Class Rep training junket?

LeixlipRed

Anyone from the SU want to comment on the rumours that the SU are paying for class rep training to be held in a hotel this year as opposed to the normal procedure of having it locally? I'm just not exactly sure why anyone in their right mind could think in this current economic climate that it was ok to piss away students' money on such frivolous rubbish. It's only a rumour I know but perhaps someone could enlighten us?

Fbjm

Banquo said that today in english; I'd say that's why there were so many potential candidates actually. To quote half of them after being asked why they were up for it: "and sure the hotel sounds like good craic".

Seren_

It would probably most certainly be good craic, but unless some sort of grant is given for things like this, then every student in Maynooth's money is paying for it.

Fbjm

yeah, it's being paid for by the 93 euro we all paid at the start of the year to the SU.

LeixlipRed

So it is true. Even if it were being paid for by a grant that's still some taxpayers' money. It's a complete and utter disgrace. Funny how it corresponds with the election of known FF member to the SU executive. The party of junkets. Hold the training on campus which will cost nothing but the money for some food for lunch. I await the response were the excuse is something like this: "oh but we had to, sure you need a proper room to have a real training exercise in, we all couldn't hold hands while we get pissed in SU room 3-4, it's simply not big enough".

mp3guy

Tbh, there are plenty of things each year that the SU money is spent on which I have no interest in and don't benefit from. I've learned to just stop caring.

I would however like to see a breakdown of the €93 at the end of the year to see exactly how much of it went where.

LeixlipRed

Those of you who were about last year will get this one:

5,000 yellow t-shirts: 25 grand.

Kinski

Eh? What's that about tshirts?

XxMCRxBabyxX

Kinski wrote: »

Eh? What's that about tshirts?

The tshirts for the protest last year

banquo

mp3guy wrote: »

I would however like to see a breakdown of the €93 at the end of the year to see exactly how much of it went where.

That we can do, and will be doing shortly.

On the hotel thing, I can see how someone could read 'SU people go to hotel' and see it as a random night out for class reps for the craic. It's not. There's not a hope in hell I would sign that cheque.

I would also note that in the current economic climate, an effective, representative Union is needed more than ever. Also, there is no 'normal procedure' because we don't usually have class rep training.

Reasons to have Class Rep Training:

An effective class rep system is the only way any Students' Union can realistically be in any way representative. We haven't had a genuine level of representation in years, so we're taking a few steps this year to put the Union to work. There are a few steps involved.

1. Getting Class Reps. Going from lecture to lecture explaining what a Class Rep is, does and then electing as many as that class requires.

2. Class rep training, which every other college does, hasn't been done by us in years. Without any kind of guidance or skills a Class Rep isn't much use to their class. So we're taking everyone away to the cheapest room and board we could find that would fit everyone and has the rooms we need for two full days modules and then Union Council.

We started off looking at hostels and B&Bs, but there's not one in the country that can fit 120-150 people for a night. Most hotels would even struggle at that. The hotel we're going to is the cheapest we could find.

3. Making sure that people in the class know who their Class Rep is.

I've to leg it upstairs to a capitation meeting now, but if anyone wants me to elaborate on anything here they can either email me or post it here.

*Rob

XxMCRxBabyxX

banquo wrote: »

mp3guy wrote: »

I would however like to see a breakdown of the €93 at the end of the year to see exactly how much of it went where.

That we can do, and will be doing shortly.

On the hotel thing, I can see how someone could read 'SU people go to hotel' and see it as a random night out for class reps for the craic. It's not. There's not a hope in hell I would sign that cheque.

I would also note that in the current economic climate, an effective, representative Union is needed more than ever. Also, there is no 'normal procedure' because we don't usually have class rep training.

Reasons to have Class Rep Training:

An effective class rep system is the only way any Students' Union can realistically be in any way representative. We haven't had a genuine level of representation in years, so we're taking a few steps this year to put the Union to work. There are a few steps involved.

1. Getting Class Reps. Going from lecture to lecture explaining what a Class Rep is, does and then electing as many as that class requires.

2. Class rep training, which every other college does, hasn't been done by us in years. Without any kind of guidance or skills a Class Rep isn't much use to their class. So we're taking everyone away to the cheapest room and board we could find that would fit everyone and has the rooms we need for two full days modules and then Union Council.

We started off looking at hostels and B&Bs, but there's not one in the country that can fit 120-150 people for a night. Most hotels would even struggle at that. The hotel we're going to is the cheapest we could find.

3. Making sure that people in the class know who their Class Rep is.

I've to leg it upstairs to a capitation meeting now, but if anyone wants me to elaborate on anything here they can either email me or post it here.

*Rob

Why a hotel? What's wrong with using campus? Even putting some commuters up in St. Pats if really necessary?

I'm all in favour of the training. Just not what seems like a waste of an expense

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

So it is true. Even if it were being paid for by a grant that's still some taxpayers' money. It's a complete and utter disgrace. Funny how it corresponds with the election of known FF member to the SU executive. The party of junkets. Hold the training on campus which will cost nothing but the money for some food for lunch. I await the response were the excuse is something like this: "oh but we had to, sure you need a proper room to have a real training exercise in, we all couldn't hold hands while we get pissed in SU room 3-4, it's simply not big enough".

*types quickly*

You'll find that in every college that does this - and we consulted plenty in planning this - that people turn up for the food, head off down the town or off with their mates and skip the modules, the point of class rep training, and come back for the dinner. Doesn't work. You gotta get everyone in the one place and keep them there.

banquo

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Why a hotel? What's wrong with using campus? Even putting some commuters up in St. Pats if really necessary?

Originally we wanted to do a 'campus swap' with one of the Dublin colleges, but there wasn't enough room for their class reps in St. Pats accommodation and the Glenroyal combined!

XxMCRxBabyxX

banquo wrote: »

LeixlipRed wrote: »

So it is true. Even if it were being paid for by a grant that's still some taxpayers' money. It's a complete and utter disgrace. Funny how it corresponds with the election of known FF member to the SU executive. The party of junkets. Hold the training on campus which will cost nothing but the money for some food for lunch. I await the response were the excuse is something like this: "oh but we had to, sure you need a proper room to have a real training exercise in, we all couldn't hold hands while we get pissed in SU room 3-4, it's simply not big enough".

*types quickly*

You'll find that in every college that does this - and we consulted plenty in planning this - that people turn up for the food, head off down the town or off with their mates and skip the modules, the point of class rep training, and come back for the dinner. Doesn't work. You gotta get everyone in the one place and keep them there.

That can easily be done in a hotel either...

XxMCRxBabyxX

banquo wrote: »

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Why a hotel? What's wrong with using campus? Even putting some commuters up in St. Pats if really necessary?

Originally we wanted to do a 'campus swap' with one of the Dublin colleges, but there wasn't enough room for their class reps in St. Pats accommodation and the Glenroyal combined!

Forget about swaps! Use our own campus!

All I can see this doing is attracting the people who want the freebies

LeixlipRed

banquo wrote: »

*types quickly*

You'll find that in every college that does this - and we consulted plenty in planning this - that people turn up for the food, head off down the town or off with their mates and skip the modules, the point of class rep training, and come back for the dinner. Doesn't work. You gotta get everyone in the one place and keep them there.

That's rubbish and you know it. How many people are you putting up in this hotel and how much is it costing? These are the same sort of excuses politicians roll out, you do realise that don't you? Oh but we had to have it in a hotel, we also had to go for the deluxe lunch because people wouldn't have the energy for all the meetings if they just ate soup, so on so forth. The lot of you are a disgrace, should be ashamed of yourselves.

What I want to know is:

-Who chose the hotel? Who was consulted about that decision?
-Where is the hotel? How many people are being accommodated for the weekend? Is everyone staying overnight? Will there be a piss up/party as the main event in the evening?
-How much is it costing as opposed to if you held it on campus over one day?

LeixlipRed

banquo wrote: »

Originally we wanted to do a 'campus swap' with one of the Dublin colleges, but there wasn't enough room for their class reps in St. Pats accommodation and the Glenroyal combined!

Ffs, why would you even need to swap? The idea that another SU would even consider putting people up in the Glenroyal for free just illuminates what most people already know, people get involved in the SU for freebies, junkets and the cv.

Seren_

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Forget about swaps! Use our own campus!

All I can see this doing is attracting the people who want the freebies

That's my problem with it too. When people hear "free hotel" and "free food" they're going to go for it regardless of being interested in being a class rep or not.

I actually wasn't aware that this was the first year that class rep training was being held. It is a very good thing for students here, but I just feel that campus would have been a good enough venue to hold it in.

If class reps are uncomfortable with students' money being used to pay for the training, has a procedure been put in place to allow them to pay for the hotel etc with their own money?

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

That's rubbish and you know it. How many people are you putting up in this hotel and how much is it costing? These are the same sort of excuses politicians roll out, you do realise that don't you? Oh but we had to have it in a hotel, we also had to go for the deluxe lunch because people wouldn't have the energy for all the meetings if they just ate soup, so on so forth. The lot of you are a disgrace, should be ashamed of yourselves.

What I want to know is:

-Who chose the hotel? Who was consulted about that decision?
-Where is the hotel? How many people are being accommodated for the weekend? Is everyone staying overnight? Will there be a piss up/party as the main event in the evening?
-How much is it costing as opposed to if you held it on campus over one day?

I don't get the references to politicians, or where these 'deluxe lunches' are coming from.

We would love to host it on campus for next to nothing, but hosting it on campus doesn't work. It's never worked. When all classes are taken into account, you need about 130/140 Class Reps for NUIM / St. Pat's. One of the modules is how the Universities work - their internal structure, who to go to with particular problems, correct methods of appeal, etc. It's a lot of facts and logistics and can be pretty boring stuff. Whether or not someone is there for the freebies, if we have them captive for the module they'll know the stuff by the end, and the class won't have elected someone who has absolutely no idea how to help them.

If you have it on campus then people just wander off for the modules back to their house / down the town / anywhere but a 90 minute talk on their long list of responsibilities as a class rep.

LeixlipRed

And I'm saying that's complete and utter rubbish. If people wander off and don't attend then having them booted out. Make attendance mandatory. These people are supposed to be adults and if they want a free lunch then let them sit in a room all day while the training takes place for free on campus.

And the other stuff was me implying that you lot are nothing better than politicians

banquo

1. I can't kick class reps out. They were democratically elected.
2. 'Attendance is mandatory' comes with zero repercussions for not attending.
3. :pac:

LeixlipRed

Democratically elected with the proviso that they actually fulfill their roles. Also, I still want answers to the questions I posted above. You know well you've been caught with the pants down on this one, cancel it now before it grows legs and we'll let you take the credit

the_observer

Oh dear.

Tesco Massacre

But it's slightly tricky to corral between 120-150 students into a hotel without quite a few using it as a jolly for a couple of days, no? I.e. they'll do exactly what they did when you held these training exercises on campus, except this time it'll be in a hotel that other students are paying for.

LeixlipRed

I'm sure our friends over at the student observer will get to the bottom of this

cython

banquo wrote: »

1. I can't kick class reps out. They were democratically elected.
2. 'Attendance is mandatory' comes with zero repercussions for not attending.
3. :pac:

All that seems like the SU constitution and rules have taken some steps back over the years so, as I remember a time when a class rep who missed 2 consecutive UCs in a row was deemed to have resigned. I cannot quote the constitution stating this, but it was something told to us at the time as reps, so may have been scaremongering either. Regardless, the current constitution looks to have no repercussions whatsoever for dereliction of duties by a class rep, which seems very naive.

Would it really have been that difficult to include a requirement of at least attendance at a minimum number of UCs and training, with repercussions for non attendance being that they are deemed to be resigned, and a new rep can thus be elected in their stead? At this point, anyone (barring, perhaps, a minority of first years) who is elected a class rep is legally an adult, and should be treated as such.

Can you imagine the reaction if any other "elected" representatives were sent away for training in this manner on the basis that they wouldn't attend if it were done locally or in house? I'm pretty sure USI and Maynooth SU would be out protesting if it was done for TDs or similar, so why are you different? And the final crux of this - if you have this little faith in people to attend training, what makes you think they are going to bother their holes fulfilling the duties that you are tasking them with? This smacks of being a feel good, pat-yourselves-on-the-back-lads exercise within the SU, where you can tell yourselves you tried to give an effective system.

And this comes from someone who was a rep way back when, possibly before any of the current exec were even in the college, when class rep training was done, and done in house, and guess what - we turned up!

LeixlipRed

Tesco Massacre wrote: »

But it's slightly tricky to corral between 120-150 students into a hotel without quite a few using it as a jolly for a couple of days, no? I.e. they'll do exactly what they did when you held these training exercises on campus, except this time it'll be in a hotel that other students are paying for.

But surely they'll choose a hotel out in the middle of nowhere? You know, somewhere expensive

LeixlipRed

I was a little worried when I posted this up that people's response would be, "there's that lefty bastard moaning again" But I'm heartened by the fact that, contrary to what we're constantly told, some students here do actually give a **** about how the university and SU spend their money.

the_observer

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm sure our friends over at the student observer will get to the bottom of this

We're already working on the article

Tesco Massacre

LeixlipRed wrote: »

But surely they'll choose a hotel out in the middle of nowhere? You know, somewhere expensive

And presumably with no bar.

I'd be interested to know where this is taking place & how much it's costing.

LeixlipRed

Well obviously, people only skip modules when they're pissed out of their faces. It'll be like an episode of Boardwalk Empire, high on tension and not a drop of alcohol to be found.

the_observer

We'd love to hear what people think about this by the way, if anyone's willing to fire us an email studentobserverireland@gmail.com we'd be greatly appreciative.

Ataxia

Yay controversy!

So several questions:

1. What is the content of this training? Why does it take so long? Can some of it be printed out on handouts and read in their spare time?

2. Clubs & Socs training is held in the evenings but the SU still seems to think it's reasonable to assume that people will show up without free accomodation (and indeed attendance is mandatory). Why is this different?

3. What kind of class rep is attracted by the promise of a free piss up in a hotel and why do you imagine they would make good student representatives?

4. Why not take attendance at all the modules and then email out a list of all the absentees if you're worried about people only showing up for the food?

XxMCRxBabyxX

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I was a little worried when I posted this up that people's response would be, "there's that lefty bastard moaning again" But I'm heartened by the fact that, contrary to what we're constantly told, some students here do actually give a **** about how the university and SU spend their money.

For once you and I actually agree! :-D

LeixlipRed

Aww, shucks :P

eogriffin

Less of the love in, more of the controversy!

Kiwi_knock

It is a cheap tactic to get people involved in the SU. No point addressing why so many feel a disconnect with the SU, lets just throw money at the problem.

There has been no convincing argument why the training needs to be held off campus. I do not see how a weekend away is going to make people better class reps compared to what could be offered on campus. And the fact that the Exec thinks students who are interested in free trips are the future of the SU is very worrying.

Can not wait for the Facebook pictures of this informative and worthwhile weekend.

Ostrom

Is this going on for more than one day, and if so, are students being put up in said hotel?

the_observer

Short piece on the story so far, more coming tomorrow:

http://stobserver.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/msu-to-train-class-reps-in-a-hotel/

Ostrom

Not another ...-gate

Also the other half is sitting across from me, she was elected class rep last week (other college) and I picked her up from training yesterday evening.

They were kept for 8 hours and a got a set dinner from it - can anyone confirm if they are staying for the night or is this just about the cost of a suitable meeting room for one day?

the_observer

efla wrote: »

Not another ...-gate

Sorry, we're gits for a cliche.

Also, we'll look into confirming that for you if we can

cython

efla wrote: »

Not another ...-gate

Also the other half is sitting across from me, she was elected class rep last week (other college) and I picked her up from training yesterday evening.

They were kept for 8 hours and a got a set dinner from it - can anyone confirm if they are staying for the night or is this just about the cost of a suitable meeting room for one day?

I presume that since insufficient overnight accommodation here was an obstacle to a campus swap as mentioned earlier, they must be planning on staying for the night. Also, the below from banquo would seem to be confirmation:

banquo wrote: »

We started off looking at hostels and B&Bs, but there's not one in the country that can fit 120-150 people for a night. Most hotels would even struggle at that. The hotel we're going to is the cheapest we could find.

If just for the day, then hostels/B&Bs would be irrelevant

Ostrom

cython wrote: »

I presume that since insufficient overnight accommodation here was an obstacle to a campus swap as mentioned earlier, they must be planning on staying for the night. Also, the below from banquo would seem to be confirmation:

If just for the day, then hostels/B&Bs would be irrelevant

That makes it extra-dodgy, considering a significant proportion of WIT's students commute from Wexford / Kilkenny / West Waterford, and yet still managed to squeeze training into a few hours

edit: @ the observer: sorry, that sounded quite mean! Well done on getting the article out so quick

the_observer

efla wrote: »

edit: @ the observer: sorry, that sounded quite mean! Well done on getting the article out so quick

No worries

Cargin

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

There has been no convincing argument why the training needs to be held off campus. I do not see how a weekend away is going to make people better class reps compared to what could be offered on campus. And the fact that the Exec thinks students who are interested in free trips are the future of the SU is very worrying.

I wholeheartedly agree. The notion that the elected class reps need to be held "captive" is a serious note for concern. Why on earth would we want people like that representing us at all?
If the Exec anticipates that level of commitment, what's to say that after this training course they ever show up to any UC ever again? Are we looking at a 'bums-on-seats' tactic whose sole purpose is to create the appearance of a filled quota, so to speak, of trained Reps?
That we have a brewing scandal here over a high-profile training course whose dominating focus is on enforcing attendance leaves me feeling like any possible agenda for 'doing good' is being surpassed by the suggestion of an agenda for 'looking good'.

Tesco Massacre

We really need to get to the bottom of this before it turns into a crisis.

I propose we meet in the Shelbourne Hotel at noon on Friday, where we shall spend the weekend deliberating on said crisis.

LeixlipRed

The wheels are in motion on a picket of the SU and a petition calling for the cancellation of this trip. If anyone would like to help with this they can contact me by PM. Also, if anyone knows any class reps who are uneasy or unwilling to attend this junket perhaps they could get them to go back to their classes and ask their class what they think about?

Ian Beale

banquo wrote: »

I don't get the references to politicians, or where these 'deluxe lunches' are coming from.

We would love to host it on campus for next to nothing, but hosting it on campus doesn't work. It's never worked. When all classes are taken into account, you need about 130/140 Class Reps for NUIM / St. Pat's. One of the modules is how the Universities work - their internal structure, who to go to with particular problems, correct methods of appeal, etc. It's a lot of facts and logistics and can be pretty boring stuff. Whether or not someone is there for the freebies, if we have them captive for the module they'll know the stuff by the end, and the class won't have elected someone who has absolutely no idea how to help them.

If you have it on campus then people just wander off for the modules back to their house / down the town / anywhere but a 90 minute talk on their long list of responsibilities as a class rep.

Having it in a hotel won't change that, chances are you'll get even more people just going for the craic and they'll still wander off anyway.

There is no justification for this expense and quite frankly I wouldn't have voted for you if I had known you'd do something like this. Even get it added to the constitution that class reps have compulsory training on campus. Even if you can't enforce it this year at least the following years will benefit from it.

LeixlipRed

Anyone know what date the training is on? We're a bit confused about that, 14th and 15th of this month is what we think?

TheManHimself

I find it ridiculous that the SU is spending an outrageous amount per class rep on training and hotel accomadation. I mean what the hell is so special about this training that it cant be done on campus, utilising our own facilities to their maximum potential.

The price tag is what is getting people's backs up here, not the very worthy task of offering guidance to incoming class reps.

Although I must say that I personally believe last year's constitution change was a big missed opportunity for having a full open assembly on campus, and allowing any student to participate, the whole exercise of constitutional change seemed geared toward changing minor details in the SU structure rather than broadening campus democracy.

That aside, the SU should reverse this junket, and it is a junket, despite the spin that comes from the Union. There are kids who can't afford to buy lunch in college, and this sorta nonsense just smacks of elitism.

Duddy

I believe the €93 refers to the student levy paid by all students at the start of the year, not a per-class rep amount.