‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

meglome

Was just reading about this. Their 4 demands are...

The Journal wrote:

1. that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”
2. that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted
3. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”
4. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

The usual suspects were commenting on the Journal piece I was reading with the usual bull. My thoughts...

1. Nice idea… would have also been a nice idea if the FF government we repeatedly elected had not given a blanket bank guarantee in 2008. Ship well sailed – Maybe the protesters have a time machine.
2. Great. The problem is we’re spending 20 billion a year more than we take in, in tax. I suppose someone else should pay that for us too. Or perhaps we should immediately cut that money now and screw the poor and needy.
3. We’ve issued, I believe, 7(??) licences out or 100 odd at a discounted rate. We have in our history landed a total of 0 oil and currently the Corrib field has landed 0 gas. Given that oil companies are greedy profit driven animals you’d think they’d be taking our hands off since they are getting such an amazing deal for squillions of oil/gas. I dunno almost seems like the figures we see are not true.
4. We just had an election. Perhaps though people should reflect on who they have been voting for over the years.

Why is it so difficult to have an honest debate in this country? I'm all for protests as such but this is just untrue or crap.

Scofflaw

Wouldn't it be nice if they were calling for real reform of the financial sector instead of pie in the sky based on myths and kneejerkery?

ah well,
Scofflaw

washman3

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

PomBear

washman3 wrote: »

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

washman3

PomBear wrote: »

I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

PomBear

washman3 wrote: »

Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

Afraid not, I could do a few things in Dublin this week but ironically, can't afford the bus fare but have done a fair bit and alot more than the average citizen to oppose the austerity, bank bailouts, IMF/EU/Troika etc. and will continue to do as much as my means allow me.

Scofflaw

washman3 wrote: »

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nate--IRL--

washman3 wrote: »

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

"We have to do something!"

"This is something"

"Lets do that!"

Nate

PomBear

Scofflaw wrote: »

In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

Scofflaw

PomBear wrote: »

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

regards,
Scofflaw

SouperComputer

Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

PomBear

SouperComputer wrote: »

Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

Many people do have an understanding, I have an understanding, many people on that protest have an understanding, I can vouch for that even if some have views different from my own.

It probably won't get the IMF/EU out but we have to do something, anything. Standing up and saying no is one of the ways of doing that.

If we were all to lie down and do nothing, we'll never know but things might be worse. If things do get worse, this or something else can be the spark the ignites a whole nation to stand up and say no, but the fact that it's there and people are doing their bit says something and will certainly should that spark ever ignite something larger.

PomBear

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

regards,
Scofflaw

Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

SouperComputer

My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.
I will support (and have supported) protests that are worthwhile, based on a current real-world situation with a view to achieving attainable, measurable goals.
I have not, and will not support a protest "just coz".

You feel the protest is worthwhile for the reasons you outlined, and I dont for the reasons I outlined. I think its fair to say that we'll have to agree to disagree. Let's just leave it at that.

PomBear

SouperComputer wrote: »

My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.

What would be your idea of something smarter?

Also i'll talk about the demands, no doubt they are huge but they are very respectable views, just because they are out of touch, why not try? there's nothing to lose here and to be honest just because they have really a snowballs chance of actually happening, it's no excuse of not giving it a go because if it's achieved, it will be worth it and incase you haven't noticed, the people of Ireland are not being listened and are being dictated to, we are clutching at straws for something to turn that tide so why not give it a go? To do nothing is to all in all accept this and accept all that comes from it an d for me, I couldn't live with myself not standing up for myself, my community and my country.

Anyways i'll analysis a few of the demands

that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”

Very fair if you look at damage the IMF has done in other countries, it's also about sovereignty, the IMF/ECB won't support us as a nation and while we're repaying them, how are going to rebuild as a nation? Most, if not all, of Ireland's most astute economists, left and right wing, support default by the way, to say that is bordering on idiocy isn't really acceptable. My view is to ignore all these economists is to border on idiocy and to do so, will lead to this country's economic demise.

that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted

It's simply undemocratic and unfair to allow Irish families to be burdened by the poor gambling of effectively private businesses. I don't go into Paddy Power, if I have a losing bet and demand my money back. It's as simple as that and to not insult democracy, I don't need to explain further.

1. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”

Again, the natural resources whatever they be should always be used for the good of the Irish people, it's, again, fair and democratic. No point in getting into a debate on its worth and Shell's dealings further as to not derail the thread and of which threads, are in abundance.

1. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

Couldn't hurt, democracy is there to ensure the people's will is pursued by it's representation in Government. It hasn't been in terms of the IMF/ECB bailout or the bank bailout, that was wring in my opinion.

ei.sdraob

Scofflaw wrote: »

Wouldn't it be nice if they were calling for real reform of the financial sector instead of pie in the sky based on myths and kneejerkery?

ah well,
Scofflaw

How about a simple solution :rolleyes:

no bailouts of private companies/banks

If the financial sector decide to open up a casino and then it burns down, let them burn with it

Speaking of "reforms" whatever happened to reform of the public service and quangos?
has there been any "reform" in our regulator/cb ?
what is to stop these guys collecting their paychecks and not turning up for work like they did in the past???

ei.sdraob

washman3 wrote: »

Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

They can start by voting with their wallets and withdrawing their money from the financial sector.

20Cent

Went down to the protest yesterday, there were about 30 people there at 2pm the crowd kept getting bigger by 3 there was 150-200 I hear more came after that. There was 8 tents there last night. There is a human microphone system in place. Anyone can go down there and say what they think, I saw a few very articulate people speaking. Some of the geniuses on boards should go down there and tell them what to do since its open to everyone. Sickening to see people slagging them off here like another poster said at least they will be able to say they tried.
The IMF representative in Dublin has an office in the central bank so he will be seeing it. The movement has had some success in the US, Ben Bernanke said he doesn't blame to protesters, Obama said similar. Even if this results in some legislation to regulate corporate donations, or the financial sector it will have achieved something. This thing is only going to get bigger, there is a larger march planned for next saturday.
In November Ireland is paying 700million in unsecured guaranteed Anglo bonds. That is money not even covered by the guarantee. If that doesn't make you mad I don't know what will.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

Went down to the protest yesterday, there were about 30 people there at 2pm the crowd kept getting bigger by 3 there was 150-200 I hear more came after that. There was 8 tents there last night. There is a human microphone system in place. Anyone can go down there and say what they think, I saw a few very articulate people speaking. Some of the geniuses on boards should go down there and tell them what to do since its open to everyone. Sickening to see people slagging them off here like another poster said at least they will be able to say they tried.
The IMF representative in Dublin has an office in the central bank so he will be seeing it. The movement has had some success in the US, Ben Bernanke said he doesn't blame to protesters, Obama said similar. Even if this results in some legislation to regulate corporate donations, or the financial sector it will have achieved something. This thing is only going to get bigger, there is a larger march planned for next saturday.

There is nothing wrong with them protesting, we have this concept of democracy and freedom of speech here (tho severely restrained by backwards laws such as Blasphemy Bill!) provided its non violent and causes no damage to property.
Like I said earlier if these people believe in what they preach then they can start by withdrawing their money out of the banking system. Yes they can vote with their wallets. Have you @20cent?

20Cent wrote: »

In November Ireland is paying 700million in unsecured guaranteed Anglo bonds. That is money not even covered by the guarantee. If that doesn't make you mad I don't know what will.

I raised the point of why are we paying unsecured bondholders on here many of time. This is what happens when the state to dabble in socialism which you love and decides to socialise losses of private entities. A taste of own medicine 20cent...

Atlantic Dawn

Theres enough oil and gas off our western shores to make us another Norway, the Corrib field is only chicken feed compared to what's there. My hope is we have the right taxation in place for us to all benefit.

RichardAnd

Those people went out into the streets and protested about something they actually believe in as opposed to sitting on their back sides whining. The reaction to such an act that has been displayed on this board is quite disheartening in that it demonstrates just how broken the spirit of the Irish people is.

Whether or not you consider those people to be right or wrong, you must commend them for standing up for themselves. Look at the French, a school recently broke out in a near riot over a rumour that holidays were to be reduced. Putting aside what is and is not needed to sort out Ireland, if the Irish people do not attempt to stand up for themselves then they will be beaten down at every turn.

For my own efforts, I have to admit that I have never gone out to protest and I am somewhat ashamed at that. To date, my only attempts have been a few articles in a tiny magazine my friend publishes on the jobs initiative. Not much, but I for one don't buy into the belief that the EU, the government and the other powers that be have the interests of the people at heart. The modern state is bought and paid for by the corporations and the mega banks.

FreudianSlippers

PomBear wrote: »

Better than effectively nothing at all.

"The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with them protesting, we have this concept of democracy and freedom of speech here (tho severely restrained by backwards laws such as Blasphemy Bill!) provided its non violent and causes no damage to property.
Like I said earlier if these people believe in what they preach then they can start by withdrawing their money out of the banking system. Yes they can vote with their wallets. Have you @20cent?

What money?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I raised the point of why are we paying unsecured bondholders on here many of time. This is what happens when the state to dabble in socialism which you love and decides to socialise losses of private entities. A taste of own medicine 20cent...

Is there anything more inane than the "U luv socialism" nonsense designed to stifle and kill debate since the McCarty era? That dope smoking pinko liberal hippy Colm McCarthy even says that Ireland has been saddled with an unjustifiable share of the burden in today's sindo.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

What money?

That explains alot

20Cent wrote: »

Is there anything more inane than the "U luv socialism" nonsense designed to stifle and kill debate since the McCarty era? That dope smoking pinko liberal hippy Colm McCarthy even says that Ireland has been saddled with an unjustifiable share of the burden in today's sindo.

And have I ever claimed otherwise? My position from the start was in opposition to socialisation of debt, failure should not be rewarded and bailed out.

PomBear

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

FreudianSlippers

PomBear wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

Whatever that's supposed to mean. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

PomBear wrote: »

Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

I think you've missed the point by quite a wide margin.

On point 1, we are in a position where we have to adhere to the financial targets laid down by the IMF/EU because the State is in receivership, and they are the receivers. Belly-aching about them being foreign overlords or having no right to "dictate" to "the people of Ireland" is meaningless verbiage - we are up the creek, and they're the only ones providing paddles.

The alternative to the troika is simple - massive austerity and a market lockout. People calling for it are therefore stupid or deluded, and those who are calling for it because of austerity are downright idiots, because the alternative to the troika's assistance is even more austerity, as can be seen by anyone who's not living in cloud cuckoo land. And the majority of the people of Ireland can apparently see that - they may not like having the troika here, and they may not like having our national receivers setting the terms and conditions, but the absence of widespread protests reflects the recognition that this is pain we brought on ourselves and will have to work through. And that means that the protests will not get the widespread public support they need to be viable, making them another flash in the pan exercise in feeling good because you're sticking it to the man.

Rejecting the assistance available from the troika doesn't solve any of Ireland's problems - it simply adds new ones. So, even were the protests successful in this aim, they would still be useless or worse than useless.

On point 2, the bank debt was legally taken on by the legally constituted government of the State. Sure, reduce it if we can, but the government is already trying to do so, so this one strikes me as entirely pointless.

On point 3, I'm afraid that nationalising Ireland's oil and gas reserves would be another worse than useless stroke. All of the S2S blether about trillions in petroleum reserves is just that, blether. Our known petroleum reserves are miniscule, and we haven't the money or the expertise to spend several years drilling dry holes all over Ireland's shelf. The known and untapped commercially viable reserves (Corrib, that's all) would pay one Anglo promissory note, at the expense of involving ourselves in: (a) a massive legal case against companies with turnovers bigger than Ireland's GDP; and (b) a potential moratorium or cost hike on imports. When the six months or so of gas in Corrib runs out, what then? So that's another one for the cloud-cuckoo protesters.

On point 4, what's supposed to be meant by "real participatory democracy"? That the public should elect people more in keeping with the preferences of the protesters? Sorry. Or that we should have referendums about everything? On that, we have two populist power-grabs by the executive and legislature tabled for a vote on the same day as the Presidential elections, and both of them will almost certainly pass without any real debate and by large margins. Is that "real participatory democracy"? People voting on complex and potentially far-reaching measures because the sound-bite summary leaves out any potential downsides? Voting for the potential for McCarthy-type tribunals of politicians to sit in judgement over anyone the media make out to be a villain?

Seriously, there's a lot wrong in this country, and not one bit of it is addressed by these protests. I respect the right of the protesters to protest, I admire their willingness to do it, and I think they're idiots with a programme of idiocy.

regards,
Scofflaw

thebman

Protests like this remind of me of a song called go by the vandals.

The time has almost come,
Stand up and be someone
Finish up with dinner, and join up with the winners I mean for real this time,
at least just kind of try
When I say "Go" you say "Go" Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go!
We gotta think it through, I know what we should do
Let's Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go! go!
Wait right here for now, until we figure how.
To overthrow the land, and finish our demands
and Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go! go!
End all our repression, and teach the man a lesson

Let's talk it through again, and call up all our friends
together unified- is unity united
then it's decided we will fight....soon

Lets fight against this thing we think is bad but don't know enough about to be able to come up with a viable alternative to or even know exactly what we should be protesting against.

Where on Dame Street is Wall Street :P

Nate--IRL--

thebman wrote: »

Lets fight against this thing we think is bad but don't know enough about to be able to come up with a viable alternative to or even know exactly what we should be protesting against.

Indeed, If you are actually going to go the effort of protesting about something, it makes sense to me that you would at least put in SOME effort to understand the issues at play.

Nate

thebman

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

Scofflaw

thebman wrote: »

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

And if you want to deal with a complex and large problem, such as the need for reform in the governance of the State, form an NGO and lobby for reform on an ongoing basis. Use protests to highlight the lack of reform.

cordially,
Scofflaw

EI_Flyboy

Maybe the vast majority of the protesters don't understand in full the intricacies of the economics involved in the international marketplace but I don't see why that should keep them from protesting. Maybe the only prerequisite to qualify as a valid protester is a deep belief or understanding that what they are protesting against is very very very wrong.

Neither do I see that they fail to see that the IMF/EU/Troika are the only show in town and that the paddle they offer is all that is available. I think they feel that that paddle is rigged to steer us in circles and what they have in mind is to jump ship.

It seems what they see is that the current course means fewer and fewer are getting richer and richer while more and more are getting poorer and poorer so the idea that their course of action will only lead to more pain is erroneous to them.

What I see is a huge build up of tension like the stretching of an elastic band that will at some point reach it's limit and snap back violently if the tension isn't released in a sensible controlled manner. I don't see any evidence of sensible control.

Nate--IRL--

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Maybe the only prerequisite to qualify as a valid protester is a deep belief or understanding that what they are protesting against is very very very wrong.

That is the problem - for a protest to be effective it would need to be directed in way that matters, by not understanding what they are protesting against, it is useless noise, directed aimlessly.

If they actually understood what was going on they would have been out protesting in 2008 against NAMA or the guarantee when it might have mattered.

Nate

The Waltzing Consumer

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

What I see is a huge build up of tension like the stretching of an elastic band that will at some point reach it's limit and snap back violently if the tension isn't released in a sensible controlled manner. I don't see any evidence of sensible control.

But this is just more apocalyptic scare mongering. People have saying this since 2008, if it was so true or even a bit or truth, then you see more and more protests with bigger numbers. This protest had what? 30. Plus they were not angry, it seemed like a normal saturday at central bank.

You see more tension when pubs close every night then what these protests pretend to be.

hatrickpatrick

Why in God's name are so many people around the world bashing this anti financial-sector movement?

Sure at the moment it's vague, sure at the moment it doesn't have a very clear agenda, but for f*ck's sake it's better than the three years of helpless b!tching on Joe duffy we've had, isn't it?

Occupy Wall Street and its offshoots may not be a perfect protest movement by a long shot, but dammit it's SOMETHING, something we've been lacking for the last 4 years as people have just rolled over and taken it up the ass from these gobsh!tes. Now a small group of people have finally had enough and tried to start a dissent movement and they're being ridiculed by so many people - people who are ALSO being screwed over by the banks!!!

Every single person in this thread is paying tax in some form or another. Every single person in this thread is having money taken from them to pay for idiotic mistakes by others.

IMO, anyone who ridicules or bashes this movement is indirectly saying "you know what, I don't really five a f***".

Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. The scourge of our society.

hatrickpatrick

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

But this is just more apocalyptic scare mongering. People have saying this since 2008, if it was so true or even a bit or truth, then you see more and more protests with bigger numbers. This protest had what? 30. Plus they were not angry, it seemed like a normal saturday at central bank.

You see more tension when pubs close every night then what these protests pretend to be.

No one ever claimed that revolution was an overnight affair. How many years of failed start-up protest movements did it take before the Arab Spring finally succeeded?
In fact you could argue that it still hasn't succeeded yet by a long shot, there are still many countries in which it's only just getting going.

The problem with the 21st century is that everyone expects instant results, people don't seem to realize anymore that protest movements evolve, and sometimes this evolution happens over a long period of time.

In other words, people need to be more patient about this. It may have been 30 people at the weekend, but those 30 people could be the seeds of something much bigger.

Do you think the United Irishmen had thousands of members and a clear, eloquent manifesto from day one? What about the Civil Rights movement? You think these things just appear fully fledged without any development phase?

hatrickpatrick

thebman wrote: »

Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

I have to be honest I disagree here. I don't attend because I feel the government isn't listening. I attend because I know from history and from the media that overwhelming outpourings of rage and frustrations in gigantic numbers can actually sow the seeds of change.

EDIT: Consider the medical card protests back in 2009. The government was forced to go back on that proposal to restrict it because of the amount of rage generated in the streets and on the airwaves.
Are you honestly implying that protesting is a complete waste of time?

I'm on the committee for Save Our Seafront in Dun Laoghaire, where a succession of gigantic protest marches and rallies forced the county council to abandon its skyscraper plan for Dun Laoghaire Baths. Protesting DOES work. What kills it is mass apathy such as that being displayed in this thread.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have to be honest I disagree here. I don't attend because I feel the government isn't listening. I attend because I know from history and from the media that overwhelming outpourings of rage and frustrations in gigantic numbers can actually sow the seeds of change.

EDIT: Consider the medical card protests back in 2009. The government was forced to go back on that proposal to restrict it because of the amount of rage generated in the streets and on the airwaves.
Are you honestly implying that protesting is a complete waste of time?

I'm on the committee for Save Our Seafront in Dun Laoghaire, where a succession of gigantic protest marches and rallies forced the county council to abandon its skyscraper plan for Dun Laoghaire Baths. Protesting DOES work. What kills it is mass apathy such as that being displayed in this thread.

And both those protests you mention had clear and realisable aims, not just a giant chip on their shoulder. Protesting works if there's a clear aim other than grandstanding (and ideally to stop something), and it's not clear in the case of this specific protest that that's so - instead the aims are general, sloganistic, knee-jerk non-solutions.

What's on the thread isn't apathy but derision - and maybe that derision is misplaced, maybe the protesters will get it together, realise that at least one of their aims isn't even based in reality, and stop clapping themselves on the back for "doing something" when, frankly, they're not.

cordially,
Scofflaw

EI_Flyboy

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

That is the problem - for a protest to be effective it would need to be directed in way that matters, by not understanding what they are protesting against, it is useless noise, directed aimlessly.

If they actually understood what was going on they would have been out protesting in 2008 against NAMA or the guarantee when it might have mattered.

Nate

People don't protest when they do or don't understand issues, they protest when they feel pain. Maybe they didn't feel the pain in 2008 and are only beginning to feel it now. What they see is that they're the only ones being made to feel the pain and the bankers/politicians aren't sharing it but are still driving around in their beemers and mercs, getting nice bonuses. Pain and injustice, potent motivators.

This protest isn't just 30 people in tents on Dame st.(looked more like 80 to me when I strolled past lastnight), it's global, connected through facebook and twitter. It may seem aimless right now but whatever direction it takes, I'd imagine it'll be steered globally.

Congressman Peter King wrote:

“[W]e have to be careful not to allow this to get any legitimacy,” he warned. “I’m taking this seriously in that I’m old enough to remember what happened in the 1960s when the left-wing took to the streets and somehow the media glorified them and it ended up shaping policy… We can’t allow that to happen.”

Well, someone's taking them seriously.

SouperComputer

I don't understand why is it so difficult for some people to differentiate between a worthwhile protest and one thats not worthwhile because its based on idiocy.

You can't compare save our seafront and the medical card protests with this nonsense on Dame street.

Permabear

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irishh_bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why in God's name are so many people around the world bashing this anti financial-sector movement?

Sure at the moment it's vague, sure at the moment it doesn't have a very clear agenda, but for f*ck's sake it's better than the three years of helpless b!tching on Joe duffy we've had, isn't it?

Occupy Wall Street and its offshoots may not be a perfect protest movement by a long shot, but dammit it's SOMETHING, something we've been lacking for the last 4 years as people have just rolled over and taken it up the ass from these gobsh!tes. Now a small group of people have finally had enough and tried to start a dissent movement and they're being ridiculed by so many people - people who are ALSO being screwed over by the banks!!!

Every single person in this thread is paying tax in some form or another. Every single person in this thread is having money taken from them to pay for idiotic mistakes by others.

IMO, anyone who ridicules or bashes this movement is indirectly saying "you know what, I don't really five a f***".

Apathy, ladies and gentlemen. The scourge of our society.

when people in america are protesting against unbridled capitalism , you know something is up

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Its worse than that @Permabear

They are blaming the financial sector when the should be directing their anger at politicians,
it was politicians who decided on regulation issues,
it was politicians who moved the world financial system of gold standard,
it was politicians who got to influence central bank to flood the world with cheap money,
it was politicians who decided to bailout banks instead of letting the rotten apples fall

20Cent

The New York Times is paying attention now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1


"It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself. It is also the first line of defense against a return to the Wall Street ways that plunged the nation into an economic crisis from which it has yet to emerge."

20Cent

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Its worse than that @Permabear

They are blaming the financial sector when the should be directing their anger at politicians,
it was politicians who decided on regulation issues,
it was politicians who moved the world financial system of gold standard,
it was politicians who got to influence central bank to flood the world with cheap money,
it was politicians who decided to bailout banks instead of letting the rotten apples fall

The financial sector own the politicians that's what they are trying to change.
They are protesting the the correct place.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

The financial sector own the politicians that's what they are trying to change.
They are protesting the the correct place.

Really? AIB/BOI/Anglo own FG/Labour ministers that got voted in
thats news to me :rolleyes:

Since the Regulator/Centralbank is on Dame street that should tell you that the need for reform lies with this state owned agency, the same agency whose employees collected paychecks while not doing their jobs.

Scofflaw

There is a major dissenting movement against the financial sector. It involves the short-selling of financial stocks, an effective vote of no confidence in the banks and the governments that undergird them.

Er, no, that's not a movement against the financial sector - it's a movement by the financial sector against government action in the sector.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers

20Cent wrote: »

The New York Times is paying attention now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/opinion/sunday/protesters-against-wall-street.html?_r=1


"It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself. It is also the first line of defense against a return to the Wall Street ways that plunged the nation into an economic crisis from which it has yet to emerge."

lol, wrong thread they're not too interested in the Dame Street protest

O'Coonassa

Scofflaw wrote: »

And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

What specifically do you find to be unrealistic about demanding a more direct form of democracy with a view to getting a more just solution to the problems with the monetary system?

People like you once said that the Universal franchise was unrealistic. I bet they'd feel like right idiots now if they weren't dead.

The Occupy Protests are part of a Global Movement of the people for the people by the people. You're either for the People or against them. Pick a side.

Scofflaw

O'Coonassa wrote: »

What specifically do you find to be unrealistic about demanding a more direct form of democracy with a view to getting a more just solution to the problems with the monetary system?

People like you once said that the Universal franchise was unrealistic. I bet they'd feel like right idiots now if they weren't dead.

The Occupy Protests are part of a Global Movement of the people for the people by the people. You're either for the People or against them. Pick a side.

To which the only deserved response is that in fact I'm the one on the side of the people, obviously. How can I tell? Well, 99.99733% of the people aren't at the protest in Dame Street, and I'm one of them.

amused,
Scofflaw