Art O Neill Challenge 2012

My2Cents

Does anyone know if there are any access issues along the route for doing reccies?
From last year, I remember hopping a fence at the back of Kippure lodge and coming back to the road quite close to a farmhouse - is there a right of way here?
Similarly coming down to the second checkpoint we skirted around the back of a house, is this open year round or is permission required?
Don't want to make life difficult for the organisers by inadvertently traipsing across someone's garden!

ElectraX

Anyone else thinking of doing the Hybrid version of this? Don't have the fitness/nav skills for the Ultra but no interest in walking the whole thing either.Like the idea of at least getting in a decent enough run to Kippure before starting the hike.
Would be interedted to hear what training plans anyone had in mind for the hybrid...

My2Cents

ElectraX wrote: »

Anyone else thinking of doing the Hybrid version of this? Don't have the fitness/nav skills for the Ultra but no interest in walking the whole thing either.Like the idea of at least getting in a decent enough run to Kippure before starting the hike.
Would be interedted to hear what training plans anyone had in mind for the hybrid...

I did the hybrid last year, mostly off the back of marathon training early in the year followed by the IMRA league runs over the summer. Didn't do much in terms of specific training bar one 20mile hike.
The run section from Dublin castle to Kippure was handy enough, although I found a run/walk approach was needed to get me over the section from stonecross to Kippure itself.
The leg muscles did tighten up towards the end of the hiking section - particularly the final downhill, but if you're starting from a good base it's definitely doable.
A marathon training plan with a few hikes substituted for the long runs (or a comination of running and hiking) would set you up nicely.

ElectraX

My2Cents wrote: »

A marathon training plan with a few hikes substituted for the long runs (or a comination of running and hiking) would set you up nicely.

Thanks for that suggestion.I'm not really one for long hikes usually so I think my plan is going to be to get out into the mountains for two-three hour runs at least once a week to build fitness.Started with a 15km run today;nearly wussed out due to the weather but then thought if I can't run in the rain,how will I get out in the cold in the middle of the night in January:D
Did you run the solo or were you doing it with others? And when you got to Kippure, were you waiting round long to start the hike section?

jfrice

Hi Everyone,

Would I be kidding myself if I thought this would be a good idea to run this as my first Ultra Marathon?

I have ran a few marathons before and am doing Dublin next week.

Thanks,
J

My2Cents

ElectraX wrote: »

Thanks for that suggestion.I'm not really one for long hikes usually so I think my plan is going to be to get out into the mountains for two-three hour runs at least once a week to build fitness.Started with a 15km run today;nearly wussed out due to the weather but then thought if I can't run in the rain,how will I get out in the cold in the middle of the night in January:D
Did you run the solo or were you doing it with others? And when you got to Kippure, were you waiting round long to start the hike section?

It was sleet/snow most of the night last time so get used to the bad weather!
On the running section I had planned to be on my own but I ended up running with a few people I know from IMRA, there was a pretty big group doing 8-8.5 minute miles. I'd then arranged to meet a couple of friends for the hiking section - we went with a guided group, I think we were the 2nd or 3rd to leave and we had been in about 20 minutes - to be honest you can get going as quickly as you want and the guides/organisers are very good at keeping people moving, the hard part is leaving the warmth!
I'd really recommend getting out for a couple of hikes - for the hybrid you'll be on your feet for about 10-12 hours so it would be good to have a few long hikes in the legs beforehand.

belcarra

jfrice wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

Would I be kidding myself if I thought this would be a good idea to run this as my first Ultra Marathon?

I have ran a few marathons before and am doing Dublin next week.

Thanks,
J

I would suggest the Hybrid event would be perfect for you.
You could run the road section to the stop at Kippure House and then run/hike the remainder. This way you will be under less pressure for your first Ultra and the extra challenges the mountainous terrain and associated navigation will bring.
Also, if you are strong enough you will be in a position to still run the entire course if you are able for it.:)

This will probably be my plan for it anyways!:p

jfrice

belcarra wrote: »

I would suggest the Hybrid event would be perfect for you.
You could run the road section to the stop at Kippure House and then run/hike the remainder. This way you will be under less pressure for your first Ultra and the extra challenges the mountainous terrain and associated navigation will bring.
Also, if you are strong enough you will be in a position to still run the entire course if you are able for it.:)

This will probably be my plan for it anyways!:p

This seems like a good idea. Thanks a lot might go about it that way

Wally Runs

I am also keen to run. I am just not sure about the second phase. Going to try out some after the weekend. It has been some time since I navigated and that was during the day in NZ. On the other hand I bought a head torch!

Git101

Did a recce on the Wicklow gap to Glenmalure section today.

I would love to do this with someone who knows the area, I suspect that the shortest route is not always the best route.

Anybody heading out over the next few weekends that knows the lie of the land ??

donothoponpop

Git101 wrote: »

Did a recce on the Wicklow gap to Glenmalure section today.

I would love to do this with someone who knows the area, I suspect that the shortest route is not always the best route.

Anybody heading out over the next few weekends that knows the lie of the land ??

What route did you take?

Git101

donothoponpop wrote: »

What route did you take?

I don't have access to a map at the moment to put in co-ordinates.

Entry at forestry track just down from Ballinagee bridge. Followed track (cutting out zig zag) through gate to the river. I stayed on the left of the river until just before it's joined by another river flowing from steep ground.

Question: Is it better to cross the river earlier, maybe somewhere near NPWS boundry. The ground on the left is very wet/soft is it any firmer on the right side?

I crossed a river about half way up the valley and took the steep ground to Arts Cross.

Question: Is there a better route?

I took a direct route from Arts Cross to Three Lakes, this involved plenty of climbing in and out of the peat channels.

Question: Is there a better route?

From Three Lakes I aimed for the corner of a forestry plantation (mostly felled now but the corner near the river is still there) and followed the river to a forestry track.

Question: Is it better to head further west for the track to avoid the steep ground along the river?

I intend to cover this route again so I should be able to answer some of my own questions but if anyone any advice I would appreciate it.

donothoponpop

An awful lot of route choice will depend on the conditions on the night/morning. For instance, if the ground is frozen, you'll make good progress across the grass plain to Art's Cross. Different story if you're lifting tired legs through swamp; in this case it makes better sense to keep to higher ground.

Git101 wrote: »

Entry at forestry track just down from Ballinagee bridge. Followed track (cutting out zig zag) through gate to the river. I stayed on the left of the river until just before it's joined by another river flowing from steep ground.

Question: Is it better to cross the river earlier, maybe somewhere near NPWS boundry. The ground on the left is very wet/soft is it any firmer on the right side?

Git101 wrote: »

I crossed a river about half way up the valley and took the steep ground to Arts Cross.

Question: Is there a better route?

Lets assume the ground is frozen, mist is down, making nav difficult. In that case you can make good progess across the frozen plain, and follow the river as you did towards Arts Cross, and ascend here.

But if the ground is sloppy, another option might be to ascend the gradual ridge between the Gleenreemore and Ashbawn rivers- so you cross the river almost immediately after exiting the forest, and begin your ascent, staying 500m west of the Cross. It can be tough going through the heather here, though, and you have to keep your wits about you direction-wise.

Git101 wrote: »

I took a direct route from Arts Cross to Three Lakes, this involved plenty of climbing in and out of the peat channels.

Question: Is there a better route?

Good question! The only advice I could give is to limit the amount of stack climbing you do- its better to expend less energy slaloming around the bases of the peat, with your compass in hand.

Git101 wrote: »

From Three Lakes I aimed for the corner of a forestry plantation (mostly felled now but the corner near the river is still there) and followed the river to a forestry track.

Question: Is it better to head further west for the track to avoid the steep ground along the river?

I was up here yesterday, went from above three lakes to table track. Certainly, once on the track you will make good progress, and your orienteering is done for you to the finish, so this might make a good choice for a tired body and mind. The heather mound over to table track is for the most part quite runnable/walkable. But its a bit more distance than your direct Conavalla route, so again it might come down to conditions deciding route choice. If you're sure of where you are on a map, its a lot easier to nav along a river for a couple of kilometers, than wandering around peat stacks in the mist.

I might go out again in a couple of weeks, to try some variants.

Gravale

This Art Walk End.jpg is the route from the gate out to the Glenreemore Brook, upwards to Art's Cross and across to the river and track leading down to the finish. It's the route I've followed for many years.

mcgratheoin

Git101 wrote: »

Did a recce on the Wicklow gap to Glenmalure section today.

I would love to do this with someone who knows the area, I suspect that the shortest route is not always the best route.

Anybody heading out over the next few weekends that knows the lie of the land ??

We did a bit of the route last Monday (bank holiday). We parked in Glendalough and went over the Wicklow Gap, down to Ballinagee and up to Art's Cross. The mountains were as wet as I ever remember and I definitely would avoid the grassy plain if we have those kinds of deluges again. Crossing the river lower down was not an option and the stream coming down from the west was a bit of a torrent so we just followed the stream up to the east of Art's Cross.
I think that conditions on the night/morning will make much more of a difference than any other factor, so there may not be much point in getting advice based on a single recce.

piglet69

lads,
reading your route choice with interest. I haven't tried this ridge in
years. I recently recced the leg from Ballinagee Bridge to Lough Firrib (LF). From 3028 2003(forest corner) I went up onto Oakwood and then straight on to LF. there's a vague track up to about 500m (shown on eastwest map) and then its thru heather again until you reach the top of Oakwood. from here you can pick up another track.
From LF my plan is to head straight to Conavalla and on to Table Track. anyone any thoughts.

i'm using this option if the ground isn't frozen. if it is i just plan to follow river as far as 3 lakes.

nerraw1111

Where exactly is the three lakes?

I cannot remember passing or seeing any lakes last year? I might've sleep walked past the area last year but from my recollection, the route after the second checkpoint was fairly straightforward no?

Stark

Here: http://osm.org/go/es88a0h7--

The third lake is seasonal, usually you just see two lakes.

Gravale

See it here on the OSI map:

Art Walk End.jpg

Git101

donothoponpop wrote: »

I was up here yesterday, went from above three lakes to table track. Certainly, once on the track you will make good progress, and your orienteering is done for you to the finish, so this might make a good choice for a tired body and mind. The heather mound over to table track is for the most part quite runnable/walkable. But its a bit more distance than your direct Conavalla route, so again it might come down to conditions deciding route choice. If you're sure of where you are on a map, its a lot easier to nav along a river for a couple of kilometers, than wandering around peat stacks in the mist.

I might go out again in a couple of weeks, to try some variants.

Thanks, some good food for thought in your post.

I know that conditions on the day will effect route choices but from a running point of view do you feel it makes more sense to take the longer route from Tree Lakes to Table Track, hitting it at around T025 967 or to take the more direct route along Lough Brook hitting the track at about T035 963 ?

Gravale wrote: »

This Art Walk End.jpg is the route from the gate out to the Glenreemore Brook, upwards to Art's Cross and across to the river and track leading down to the finish. It's the route I've followed for many years.

Almost identical to the route I took except for a bit near Arts Cross.
Did you cut up behind the memorial plaque to ascend towards Arts Cross ?

Gravale

From the plaque I keep on the right of the ascending river for one or two hundred metres until I see the first more prominent boulder. I cross here to the other side and ascend initially by sometimes boggy steps until I'm into a grassy gully leading upwards and leftwards to Art's Cross. Amongst many that I've tried I prefer this approach.

donothoponpop

Git101 wrote: »

I know that conditions on the day will effect route choices but from a running point of view do you feel it makes more sense to take the longer route from Tree Lakes to Table Track, hitting it at around T025 967 or to take the more direct route along Lough Brook hitting the track at about T035 963 ?

At this stage you're going to be fast walking, or jogging at best. The main consideration for this section is getting safely from the forest exit to the table track, without losing time by getting lost. If the ground is frozen, Gravale's route looks promising, and I'd take that. If you were not so sure about your nav capibilities, one might take the Oakwood ridge, and try and find the track from lough Firrab to Conavalla (it's there, but hard to find). But this option adds a fair bit of distance.

I'm far from a nav expert, but I know enough to use each mark on the map for info. So knowing how steep you are climbing (contour lines), or using a track or river to nav along, will get you over. Assuming damp conditions, under mist or cloud, my intention is to exit the forest, cross the river, and ascend the ridge from T026 999 to T033 988. There's not much in the way of track, and nav isn't easy in cloud, but if you're going up, you're going in the right direction. Where it gets flatter towards the top, you have a couple of rivers to stay between.

Then I'll do my best to fight through the peat stacks around three lakes for 1k due SSW (compass in hand). Conavalla isn't much of a target, but it's there to be used, so a small bit of climbing here should set you on the right course. If you start climbing too much you'll know you'll need to drop down a bit to skirt around it. But a small climb should set you on the right track. Dropping down the river is a big target, and helps the nav for this section all the way to your river crossing at the track junction.

All downhill from here!

Gravale

Navigationally I keep things very simple and use the following procedure from Art's Cross:

Art's Cross to Three Lakes on 224°. From there I ascend very slightly on 194° and then gradually downwards, all on 194°, to a point on the Avonbeg River close to Table Track. This is as direct as it gets and works every time. Only two bearings required.

Git101

donothoponpop wrote: »

At this stage you're going to be fast walking, or jogging at best. The main consideration for this section is getting safely from the forest exit to the table track, without losing time by getting lost. If the ground is frozen, Gravale's route looks promising, and I'd take that. If you were not so sure about your nav capibilities, one might take the Oakwood ridge, and try and find the track from lough Firrab to Conavalla (it's there, but hard to find). But this option adds a fair bit of distance.

I'm far from a nav expert, but I know enough to use each mark on the map for info. So knowing how steep you are climbing (contour lines), or using a track or river to nav along, will get you over. Assuming damp conditions, under mist or cloud, my intention is to exit the forest, cross the river, and ascend the ridge from T026 999 to T033 988. There's not much in the way of track, and nav isn't easy in cloud, but if you're going up, you're going in the right direction. Where it gets flatter towards the top, you have a couple of rivers to stay between.

Then I'll do my best to fight through the peat stacks around three lakes for 1k due SSW (compass in hand). Conavalla isn't much of a target, but it's there to be used, so a small bit of climbing here should set you on the right course. If you start climbing too much you'll know you'll need to drop down a bit to skirt around it. But a small climb should set you on the right track. Dropping down the river is a big target, and helps the nav for this section all the way to your river crossing at the track junction.

All downhill from here!

I'm happy enough with my nav - I hope they're not famous last words :eek: - but because I'm not familiar with the area I'm trying to find the most suitable routes.

The Lough Ferrib route looks to add a good bit of distance alright, I may get a chance to look it over if I can get out for another few recces.

I think Gravale's route looks promising, hopefully I'll get a chance to check out the various options onto Table Track too.

Thanks for all the help.

Quarreller

Hey All,
From reading the last few posts I would like to throw my 2 cents worth in as I do ALOT of hillwalking in that area.
1) There is no point going to Lough Firrib unless you like to do an extra long walk for the sake of doing it.
2) Usually the best route to Art's Cross from the forrest gate where we will come out is as follows:
Option one follow the river up to Art's plaque and climb from there. This has the disadvantage of a steep difficult section up to Art's cross which is not great if yuu are tired
Option two is to cross the river ASAP after coming out of forrest. You then make your way up the ridge on the right hand side of the river which is longer on the up but but easier on the body IMO. You are also on drier ground here which again helps as the other route can be very wet even when its dry!
But again guys as somebody who walks in the area stay away from Oakwood and Lough Firrib as is extra work, distance and pain for the sake of it.
From Art's cross then take a bearing to 3 lakes across the peat hags. It's tough going in the wet but its only about 1100m. From 3 lakes the best route to take is the right hand side of the river through the heather. I would advise staying high and not getting sucked down into the river gully as its a difficult steep walk along the gully. If you stay high with the river in view at all times you will hit table track. Turn left here and you will see the finish and more importantly Glenmalure lodge for a well earned pint.

Gravale

I would certainly agree with Quareller that Oakwood, Lough Firrib and Conavalla are options which I would never consider.

After you pass through the gate out onto the Glenreemore River, I have always walked up to the point where the forest ends. Then, walking alongside the river, you will find a small track which goes all the way up to a point opposite Art's plaque. Very easy going even in January weather. The ascent to Art's Cross is quite short and soon reached, though it may exercise the body more than you want.

Art's Cross to Three Lakes on 224°, then 194° to the river. Climbing quite high on the far river bank, follow the river to a bridge and forest track. Turn right when you reach the bridge and then shortly left down Table Track to Glenmalure.

nerraw1111

Gravale wrote: »

After you pass through the gate out onto the Glenreemore River, I have always walked up to the point where the forest ends. Then, walking alongside the river, you will find a small track which goes all the way up to a point opposite Art's plaque. Very easy going even in January weather. The ascent to Art's Cross is quite short and soon reached, though it may exercise the body more than you want.

Art's Cross to Three Lakes on 224°, then 194° to the river. Climbing quite high on the far river bank, follow the river to a bridge and forest track. Turn right when you reach the bridge and then shortly left down Table Track to Glenmalure.

This is the way my group went last year. The climb up Art's cross isn't that difficult, short hard effort and you're over it.

ezikel

Hi All,

Great to see a healthy discussion going on re the Art route. Just a note: Gravale has been doing this route for years and the man I went to originally when setting up the mass participation challenge. He knows the route like the back of his hand so you won't go wrong with his advice

There will more than likely be a small route change around CP1. This only affects the Ballinabrocky Hill section but I will be sending an email with new grid refs out, putting a post on here and putting it on the website when the change is confirmed

Nerrraw........three (two) lakes were frozen solid last year....and probably looked like the rest of the terrain...you could have walked over them

piglet69

thanks for input folks, will give arts cross to 3/2 lakes a lash and see how goes. Guess I'll be leaving the shiney shoes at home.

P.

mcgratheoin

ezikel wrote: »

There will more than likely be a small route change around CP1. This only affects the Ballinabrocky Hill section but I will be sending an email with new grid refs out, putting a post on here and putting it on the website when the change is confirmed

Any chance of a quick preview of what the change might be? Was going to go recce the Ballinabrocky section but may give it a miss now.
Is it an access issue or has the footbridge been washed away with the floods?