of unemployed, debt ridden Irish people because of the unbelievable criminality these assholes have so far gotten away with scot free.

Ireland: Where you can utterly screw the entire system up and get rewarded for it. The reward comes out of the pockets of Irish taxpayers.

Bannasidhe

Lads. We all decide for ourselves if we want to participate or not. At least we have a choice when in comes to the protest. None of our recent governments have ever given us a choice - from referenda on Treaties to Bank Bail-Outs.

So

We stop being so fecking spineless and can speak up

or

We can kvetch about how useless it is, how the 'demands' are wrong, how cutting politicians salaries won't help pay the bond holders, how lets play private sector vs public sector is a far more important issue .... ever heard of divide and rule?

I'll be at Occupy Cork.

Jippohead

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not just about fixing the economy, no one expects a quick fix. It's about moral conscience. The bankers and politicians don't deserve to have their wages payed by the taxpayer after they screwed up so much. It feels like we're rewarding incompetence and corruption. They deserve to experience the sh*t they've forced on the rest of us.

Don't you agree that the people who caused this crap should be punished for it? We can't do it within the legal system apparently, why don't we do it by stopping the outrageous amount of money they still get, which their own incompetence and corruption has deprived everyone else of?
We OWN Anglo, We pretty much OWN the Irish banking system We should INSIST that anyone whose corruption had a hand in creating this mess simply be FIRED, without any kind of golden handshake.

Sounds harsh? It is. But so is the reality facing hundreds of thousands of unemployed, debt ridden Irish people because of the unbelievable criminality these assholes have so far gotten away with scot free.

Ireland: Where you can utterly screw the entire system up and get rewarded for it. The reward comes out of the pockets of Irish taxpayers.

While I see the points that both sides are making, the above post is exactly how I feel. Why are so called experts and professionals not held accountable for being extremely incompetent at best, or downright dishonest and criminal at worst? (what I believe).

Yes, people who took out massive loans were idiotic and made mistakes, but is the entire population expected to be financial experts? Is it fair that people who perpetrated fraud are allowed to lounge about as millionaires?

Why are people so eager to hammer on old-age pensioners and students, like they're the cause of the meltdown exclusively?

If people saw a little accountability in Ireland, they might not feel sick to their stomachs when taking pay cuts etc etc.

Bannasidhe

Jippohead wrote: »

If people saw a little accountability in Ireland, they might not feel sick to their stomachs when taking pay cuts

ABSO****INGLUTELY!!!

Permabear

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ballyharpat

In theory, this 'occupation' sounds great, in reality, there are more dole scroungers and SW recipients up there looking out for themselves, saying 'no, don't cut my dole, I don't want to have to get a job, if I did I wouldn;t be able to hang out here and do sweet FA all day every day.'
Get off your arse and get a job. Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

I would love to be up there to protest the cronyism, the high wages paid to Quangos, etc. But I would also like to be up there protesting the high rate of SW and Rent Allowance. I would be up there saying stop any sort of a bailout for people that lived beyond their means. Those that couldn't see past the end of their nose as they took out 200k mortgages on 30k salaries.

After watching Frontline last night, I am sick of watching these people. One couple was only paying $632 month of a mortgage, they had it reduced to 210 a month and now they are worrying about how they'll pay when it goes back to the original sum. If they have both been out of work for 2+ years, how do they expect to own a house????
The other couple bought an apartment, then decided to have a kid, now they are unhappy that they live in an apartment......
Then the poor single lady that bought a e1,000,000 house and now can't make the payments.....ya think???? wow,

I'm no genius, but stupidity knows no boundaries...

I do not want anything to do with these people and their sense of entitlement and lack of self responsibility, yet they want the government to take responsibility!!!


Grow up, stop being so naive, working to try and have a better life for myself, I vote for who I think will do the best job, but unfortunately, politicians, the world over, always have been, and are, crooked.

Excuse me while I throw up......

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Nobody has hammered the handful of bankers and TDs - full stop.

I have no problem with cuts being made. I have no problem with inefficiencies in the PS sector being halted, or redundancies made. I have no problem with SW cuts being made. In fact - I was a front-line PS worker. My contract was cut. At the age of 46 I had to claim SW for the first time in my life. I got my first PAYE job when I was 15. 31 years of PRSI payments and I was made to feel like a begger. Yet, Ahern can have his exorbitant phone bill paid!

I do have a problem with No equivalent measures being taken against the 1 % - the bankers, the top civil servants, the TDs, the quango directors, the developers.

Permabear

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Manach

Permabear wrote: »

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The jobless.
Apart from that, I'd agree with you on the emotive language issue.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I think I was not the first to use the term hammered, I was echoing your use of it in relation to cuts to pensions

THE Department of Finance is investigating the payment of a secret €500,000 bonus to a senior figure in Bank of Ireland.

The Irish Independent has learned the payment was made to the executive in Bank of Ireland Asset Management (BIAM) in recent days -- without the knowledge of Finance Minister Brian Lenihan.

Dec 2010 http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-into-euro500000-secret-bank-bonus-2465716.html

An investigation by the Department of Finance into bonuses paid to executives at Bank of Ireland has found that the bank misled the State and the taxpayer.

It has emerged Bank of Ireland paid €4.3m in bonuses to staff since the introduction of the bank guarantee in 2008.

Another €600,000 will be paid in bonuses this year; another €200,000 in 2012.

The bank also said that €11m may have to be paid to 250 workers this year under certain bonus categories.

March 2010 Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/investigation-exposes-bank-of-ireland-bonus-payments-495877.html#ixzz1aWE79pSm

It hasn't been a great couple of years for corporate bankers in Ireland, what with redundancies, pay cuts and the whole finger-pointed-for-the-country's-economic-meltdown thing. But their situation is starting to look up.

Salaries for commercial and corporate bankers have actually increased over the course of 2010, on the back of greater demand for their services.

The rise is most pronounced at the senior end; relationship managers with over five years' experience can now expect €85-100k (up from €69-85k last year), according to the 2011 Robert Walters Salary Survey. But, as the table below shows, pay has increased across the board, from junior credit analysts to senior assistant relationship managers.

Feb 2011 http://news.efinancialcareers.ie/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-31040

TWO senior executives at Irish Life & Permanent enjoyed earnings above the €500,000 banking pay cap last year, as car allowances and other perks bulked up their salaries.

The €538,000 package of IL&P boss Kevin Murphy is revealed in the bancassurer's 2010 annual report, which also shows that finance chief David McCarthy enjoyed total remuneration of €514,000.

Both men's salaries were in line with the pay cap on state-supported banks, with Mr Murphy's on the button at €500,000 and Mr McCarthy following closely behind with €497,000.

Mr Murphy's salary was supplemented with a €34,000 benefit in kind -- believed to relate to a company car and health premiums -- plus €4,000 in "other" benefits, linked to permanent health insurance.

Mr McCarthy's benefit in kind came in at €31,000, while he also booked €4,000 in "other" remuneration.

Mar 2011 http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/perks-take-ilp-bankers-over-the-euro500000-pay-cap-2573571.html

BANK OF Ireland chief executive Richie Boucher received a top-up to his pension of €1.49 million last year. This was part of a total remuneration package worth €1.99 million for the bank boss.

Apr 2010. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0417/1224268543242.html

No bonuses and salary cuts across the banking sector you say?

Jippohead

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think I was not the first to use the term hammered, I was echoing your use of it in relation to cuts to pensions

Jeez folks, it was just a word. I apologise and will tame my emotive language in future discussion.

Jippohead

Ok, I agree that cuts will have to be made and that social welfare, salaries and pensions are now way out of kilter with our current revenue streams.

However, where did the revenue come from for the rises between 2002 and 2007? I'm going to guess it was from the credit/property bubble inflated by a small number of people (developers, bankers, politicians). Is that fair or not? or did that all money come from our coffers when we were a country that actually produced things of value?

If it is a fair (simplistic) assessment, whats happened those responsible? A pay-cut of 33% on a €500,000 salary and leave it at that? A large golden handshake? A very generous pension (in the case of several politicians)?

The thing that really bothers me, is that considering all the variables that have gone into this mess, has the burden of "our" collective mistakes (and I didn't touch property and don't live in Ireland anymore) been spread proportionally? and has there been any accountability for those that helped mess things up? (and I don't necessarily mean FF getting booted out of government, although that is an example).

hatrickpatrick

The point I'm trying to make with regard to banks is that it's not just about directly fixing the economy.

It's also about justice.

It's about the moral abhorrence of you and me, the people who have suffered because of this, paying the wages of the people who caused it. Do you not see the bitter irony?

They should be left to rot, just like they left us to rot. Equality. All human beings deserve equal treatment. No bailout for one sector without a bailout for others. Why do we bail out gambling idiots while not bailing out people in negative equity?

I AGREE that you could make the argument that those people were also irresponsible and incompetent. But if incompetence is rewarded in the banking sector, it should also be rewarded everywhere else.

Otherwise the message you're sending is "people who manage banks are more important than others and deserve to be protected and treated better than others."

And I simply don't accept that this holds true for ANY part of society. Either we're all in this together or we're not. I don't accept that one class of people matters more than others. Why should a gambling banker have his money repaid by the taxpayer but not a gambling homeowner who took out an unwise mortgage?

Same mistake, different place. Why are we paying for one but not the other? Why is it ok to let that homeowner rot but not the bank manager?

Bannasidhe

It is reported that nine Ministers are paying their special advisers more than the money-saving pay cap announced by Government.

The normal pay scale is €80,000 to €92,000, but nine Departments have secured exemptions.

Sinn Féin said it was ironic that advisers to Joan Burton's department of Social Protection were on higher rates "while the department is doggedly pursuing fraud".

The Taoiseach's two advisers earn €168,000 each while the Tánaiste's advisors earn €168,000 and €155,000. They are not subject to the pay ceilings.

Oct 12 2011 http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/nine-ministers-exceed-pay-cap-for-advisors-524023.html#ixzz1aYarMWoP

:mad:

meglome

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oct 12 2011 http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/nine-ministers-exceed-pay-cap-for-advisors-524023.html#ixzz1aYarMWoP

:mad:

There you go yet another thing that the protest should be about but isn't. Along with cutting Social Welfare payments, excessively high public salaries etc.

Though if these advisors are actually doing a good job it might be money well spent.

hatrickpatrick

meglome wrote: »

There you go yet another thing that the protest should be about but isn't. Along with cutting Social Welfare payments, excessively high public salaries etc.

Though if these advisors are actually doing a good job it might be money well spent.

1: social welfare recipients and average public servants didn't cause the mess through corruption. For me, this is about punishing those who actively encouraged corruption. IE, handing over €65bn to Anglo because the people in charge of it are personal friends, etc.

If a company in the public sector had been bailed out and had had a direct part in causing the mess, I would absolutely object to my money paying its wages. The reason that isn't a priority for my complaints (and I'm not saying it isn't for others) is because I'm primarily concerned with the blatant injustice of me paying the wages of the people who have ruined my prospects of living comfortably myself.

That might be overly dramatic but I don't understand the apathy here. Why should you pay for Drumm, FitzPatrick etc? We now own Anglo. It's OUR money paying for these assholes' pensions. It's THEIR mistakes which will damage OUR lives.

The injustice simply makes me absolutely sick. They should be penalized, not rewarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Drumm#The_.22Golden_Circle.22

David Drumm: €3m pension on resigning under scandal. €3m being paid for by you and me. €3m which could easily fund hospitals, schools, roadworks, things which benefit Ireland as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_FitzPatrick#Career

Read this one yourself. It makes me rage too hard. €4m is the figure here.

Again, that's going to be paid by you and me. We own that bank, even though we never asked to own it. The guy and his cronies should be being savaged by the criminal assets bureau, not being bailed out by the taxpayer. They played a huge role in causing the general misery in this country.

An I honestly the only one who abhors this situation? Do you want me to name anymore names of people who are being funded by the taxpayer after they screwed up of their own free will and lost the ability to fund themselves?

Sure, social welfare and PS pay are too high. But there's a difference between that, and actively paying for people who are criminals and who caused unbelievable amounts of sh!t for the rest of us. They should be in prison.

meglome

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

1: social welfare recipients and average public servants didn't cause the mess through corruption. For me, this is about punishing those who actively encouraged corruption. IE, handing over €65bn to Anglo because the people in charge of it are personal friends, etc.

I don't think you'd find many people who wouldn't want those directly responsible for what happened to be punished for it. How harshly would depend on what they did. However it won't do a damn thing to stop what's happening right now. This is in the past and we need to look to the future.

I personally had some tough times in 2008/09 financially and was living on next to nothing. Yet I'd still gladly take more pain if it helped us get out of this mess. How many on Dame street would cheer on their welfare being cut by a third? Which is what needs to happen.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If a company in the public sector had been bailed out and had had a direct part in causing the mess, I would absolutely object to my money paying its wages. The reason that isn't a priority for my complaints (and I'm not saying it isn't for others) is because I'm primarily concerned with the blatant injustice of me paying the wages of the people who have ruined my prospects of living comfortably myself.

Fine but what will that do to fix anything now? (And don't get me wrong I'd love if the likes of Sean Fitz were sitting in a gaol cell).

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That might be overly dramatic but I don't understand the apathy here. Why should you pay for Drumm, FitzPatrick etc? We now own Anglo. It's OUR money paying for these assholes' pensions. It's THEIR mistakes which will damage OUR lives.

I don't see apathy. I see people seeing this protest for what it is. There is a mass of things wrong and they go after bull**** and/or imaginary things. To be honest it's a ****ing joke.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The injustice simply makes me absolutely sick. They should be penalized, not rewarded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Drumm#The_.22Golden_Circle.22

David Drumm: €3m pension on resigning under scandal. €3m being paid for by you and me. €3m which could easily fund hospitals, schools, roadworks, things which benefit Ireland as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_FitzPatrick#Career

Read this one yourself. It makes me rage too hard. €4m is the figure here.

Again, that's going to be paid by you and me. We own that bank, even though we never asked to own it. The guy and his cronies should be being savaged by the criminal assets bureau, not being bailed out by the taxpayer. They played a huge role in causing the general misery in this country..

I agree entirely, so why hasn't the protest made a point of this? If they did they would get far more people to join in. Right now I see a lot of people down there who want all our problems to magically disappear of be someone else's problem. I cannot... will not... agree with that.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

An I honestly the only one who abhors this situation? Do you want me to name anymore names of people who are being funded by the taxpayer after they screwed up of their own free will and lost the ability to fund themselves?

Again agreed it's terrible... pity the protests didn't mention this.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Sure, social welfare and PS pay are too high. But there's a difference between that, and actively paying for people who are criminals and who caused unbelievable amounts of sh!t for the rest of us. They should be in prison.

The biggest problem we've got isn't getting revenge, it's fixing the mess. No matter who we put in prison what's done will still be done. Our overspending is the greatest threat to this state, it actually worries me a lot. Quite honestly it pisses me off that all these protesters could do was shout about getting 'the man' or making it someone else's problem. What a complete waste. If I spent more than half an hour down there I'd be in a fistfight with someone. What's so difficult to get, piling crap on top of a mess isn't helping.

cue

I will be going to the march on Saturday. I think that it is a good thing and that is based mostly on my gut feeling. I visit Dame st at lunchtime most days just to be there, to be part of it. I am 42, have 2 kids and feel powerless over what is going on. I feel odd amongst the tents and the dreadlocks and slogans. I also feel odd amongst the politicians that I grew up with. I want to get a bit of hope back and I’m not getting that off any political parties. Right now, I just want to be with ordinary people like myself. Pure and simple. I don’t agree with half of the demands, but such is life. I’m gonna turn up and make the best of it.

Peanut

meglome wrote: »

The biggest problem we've got isn't getting revenge, it's fixing the mess. No matter who we put in prison what's done will still be done.

I think it's fair to say that it's easier to convince people that they need to take their share of cuts if they can see that there's some form of social justice being done.

The difficulty arises when they also expect that the situation will be fixed primarily by seeking retribution, without the addition of some kind of realistic plan for growth.

The protesters need to make a clear distinction between the demands for justice and the proposals to address the economy.

meglome

cue wrote: »

I will be going to the march on Saturday. I think that it is a good thing and that is based mostly on my gut feeling. I visit Dame st at lunchtime most days just to be there, to be part of it. I am 42, have 2 kids and feel powerless over what is going on. I feel odd amongst the tents and the dreadlocks and slogans. I also feel odd amongst the politicians that I grew up with. I want to get a bit of hope back and I’m not getting that off any political parties. Right now, I just want to be with ordinary people like myself. Pure and simple. I don’t agree with half of the demands, but such is life. I’m gonna turn up and make the best of it.

You know I am tempted to to down there but I'm genuinely concerned about how I'd react if I had to listen to enough rhetoric and bull****. Honestly I'm very angry about how things have worked out. I didn't borrow big or support what FF were doing in any way. I told anyone who would listen several years ago that we needed to stop what we were doing. I really don't think I can stand listening to people trying to magic our problems away though.

20Cent

meglome wrote: »

You know I am tempted to to down there but I'm genuinely concerned about how I'd react if I had to listen to enough rhetoric and bull****. Honestly I'm very angry about how things have worked out. I didn't borrow big or support what FF were doing in any way. I told anyone who would listen several years ago that we needed to stop what we were doing. I really don't think I can stand listening to people trying to magic our problems away though.

Why don't you go and make your voice heard. There is an open mike there anyone can stand up and say what they want.

Permabear

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amk2

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Could you elaborate on this one please - being a taxpayer in a "far-flung constituency" is there any public infrastructure I am "entitled" to in exchange for the taxes I paid?

It extends to students who refuse to pay tuition fees to attend university.

And the same question applies to 3rd level education.

meglome

amk2 wrote: »

Could you elaborate on this one please - being a taxpayer in a "far-flung constituency" is there any public infrastructure I am "entitled" to in exchange for the taxes I paid?

I believe he means that outside of Dublin and Cork most places are receiving money they didn't pay in taxes, the people of Dublin and Cork paid it.

Permabear

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hatrickpatrick

meglome wrote: »

I don't think you'd find many people who wouldn't want those directly responsible for what happened to be punished for it. How harshly would depend on what they did. However it won't do a damn thing to stop what's happening right now. This is in the past and we need to look to the future.

Imagine I murdered a member of your family or one of your friends. Someone could easily say "Justice won't make them come back" but it would still bring you some closure wouldn't it?
Or are you suggesting we forgive all fugitives and unsolved crimes because "that's in the past"?

I personally had some tough times in 2008/09 financially and was living on next to nothing. Yet I'd still gladly take more pain if it helped us get out of this mess. How many on Dame street would cheer on their welfare being cut by a third? Which is what needs to happen.

You're once again stereotyping the type of people who protest. I can't tell you how wrong you are, you need to go down there and meet these people for yourself. People from all walks of life are there, not just welfare recipients.

Secondly, don't you think fairness would make a bitter pill easier to swallow?
If I could give you an analogy, how would you feel if you were in school and someone punched you, you punched back and only you got detention? Wouldn't it be much easier to put up with being in detention if you knew the guy who started it hadn't got off scott free?

Fine but what will that do to fix anything now? (And don't get me wrong I'd love if the likes of Sean Fitz were sitting in a gaol cell).

It won't, it will just make the situation we all have to deal with easier, psychologically, to deal with - if we know the people who caused it aren't walking away with millions.

Again, I would find it much easier to accept my college fees going up and excise, vat etc going up if I didn't feel that money was paying the WAGES of people who are responsible for causing this mess. As it stands now, I will absolutely refuse to accept any of it whatsoever as long we we're actually directly paying wages and pensions to the people who f*cked up.

I don't see apathy. I see people seeing this protest for what it is. There is a mass of things wrong and they go after bull**** and/or imaginary things. To be honest it's a ****ing joke.

Have you read the manifesto? Demand number 3:

#OccupyDameStreet wrote:

Our demand is that the private bank debt that has been socialised and burdened upon the population of the country who had nothing to do with it be lifted. We will not pay and let our children and their children pay for this crisis that private banks and bondholders have caused. It is their problem, not ours.

I agree entirely, so why hasn't the protest made a point of this? If they did they would get far more people to join in. Right now I see a lot of people down there who want all our problems to magically disappear of be someone else's problem. I cannot... will not... agree with that.

Read above.
No one expects the problems to disappear. Why do you keep assuming this is a proposed solution? It isn't. It's a demand for JUSTICE.

Again agreed it's terrible... pity the protests didn't mention this.

For the Nth time, yes they did. Read above.

The biggest problem we've got isn't getting revenge, it's fixing the mess. No matter who we put in prison what's done will still be done. Our overspending is the greatest threat to this state, it actually worries me a lot. Quite honestly it pisses me off that all these protesters could do was shout about getting 'the man' or making it someone else's problem. What a complete waste. If I spent more than half an hour down there I'd be in a fistfight with someone. What's so difficult to get, piling crap on top of a mess isn't helping.

What's so difficult to get? I want the tax I pay to go towards fixing the mess, not paying a bunch of assholes' wages when they're the people responsible for making the mess. I will not accept any of the crap being piled on US, the people, while the criminals responsible for the mess are walking away from it and not being chased down.
Bank debt in Anglo IS "somebody else's problem". I didn't have any loans with them. Did you? Why should you or I pay for their mistakes?
Why should we also pay for the people working in that bank when they're the people who made the mess? Shouldn't they be paying US?!

steve9859

There's not many at the march. They haven't even closed off dame street. 300 people maybe, maximum, just in the area in front of the bank.

Is that a reflection of the strength of feeling about this? Or that people still think the protesters are saying nothing more than "down with this kind of thing"?

Whichever way, it's hardly a 99%!!

hatrickpatrick

steve9859 wrote: »

There's not many at the march. They haven't even closed off dame street. 300 people maybe, maximum, just in the area in front of the bank.

Is that a reflection of the strength of feeling about this? Or that people still think the protesters are saying nothing more than "down with this kind of thing"?

Whichever way, it's hardly a 99%!!

Actually to be honest it's the woeful lack of PR. If I hadn't been there I wouldn't have heard about this. They desperately need a better leafleting / awareness campaign next time they do a march.

Not knocking them, it's incredibly tough to organize anything like this as I know only too well myself, but the lack of turnout isn't a reflection of popularity alone, it's also a reflection of the fact that a huge number of people hadn't heard this march was happening.

Suryavarman

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Have you read the manifesto? Demand number 3:

Just out of interest do you have a link to the demands of OccupyDameStreet? Had a quick look through the thread and on Google and I couldn't see anything.

steve9859 wrote: »

There's not many at the march. They haven't even closed off dame street. 300 people maybe, maximum, just in the area in front of the bank.

Is that a reflection of the strength of feeling about this? Or that people still think the protesters are saying nothing more than "down with this kind of thing"?

Whichever way, it's hardly a 99%!!

The weather isn't ideal for a day out in fairness. Could have something to do with a poor turnout, as well as Irish peoples general apathy towards protesting.