‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

hatrickpatrick

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps because I might get a response like that, given the level of analysis displayed so far by the protesters. Or perhaps because I'm already doing what I think is worthwhile.

charmed,
Scofflaw

Then why don't you share it with the rest of us? Reading your posts all I get from your comments is resignation, "this is the situation, we're stuck with it, tough sh*t."

I cannot and will never, ever resign myself in that way. What has happened here is fundamentally wrong on so many levels and no one with a shred of conscience could possibly defend it.
While I'm not accusing you of defending it, I do get the impression that you're telling people to accept it and not resist.
Could I offer a rather controversial comparison here and suggest that if you'd been around in the early 1900s with this attitude, you would have told the Irish War of Independence supporters that they were wasting their time and that British rule was invincible, they may as well just stay at home.

History has, in my view, proven this sort of resigned pessimism wrong time and time again.

Permabear

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Nate--IRL--

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Then why don't you share it with the rest of us? Reading your posts all I get from your comments is resignation, "this is the situation, we're stuck with it, tough sh*t."

I cannot and will never, ever resign myself in that way. What has happened here is fundamentally wrong on so many levels and no one with a shred of conscience could possibly defend it.
While I'm not accusing you of defending it, I do get the impression that you're telling people to accept it and not resist.

The point I believe he is trying to make, is that the point of no return for this problem has passed (2008 to be exact). There is no solution, that opportunity is gone, the only choices now are which avenue is going to cause the least damage long term to the country.

Nate

laoch na mona

at least it shows the government we are not happy

Permabear

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laoch na mona

but if we stay quiet were easier to ignore

Permabear

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laoch na mona

fair point I'm just an optimist

Lukker-

Permabear wrote: »

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You suggest they just take whats given to them?

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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Do they? Is that why they have taken some serious pay cuts in solidarity with the rest of us? Is that why the new PS pension rules won't affect one single person currently employed or elected? Is that why senior civil servants, TDs and county managers will still walk away with obscene pensions? Is that why we subsidise private schools to the tune of 100 million euro a year but are cutting SNAs in National schools....I could go on and on and on...

The government may have a inkling but that have done precious little to demonstrate that the 'pain' is being shared equally...

FG need to realise that they were swept in to power on a wave of anger at FF and can be swept out again just as easily...

Labour need to realise that they were voted in to curb FG to a great extent not fill the role held by the Greens in the last Government.

We have a choice - we can take it on the chin, knuckle down and pay the debts heaped upon us without our permission and accept the 'there's a good [unprotesting] Paddy' comments coming out of Europe or we can stand up for ourselves and demand change. And keep demanding it. Over and over and over until we succeed.
I for one am sick of accepting it and will be attending Occupy Cork next Saturday with my son and my two grandchildren. I am going to fight for a better future for them as my grandparents fought for a better future for me.

Nate--IRL--

Bannasidhe wrote: »

....or we can stand up for ourselves and demand change. And keep demanding it. Over and over and over until we succeed.
I

Please elaborate on what it is you want to change and more importantly what would you determine a success?

Nate

Permabear

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Bannasidhe

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Please elaborate on what it is you want to change and more importantly what would you determine a success?

Nate

Change is when we have a political system in which our public representative must answer for their actions - not ride off into the sunset like Ahern, Cowen and Haughey before them etc etc before them free to enjoy enormous pensions.

Change is when government/Quango appointments are open and transparent - not favours to be gifted to political insiders.

Last Thursday, the gents from the NTMA came to tea with the Dail's Public Accounts Committee (PAC). Led by arch-insider John Corrigan, eight clean-shaven, grey-haired male plutocrats of a similar vintage took their seats and eyeballed us. John alone sported a beard.

The nine immortals sitting opposite us probably bagged total benefits of more than €3m in 2010's tough times. Despite the NTMA's culture of secrecy, we know -- thanks to a question from TD Michael McGrath -- that 14 of the top brass received more than €250,000 in that year of national sacrifice. The average salary of its 306 staff amounted to a staggering €98,000. And 84 per cent of them received added bonuses. The average bonus came to €7,681. Not a bad place to work.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-ntma-immortals-win-again-2900669.html

Change is when the ridiculous level of centralisation is reversed and local government becomes responsible for, and accountable to, the communities they serve.

Change is when we see those caught with their hands in the cookie jar of public monies face legal action.

Change is when 166 TDs cannot claim close to 8 million euro between them in expenses as happened in 2009

In total, TDs claimed a whopping €7,825,467 in 2009 compared to €7,792,970 during the previous 12 months. When added to the expenses and allowances claimed by the 60 members of Seanad Eireann, the taxpayer picked up a tab of over €10m in expenses for members of both houses of the Oireachtas. The total spend on Oireachtas expenses in the past five years stands at over €50m, according to collated figures. [/UNQUOTE] http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-share-in-expenses-jackpot-as-claims-hit-83648m-2007224.html

Success is when we have - to use that hoary old phrase beloved of Americans - Government By the people, Of the people, For the people. It may not happen in my life time - but that doesn't mean I can't try and see that it happens within my granddaughters.

Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

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I think the Labour Party (of which I used to be a member) need to learn that they too can be sent off into the political wilderness, as can FG.

We can create an alternative to SF you know. We have an opportunity to seize the day and force change - but only if we have the will. If we accept the status quo - then we will be stuck with the status quo. I would rather go down trying...

Yes - they fought for Irish self-determination. We had that in at least 26 counties until FF sold us down the river.

Yes - My grandmother led the protests against women having to retire at 60 while men could retire at 66.

I am not prepared to look my grandchildren in the eye and say - yes, you have this debt to pay off because of unbridled greed, lack of regulation and accountability and because our government never felt the need to consult the people as to our wishes and I did not protest.

Nate--IRL--

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Change is when we have a political system in which our public representative must answer for their actions - not ride off into the sunset like Ahern, Cowen and Haughey before them etc etc before them free to enjoy enormous pensions.

Change is when government/Quango appointments are open and transparent - not favours to be gifted to political insiders. http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-ntma-immortals-win-again-2900669.html

Change is when the ridiculous level of centralisation is reversed and local government becomes responsible for, and accountable to, the communities they serve.

Change is when we see those caught with their hands in the cookie jar of public monies face legal action.

Change is when 166 TDs cannot claim close to 8 million euro between them in expenses as happened in 2009 In total, TDs claimed a whopping €7,825,467 in 2009 compared to €7,792,970 during the previous 12 months. When added to the expenses and allowances claimed by the 60 members of Seanad Eireann, the taxpayer picked up a tab of over €10m in expenses for members of both houses of the Oireachtas. The total spend on Oireachtas expenses in the past five years stands at over €50m, according to collated figures. [/UNQUOTE] http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-share-in-expenses-jackpot-as-claims-hit-83648m-2007224.html

Success is when we have - to use that hoary old phrase beloved of Americans - Government By the people, Of the people, For the people. It may not happen in my life time - but that doesn't mean I can't try and see that it happens within my granddaughters.

I wholeheartedly agree with every single bit of that. No complaints there at all.

Unfortunately it won't help us in our current situation though, even if everything you propose is changed tonight. That is not a dismissal of your arguments, it's just that they are minuscule compared to the trough of shít we're in now.

Nate

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Then why don't you share it with the rest of us? Reading your posts all I get from your comments is resignation, "this is the situation, we're stuck with it, tough sh*t."

I cannot and will never, ever resign myself in that way. What has happened here is fundamentally wrong on so many levels and no one with a shred of conscience could possibly defend it.
While I'm not accusing you of defending it, I do get the impression that you're telling people to accept it and not resist.
Could I offer a rather controversial comparison here and suggest that if you'd been around in the early 1900s with this attitude, you would have told the Irish War of Independence supporters that they were wasting their time and that British rule was invincible, they may as well just stay at home.

History has, in my view, proven this sort of resigned pessimism wrong time and time again.

That assumes that all that's going on is resigned pessimism, though. To be fair, I've been so outright dismissive of the protesters' aims that I haven't really covered the alternative answers to them.

1. get the troika out of Ireland. We already know how to do this - fix the State's finances. Since fixing the State's finances is something we need to do anyway, I can't see the point of it. As far as I can see, the objection is essentially that we can't do things "our way". Now, if I genuinely felt that any Irish party or group was capable of a completely balanced and objective appraisal of what was needed to get the State's finances in order and the economy back on its feet, and had the vision, the guts, and the support to do it, I would happily call for the removal of the troika.

Unfortunately, though, our way is actually to take account of the voting power of vested interests, and in the main the objections to the troika appear to revolve around specific interests, be they sectoral, geographical, or socio-economic, feeling that their particular interests are not being adequately looked after. So the call is really to abandon a programme agreed with an external party with experience in these matters, and substitute a programme determined by the conflicting wishes of interest groups and based largely on who can shout loudest.

So that's a no from me - I'd rather get rid of the troika by working through the required austerity backed up and agreed with a neutral outside force.

2. "that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted". So after all the expenditure and effort involved in capitalising the banks, the money is simply withdrawn, and the banks collapse? Again, I prefer - at this point - to see the banks restored as far as possible to health, and sold off to recoup as much of the money as possible.

3. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”. Eh, I've been over this one repeatedly. First and foremost, they've never left the people, so I assume what's meant is nationalising what has been found. We have an attractive tax regime because we're hoping to attract oil companies to explore our offshore, something we can't afford to gamble on ourselves (particularly given the very disappointing results to date). The idea that nationalising the known reserves will yield something worth the inevitable difficulties that result from the action is based entirely on wishful thinking and imaginary numbers dreamed up by a journalist.

4. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland. Sure, who isn't in favour of that? I'll have some apple pie with mine. The slogan is meaningless - and if it means "direct democracy", I'll admit to cynicism. The referendums due at the end of the month look to pass without either debate or comprehension, and I can't help but note the protesters are doing nothing to highlight that, even though presumably it's exactly the kind of issue of concern.

So I wouldn't accept that my attitude is the result of 'resigned pessimism' - instead, it's because what the protesters are calling for is either meaningless or deluded. As I said earlier, marks for effort, no marks for intelligence.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bannasidhe

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I wholeheartedly agree with every single bit of that. No complaints there at all.

Unfortunately it won't help us in our current situation though, even if everything you propose is changed tonight. That is not a dismissal of your arguments, it's just that they are minuscule compared to the trough of shít we're in now.

Nate

No it won't - but it may ensure we, as a people, are never placed in this situation again.

Who knew when a bunch of drag queens and diesel dykes rioted in NY city in 1969 that one day an openly Gay man would be running for the presidency of Ireland?

Who knew when 42 year old Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus in 1955 that she would spark a movement that would one day see a Black Man elected President of the U.S?

Who knew when Suffragist Emily Davidson died under the hooves of King George V's horse at Epsom in 1913 that one day a woman would be elected PM of the UK 3 times, or that the U.S. would have women as the 66th and 67th Secretaries of State?

Who knew when the Chartists issued their demands for electoral reform in 1838 and were brutally repressed that by 1918 all but one of their demands (Parliament to be elected annually) would have been met?

Who knew when 207 unemployed shipworkers walked the 300 miles to London on the Jarrow Crusade in 1936 to protest that their families were starving that by 1946 a cradle to grave welfare system would be introduced in the UK?

Who knew in 1916 when a motley collection of Irish Volunteers and the Citizen's Army occupied sites in Dublin and declared the Irish Republic that less then 100 years later 3/4s of the island of Ireland would have gained it's sovereignty only to allow it to slip away due to government folly?

Every journey starts with a single step -

Permabear

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Jippohead

Permabear wrote: »

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So should the Irish people just shrug and live with their mistakes or try to rectify them?

Scofflaw

Jippohead wrote: »

So should the Irish people just shrug and live with their mistakes or try to rectify them?

Rectify them, certainly - but simply rejecting the unpleasant consequences doesn't do anything towards rectifying the mistakes. If anything, it tends to perpetuate them, since you know you can reject the consequences afterwards.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

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Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As a professional historian - trust me - I am all too aware of the deficiencies of the Irish State. I also know that political systems will change only if they are forced to. I have had enough of civil war tribal politics, of cronyism and gombeen men. Of boom and bust economics. Of who you know being the key to success in Ireland. I want change -now I believe it is time I stood up and demanded it.

In other words, your grandmother led protests against the state she fought to establish — the same state that would also have prevented people of that generation from using birth control and reading the novels of F. Scott Fitzgerald. The same state that forced women civil servants to retire when they married. Again, when "Irish self-determination" gives rise to illiberal social conservatism, one has to wonder whether it can be unquestionably viewed as a good thing.

Yes, she was a self-educated woman left a widow at a young age with 5 children who was lucky to secure a job in RTE -the marriage Ban didn't effect her as she was a widow. It did effect her next door neighbour and my grandmother often railed about the injustice of it . She was an Old School republican who advocated a United Ireland. Even though a devout Catholic, she marched against the Abortion Referendum in the 1980s as she believed in the Right to Choose, she supported her daughter in securing a divorce from an abusive husband in England in the mid 1970s. Like many republican women, she felt believed in the 20s/30s that in the interests of securing the fragile new little state everyone needed to put the civil war behind them and pull together. She later expressed her grave disappointment at what she felt was the utter betrayal of Irish women by the republican movement.

There was unbridled greed and lack of regulation and accountability in 2002 and 2007, too. Each time the Irish electorate was consulted about their wishes, they re-elected Fianna Fáil governments.

Which is why we need to educate people that there is another way - that the if it's not FF it must be FG cycle can be broken. Who knew 10 years ago that the RRC would lose it's stranglehold on Irish society and that the majority of Irish people would ignore it's claim to be the purveyors of Moral truth in Ireland? Yet, that is exactly what has happened.

Permabear

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Bannasidhe

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

One of my fondest memories is the day I was on the phone to my grandmother during the build-up to the divorce referendum and the local parish priest knocked on the door to 'discuss' divorce. She didn't hang up and the phone was in the Hall by the front door so I heard every word of the conversation (long distance - she cost me a bloody fortune!!). Believe me, by the time she had finished with him he was in no doubt that that particular household was voting with an emphatic YES. The Irish State was not what many of those who fought for wanted. We are slowly beginning to gain the civil liberties those people believed in, we also need to create a political system worthy of them.

Right now, we don't have much of an alternative. We have FG/FG, we have Labour as the political wing of the trade unions, and we have the nationalist/militant far left. With all the "We need a new party!" rhetoric of the past three years, no new party has emerged.

No - we don't have an alternative. But if we sit on our arses being good Paddy for Europe and accepting Paddy for the same meat/different gravy political parties, there will never be an alternative.

If we shrug our shoulders and say 'what can we do!?!' - there will never be an alternative.

Perhaps the best we can do is prevent this insane boom/bust merry-go-round continuing...that would be something.

But maybe, just maybe, if enough of us who live on this wonderful benighted little island stand together - suits and crusties, conservatives and leftys, men and women, old and young, religious and atheist, Irish and Non-Irish we can scare the bejazuz out of the powers that be and force them to realise - they work for us - and we are watching very carefully and taking notes....

20Cent

Scofflaw wrote: »

That assumes that all that's going on is resigned pessimism, though. To be fair, I've been so outright dismissive of the protesters' aims that I haven't really covered the alternative answers to them.

1. get the troika out of Ireland. We already know how to do this - fix the State's finances. Since fixing the State's finances is something we need to do anyway, I can't see the point of it. As far as I can see, the objection is essentially that we can't do things "our way". Now, if I genuinely felt that any Irish party or group was capable of a completely balanced and objective appraisal of what was needed to get the State's finances in order and the economy back on its feet, and had the vision, the guts, and the support to do it, I would happily call for the removal of the troika.

Unfortunately, though, our way is actually to take account of the voting power of vested interests, and in the main the objections to the troika appear to revolve around specific interests, be they sectoral, geographical, or socio-economic, feeling that their particular interests are not being adequately looked after. So the call is really to abandon a programme agreed with an external party with experience in these matters, and substitute a programme determined by the conflicting wishes of interest groups and based largely on who can shout loudest.

So that's a no from me - I'd rather get rid of the troika by working through the required austerity backed up and agreed with a neutral outside force.

2. "that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted". So after all the expenditure and effort involved in capitalising the banks, the money is simply withdrawn, and the banks collapse? Again, I prefer - at this point - to see the banks restored as far as possible to health, and sold off to recoup as much of the money as possible.

3. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”. Eh, I've been over this one repeatedly. First and foremost, they've never left the people, so I assume what's meant is nationalising what has been found. We have an attractive tax regime because we're hoping to attract oil companies to explore our offshore, something we can't afford to gamble on ourselves (particularly given the very disappointing results to date). The idea that nationalising the known reserves will yield something worth the inevitable difficulties that result from the action is based entirely on wishful thinking and imaginary numbers dreamed up by a journalist.

4. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland. Sure, who isn't in favour of that? I'll have some apple pie with mine. The slogan is meaningless - and if it means "direct democracy", I'll admit to cynicism. The referendums due at the end of the month look to pass without either debate or comprehension, and I can't help but note the protesters are doing nothing to highlight that, even though presumably it's exactly the kind of issue of concern.

So I wouldn't accept that my attitude is the result of 'resigned pessimism' - instead, it's because what the protesters are calling for is either meaningless or deluded. As I said earlier, marks for effort, no marks for intelligence.

cordially,
Scofflaw

To cut a long story short you are doing nothing then?

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

To cut a long story short you are doing nothing then?

While myself and Scofflaw often disagree on things, it seems he understands that this protest is misdirected

meglome

ei.sdraob wrote: »

While myself and Scofflaw often disagree on things, it seems he understands that this protest is misdirected

While I can admire the determination that some people are showing, while I can admire their passion I can't admire or fail to notice they are trying the ignore the reality we are already in.

It's a real pity when there are so many things to actually protest about they chose to do this.

Bannasidhe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

While myself and Scofflaw often disagree on things, it seems he understands that this protest is misdirected

and to shrug, accept the situation, dismiss those who do protest is to give tacit consent to government to continue their current tactics.

If you think our government is acting in the best interests of the majority of the people. Then grand. I don't.

If you think our government has demonstrated that it is serious about ending the political culture that led us to this place. That's grand. I don't.

If you think the members of our government are honestly sharing the financial pain with the citizenry. That's grand. I don't.

If you think our government has the political will to ensure those who acted unethically, Illegally or failed utterly to undertake the roles they were tasked with will be held accountable and face the consequences for their actions. That's grand. I don't.

If you think it is acceptable that FG/Labour were elected on a platform of specific promises but are unwilling/unable to follow through on those promises and simply echo the FF/Green mantra of 'Its the IMF/ECB what are stopping us. Honest.' That's Grand. I don't.

If you think it is acceptable that insiders continue to be appointed to quangos and consultancy positions with salaries of c1/4 million +. That's grand. I don't.

If you think the protest is misdirected - where do you think it should be directed?
If you think the protest is misdirected - how do we redirect it?

If you do not add your voice and your opinions - you are condemning yourself to silence.

If you agree with the status quo - that's grand. Stay silent.

If you believe things must change - get out and say so. Or nothing will change.

ei.sdraob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you think the protest is misdirected - where do you think it should be directed?

Outside the Dail


If you are going to protest outside the Central bank (who are merely puppets to the ECB anyways) then at least protest about
* them not doing their job in past,
* and nothing being done about them not doing their job,
* and nothing being put in place to prevent them not doing their job again.

meglome

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and to shrug, accept the situation, dismiss those who do protest is to give tacit consent to government to continue their current tactics.

If you think our government is acting in the best interests of the majority of the people. Then grand. I don't.

If you think our government has demonstrated that it is serious about ending the political culture that led us to this place. That's grand. I don't.

If you think the members of our government are honestly sharing the financial pain with the citizenry. That's grand. I don't.

If you think our government has the political will to ensure those who acted unethically, Illegally or failed utterly to undertake the roles they were tasked with will be held accountable and face the consequences for their actions. That's grand. I don't.

If you think it is acceptable that FG/Labour were elected on a platform of specific promises but are unwilling/unable to follow through on those promises and simply echo the FF/Green mantra of 'Its the IMF/ECB what are stopping us. Honest.' That's Grand. I don't.

If you think it is acceptable that insiders continue to be appointed to quangos and consultancy positions with salaries of c1/4 million +. That's grand. I don't.

If you do not add your voice and your opinions - you are condemning yourself to silence.

If you agree with the status quo - that's grand. Stay silent.

If you believe things must change - get out and say so. Or nothing will change.

Interestingly I agree with most of what you said there. However the stated aims of the protest, clearly set out in their 4 points (plan?!?!), are not what you just stated. So if you're asking me should we protest about most of the things in your post then yes we should. If you're asking me to support a protest that is chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary things then no sorry.... pointless.