Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

telecaster

So, will ye be giving Limerick a bating Sunday week?

Fireball07

telecaster wrote: »

So, will ye be giving Limerick a bating Sunday week?

Deise Hurler

hardybuck wrote: »

Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.

From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.

I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?

Have little sympathy for Ballyduff. When they were up senior they poached players from neighbouring clubs like Dunhill, Butlerstown and Kill.

mickmcl09

hardybuck wrote: »

I don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.

There's a rule there that most counties adopt where if you don't play for 96 weeks, you don't need a transfer but some counties still look for proof that the player is living/working in the environs of the new club.

Like I said earlier, it would be very difficult to prove a club is poaching players but at the very least, in a round about way, the players are poached by default through the county boards inability to monitor the transfers. Clubs and players know this.

I for one don't agree that Adults should be aloud to play with whoever they like, players may as well start getting paid which opens a right can of worms, that's not to say that won't happen in the future either. The transfer policy in Waterford makes a mockery for what the GAA and it's parochial roots stand for.

And another thing, these incoming lads are what many would call blow-ins, yes, that attitude is still there. You're great if you deliver and they couldn't have you out the gate fast enough if you don't. Most of these guys are too young to realise this and it all ends in tears alot of the time and very often, you may as well be an outcast in your home parish to boot. It creates an awful lot of bad feeling all round.

No winners and nearly everybody loses.

On the subject of divisional teams, what goes on in Kerry is a tradition. I lived there for a number of years. Football is religion in many parts, with as many as 6 clubs in areas no bigger in area than Ballygunner, with tiny populations. Divisional teams are viewed differently down there. Yes it gives good Junior and intermediates a chance to be noticed but that's about all. 2 or 3 extra matches at a different level makes dam all difference to ability or to there championship. They have an excellent league structure with no divisional teams which is where most of their games take place IIRC.

hardybuck

mickmcl09 wrote: »

There's a rule there that most counties adopt where if you don't play for 96 weeks, you don't need a transfer but some counties still look for proof that the player is living/working in the environs of the new club.

Like I said earlier, it would be very difficult to prove a club is poaching players but at the very least, in a round about way, the players are poached by default through the county boards inability to monitor the transfers. Clubs and players know this.

I for one don't agree that Adults should be aloud to play with whoever they like, players may as well start getting paid which opens a right can of worms, that's not to say that won't happen in the future either. The transfer policy in Waterford makes a mockery for what the GAA and it's parochial roots stand for.

And another thing, these incoming lads are what many would call blow-ins, yes, that attitude is still there. You're great if you deliver and they couldn't have you out the gate fast enough if you don't. Most of these guys are too young to realise this and it all ends in tears alot of the time and very often, you may as well be an outcast in your home parish to boot. It creates an awful lot of bad feeling all round.

No winners and nearly everybody loses.

On the subject of divisional teams, what goes on in Kerry is a tradition. I lived there for a number of years. Football is religion in many parts, with as many as 6 clubs in areas no bigger in area than Ballygunner, with tiny populations. Divisional teams are viewed differently down there. Yes it gives good Junior and intermediates a chance to be noticed but that's about all. 2 or 3 extra matches at a different level makes dam all difference to ability or to there championship. They have an excellent league structure with no divisional teams which is where most of their games take place IIRC.

Show me one other sport where you force a lad to play for a particular club for life? People will fall out, people will want to move on. The vast majority of people won't ever want to move, but this is the real world.

If a lad was 28 and had a bad falling out with his club he could be looking at retirement with that policy. If a young player had a falling out, you'd lose him to soccer or rugby and maybe never get him back. Its not practical.

Top drawer

John O leary sold his soul i think, at least jack kennedy joined de la salle who will be favourites to win the championship,, at 32 years of age he joined mt sion for nothing and sold his soul

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Maybe less clubs would be a better way to go about it. Pride should not be a barrier to sense prevailing. Tourin and Cappoquin contested the Western Intermediate Final last year. On their own, either side would be hockeyed in the Senior championship, but I believe that if they joined together they could be competitive and they would grow as a team as both have promising young players. On their own though there is a limit to their ambition. Same with Tallow and Shamrocks I feel.

There are a few other clubs like Modeligo, Colligan, St Marys Touraneena, Ballinameela etc who have group team when they are younger and then split up when they reach adult level. I think these teams should just be joined, as it doesn't benefit them the fact that they may only get 3 or 4 off an u21 team that actually play for their club. Doesn't make sense. I don't care what people say about established parish boundaries, the fact is these areas as a whole are too small to have their own individual teams. Of course, any bitterness between these areas might prevent this from potentially happening, not that I think it will actually happen ever.

my god your spouting a different class of rubbish today Mountainlad!! :eek:

You say 'pride is a barrier to progress? The reason these clubs will never emalgamate is due to bitterness between clubs?

The areas you say are 'too small to have their own clubs' seem to be doing Just fine, some are decent intermediate grade teams and some of them even field second teams. Some of them have won county titles in the last few years. Its not about bitterness between clubs like you see in soccer that drives the GAA on. Its about the community your from and representing that. And respecting your neighbours aswell which the vast majority of GAA members do.

So get rid of the small rural clubs to improve the standard of our county teams? to make sure only the really talented players are left playing the game? Your contradicting what you go on to say in your last paragraph. People are too caught up in wanting to see the county teams being successful they lose sight of what the GAA is really about.

deisebhoy17

Top drawer wrote: »

John O leary sold his soul i think, at least jack kennedy joined de la salle who will be favourites to win the championship,, at 32 years of age he joined mt sion for nothing and sold his soul

ah lads give him a break. He owes that club nothing hes carried them for years.

Id be more cheesed off about young players who have come through the underage system at a club and after all the hard work done in nurturing them they move off to a bigger club who get to reap the benefits of the hard work done by another club

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

my god your spouting a different class of rubbish today Mountainlad!! :eek:

You say 'pride is a barrier to progress? The reason these clubs will never emalgamate is due to bitterness between clubs?

The areas you say are 'too small to have their own clubs' seem to be doing Just fine, some are decent intermediate grade teams and some of them even field second teams. Some of them have won county titles in the last few years. Its not about bitterness between clubs like you see in soccer that drives the GAA on. Its about the community your from and representing that. And respecting your neighbours aswell which the vast majority of GAA members do.

So get rid of the small rural clubs to improve the standard of our county teams? to make sure only the really talented players are left playing the game? Your contradicting what you go on to say in your last paragraph. People are too caught up in wanting to see the county teams being successful they lose sight of what the GAA is really about.

Well Deisebhoy, how are you? Any news?

The clubs aren't big enough to justify their existence. Ok, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned all those that I did, I know Ballinameela are a decent sized club but Colligan are one team that I remember pulling out either last year or the year before because they couldn't field a team. In the Intermediate football championship. Hard to take the competition seriously when some teams can hardly field a team.

It's a matter of being a viable club. From a financial point of view too.

I would say pride in having their own team is probably more why they won't join, but there is definitely bitterness in certain areas, be under no illusions of that. I know of one young lad who was a very talented hurler, but wasn't let play for the club that represented his local area because they represented a neighbouring village and bore their name (his father didn't like the other crowd). That situation would arise again if some of them joined together.

When St Olivers players, for example, play together until they are 21, why are they then separated into different adult clubs? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm not 100% sure on what teams are combined to form Olivers but I know Ballinameela is one and from what I've seen they seem to get the best of the players. There is only a limited number other clubs will get from one of the St Olivers underage teams, so say they get as much as 5, what happens if only 1 of them stays playing? (which, considering the current economic climate, is becoming more and more likely)

I'm more interested in having credible Adult competitions, and having read what I said that's fairly clear, I don't really see the contradiction.

mickmcl09

hardybuck wrote: »

Show me one other sport where you force a lad to play for a particular club for life? People will fall out, people will want to move on. The vast majority of people won't ever want to move, but this is the real world.

If a lad was 28 and had a bad falling out with his club he could be looking at retirement with that policy. If a young player had a falling out, you'd lose him to soccer or rugby and maybe never get him back. Its not practical.

Ah come on now, it's not like the GAA have moved the goalposts regarding transfer rules. Waterfords policy is lax to put it mildly. Even Dublin can keep a lid on transfers, as do most counties.

As for fallings out, sure you'd never have a club if fellas threw the bottle out of the pram and moved on, every time someone put their nose out of joint. I played with St Joseph's up in Clare in the 90's and the amount of rows between players out of sheer passion, you just couldn't count them, but there was a collective passion to win. Ask any top player in the country, and they'll all tell you that there's nothing like winning with your club.

As for fellas careers being over at 28, in fairness, I'd say far and few between. Any committed club hurler who looks after himself can hurl well into his thirties and if moving means that much, he'll keep himself in good nick. At the end of the day there's nothing stopping a player from moving house / job, then he has genuine cause for a transfer irrespective of his relationship with his home club.

As for losing a 28 yr old to rugby or soccer, like, come on, if being tied for 96 weeks was going to be the end of his career, he's not exactly going to light the rugby or soccer world on fire either. You can't have it both ways.

Top drawer

i have nothing personal with john o leary but i think he has hurled with the club all his life while they had good times, when the club needed someone like him to help them through the tough times he upped and left at the age of 32, he has played senior hurling for club and county, what more does he want to achieve by going to mount sion? because they wont win anything in my eyes. when he looks back at career in latter years i think he will regret it

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Well Deisebhoy, how are you? Any news?

The clubs aren't big enough to justify their existence. Ok, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned all those that I did, I know Ballinameela are a decent sized club but Colligan are one team that I remember pulling out either last year or the year before because they couldn't field a team. In the Intermediate football championship. Hard to take the competition seriously when some teams can hardly field a team.

It's a matter of being a viable club. From a financial point of view too.

I would say pride in having their own team is probably more why they won't join, but there is definitely bitterness in certain areas, be under no illusions of that. I know of one young lad who was a very talented hurler, but wasn't let play for the club that represented his local area because they represented a neighbouring village and bore their name (his father didn't like the other crowd). That situation would arise again if some of them joined together.

When St Olivers players, for example, play together until they are 21, why are they then separated into different adult clubs? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm not 100% sure on what teams are combined to form Olivers but I know Ballinameela is one and from what I've seen they seem to get the best of the players. There is only a limited number other clubs will get from one of the St Olivers underage teams, so say they get as much as 5, what happens if only 1 of them stays playing? (which, considering the current economic climate, is becoming more and more likely)

I'm more interested in having credible Adult competitions, and having read what I said that's fairly clear, I don't really see the contradiction.

The contradiction is where youve said: 'A lot of people seem to think that the Club Championship is the Inter-County teams b*tch and that it should be setup to accomodate the Senior team in what ever way possible, and nobody cares too much as long as the County team is successful. Very inconsiderate of your ordinary club player.' As you were calling for smaller clubs to be scrapped to improve the standard of the upper scale of our games I thought it was a bit hypocritical.
Anyway Ive said my piece youve said yours lets not get into a tit for tat argument. Youve taken strong exception to some of my opinions in the past so I couldnt let this one go when I saw it

deisebhoy17

mickmcl09 wrote: »

Even Dublin can keep a lid on transfers, as do most counties.

Great point. Remember the whole Eamonn Fennell affair? He wanted to leave O'Tooles a traditional hurling club with only a junior football team to join neighbouring St. Vincents, a traditional football powerhouse. O'Tooles wouldnt sign the page to let him go and he then refused to play, basically he was left without club football for the guts of 2 years, despite being a Dublin senior footballer. Transfers were virtually unheard of apart from country players joining clubs

The county board refused to get involved when they could have brokered a deal quite easy. It was making a strong statement that you wont hop around from club to club as easy as that. Im not saying it wasnt a ludicrous situation and it was a shabby way to treat the lad, not to mention it looking poorly on O'Tooles. But no doubt lads will think twice about jumping ship in future. O'Tooles eventually agreed to let him off as far as I know

Cake Man

HillFarmer wrote: »

Waterford play Dublin in a challenge on Monday evening.

Anyone know where and what time its on.?

Buffers Alley in Wexford at 7.15 on Tuesday.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Great point. Remember the whole Eamonn Fennell affair? He wanted to leave O'Tooles a traditional hurling club with only a junior football team to join neighbouring St. Vincents, a traditional football powerhouse. O'Tooles wouldnt sign the page to let him go and he then refused to play, basically he was left without club football for the guts of 2 years, despite being a Dublin senior footballer. Transfers were virtually unheard of apart from country players joining clubs

The county board refused to get involved when they could have brokered a deal quite easy. It was making a strong statement that you wont hop around from club to club as easy as that. Im not saying it wasnt a ludicrous situation and it was a shabby way to treat the lad, not to mention it looking poorly on O'Tooles. But no doubt lads will think twice about jumping ship in future. O'Tooles eventually agreed to let him off as far as I know

I'd be inclined to think Fennell was hard done by. So was it really the right thing for them to do, to be so vigilant about this even though it was at the expense of one of their members? On a side note, great credit to him for surviving that, and he's still on the Dublin panel.

Also, one final thing, I didn't mean merging clubs together to help the Waterford Senior team, I mean strengthening the Senior/Intermediate/Junior championships without devaluing them by creating group teams (and before anything is said, combining two neighboring clubs would not be the same thing). It would in turn lead to a better Waterford team I'd imagine, bu the priority is to improve these competitions which makes it better for spectators, and players.

abbeysideFB4L

scores in tonights matches?

suitcasepink

abbeysideFB4L wrote: »

scores in tonights matches?

Abbeyside 2-17 passage 2-13
Tallow 1-13 Roanmore 0-16
Fourmilewater 0-18 De La Salle 1-10

Strange evening..


Scores courtesy of Waterford Gaa twitter https://twitter.com/#!/WaterfordGAA who must have heard my whinging and gave score updates :')

deisebhoy17

deise_girl wrote: »

Abbeyside 2-17 passage 2-13
Tallow 1-13 Roanmore 0-16
Fourmilewater 0-18 De La Salle 1-10

Strange evening..


Scores courtesy of Waterford Gaa twitter https://twitter.com/#!/WaterfordGAA who must have heard my whinging and gave score updates :')

Big surprises allround! Fair play to Roanmore reading the comments here during the week they shouldnt even bother togging out

Top drawer

Alot of talk on this and on the paper about roanmore during week, talking about cutting them out of the championship! They just drew with the county finalists, and shud of won the game in my eyes

tus.maith

2 good games in Fraher Field.

Worrying, however, that Mullane looked so quiet, failed to score.

Foumilewater were impressive victors in the opening game with 5 points to spare over De la Salle, 0-18 to 1-10. There was little to choose between the teams in the opening 30 mins, but a great save by FMW goalkeeper denied Stephen Daniels a goal from the penalty spot just before the break. Craig Guiry, Diarmuid Wall and JAmie Barron had fine scores in the second half for FMW but while Jack Kennedy had a late goal for DLS, FMW finished stronger with good points from Shane Walsh to hold on for victory.


The second game provided some good hurling and lots of drama, before it eventually finished all square, Tallow1-13, Roanmore 0-16. Roanmore began brightly and Gavin O Brien had them 4 points to no score ahead early on. A Thomas Ryan goal brought Tallow back into the game bur Roanmore led at the break by 2 points, 11 to 1-6. The sides traded scores throughout the second half with Gavin O Brien contributing 12 points of the Roanmore total, 9 from frees. The teams were level on 60 mins and a Thomas Ryan point looked to have won the game for Tallow before Tommy Aldrige got a later and deserved equaliser for Roanmore.


In Walsh Park, it finished Abbeyside 2-17, Passage 2-13 in Walsh Park.

abbeysideFB4L

any report on the abbeyside v passage game? couldnt make it myself

deisebhoy17

Top drawer wrote: »

Alot of talk on this and on the paper about roanmore during week, talking about cutting them out of the championship! They just drew with the county finalists, and shud of won the game in my eyes

Yea and how the championship is gone farsically boring because the games are so one-sided for Dls and Ballygunner! Looks like it was one-sided for FMW last night!!!! After one weekend of championship people had waterford hurling doomed to the doldrums...

Just shows the level of ranting raving that goes on here sometimes

watermark

anybody goin up to walsh park? updates would be seriously appreciated!

zol 2

Good win for Abbeyside last night when you think they were missing their starting full forward line.Amazing results yesterday when you think that Roanmore were written off and DLS were unbeatable apparently! Good for the championship as it makes the group stages a bit more interesting-at least for the time being!

Looking forward to the local derby tonight between Ballyduff Upper and Lismore it has the makings of a cracker. No love lost between these clubs and add to the equation the fact that if Ballyduff lose they face an uphill battle to qualify as they have Ballygunner up next,it could maybe swing the balance in their favour.

I heard things haven't been going smoothly in the Lismore camp over the goal keeper situation aswell as other players not been happy about not seeing action last week so if the result goes against them tonight expect even more fireworks!
My sources up there told me that Seanie Barry was told to keep the head down this week and train with the club to win his place back in goal,so having been given permission by the Waterford minor manager to do so and not to train with the county,he arrives on tues night and was told to train with the juniors!! There has been no communication at all between player and management since,and now the player has picked up an injury on fri night which needed physio and still no communication from the management to the player,even to ask how the injury was. If this is the way that young players are going to be treated by their club then we won't have them for too long. He deserves better and when you hear that he left the field after training in floods of tears it beggars belief how far they're going to push this player before he walks. Id say he'd have no problem finding another club and i know my own club would take him in an instance.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Yea and how the championship is gone farsically boring because the games are so one-sided for Dls and Ballygunner! Looks like it was one-sided for FMW last night!!!! After one weekend of championship people had waterford hurling doomed to the doldrums...

Just shows the level of ranting raving that goes on here sometimes

To be fair if you'd seen Roanmore last week you'd probably have been saying the same thing, and in all honesty it's probably more of a reflection on Tallow than anything. That said, credit to Roanmore can't have been easy coming back like that after last weekend.

Also, if you'd seen FMW at all last year you'd know that yesterday wasn't a massive upset.

And the fact of the matter remains there are still a few clubs in the Senior Championship that wouldn't even be strong intermediate clubs in Kilkenny or Cork, and don't get me started on the Intermediate or Junior championships.

And who said it was doomed to the doldrums? People were expressing genuine concerns about the state of the championships, something that was highlighted last Winter by the abysmal performances of the Junior and Intermediate Champions in Munster (as usual). The Senior County champions generally do well to be fair to them, but there is definetly a big gap between say the top 3 or 4 and the rest of the championship, though it's pretty competitive after that. It being competitive does not guarantee quality however. Laois and Antrim might be a competitive game, but that doesn't mean it's good.

Some people jumped the gun writing off the championship as a foregone conclusion last weekend, but there were valid points made as well. Take Tallow last year, they got to the final. Some people say great we've an underdog and we don't have to see Ballygunner V DLS again. But is it really great when the County Final is as one sided as it was?

HelloYoungBoy

What fools were saying this championship is predictable again....

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

To be fair if you'd seen Roanmore last week you'd probably have been saying the same thing, and in all honesty it's probably more of a reflection on Tallow than anything. That said, credit to Roanmore can't have been easy coming back like that after last weekend.

Also, if you'd seen FMW at all last year you'd know that yesterday wasn't a massive upset.

And the fact of the matter remains there are still a few clubs in the Senior Championship that wouldn't even be strong intermediate clubs in Kilkenny or Cork, and don't get me started on the Intermediate or Junior championships.

And who said it was doomed to the doldrums? People were expressing genuine concerns about the state of the championships, something that was highlighted last Winter by the abysmal performances of the Junior and Intermediate Champions in Munster (as usual). The Senior County champions generally do well to be fair to them, but there is definetly a big gap between say the top 3 or 4 and the rest of the championship, though it's pretty competitive after that. It being competitive does not guarantee quality however. Laois and Antrim might be a competitive game, but that doesn't mean it's good.

Some people jumped the gun writing off the championship as a foregone conclusion last weekend, but there were valid points made as well. Take Tallow last year, they got to the final. Some people say great we've an underdog and we don't have to see Ballygunner V DLS again. But is it really great when the County Final is as one sided as it was?

:eek:Wrong side of the bed? Or are you just trying to knit-pick because I disagreed with your opinion to scrap half the junior clubs in west waterford.... Either way like a lot of comments here, mine was meant as banter. No need to dig too deep into it. Lighten up;)

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

:eek:Wrong side of the bed? Or are you just trying to knit-pick because I disagreed with your opinion to scrap half the junior clubs in west waterford.... Either way like a lot of comments here, mine was meant as banter. No need to dig too deep into it. Lighten up;)

Haha I'm actually in a fairly pleasant mood as usual sir! Just saying that while some people I would also disagree with, there was plenty of validity in comments over the week about Roanmore.

I don't see where I'm being pedantic either.

Mount Sion losing to Dunhill today (which I am shocked about) only serves to suggest how far the second tier of teams are behind the top 3 or 4. Does make Group 2 more exciting than I thought it would be though I have to say.

hardybuck

HelloYoungBoy wrote: »

What fools were saying this championship is predictable again....

I am. This weekend's results won't have much impact on the championship. Only two teams have a hope of winning - DLS or Ballygunner.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

I am. This weekend's results won't have much impact on the championship. Only two teams have a hope of winning - DLS or Ballygunner.

Well Ballygunner won't win it by losing to Dungarvan!

Dungarvan 2-10 Ballygunner 0-09

I have no doubt BG and DLS will be there at the end, but your way off the mark if you think they're the only two who can win it.

Ballygunner have kind of made me look like a bit of a fool though

5 games, 5 underdog victories, somebody could have made a killing at the bookies!

Crazy weekend.