Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Mountainlad

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/deise-blow-as-mahony-ruled-out-for-season-193029.html

Johnny Murphy's take on all the weekend's action.

zol 2

I was at the Lismore/Dungarvan game and Seanie Barry was dropped! Brendan Landers was back in goal for Lismore. I asked some people in the stand about it and i was told it was because he didn't play in a challenge game against Erins Own from Cork on the friday before the minor game against Clare. Apparently it was left to himself to make the decision as no agreement could be reached between both mangers of the county and club team which i find unbelieveable.
So by making the decision not to play the challenge game he was punished by his club even though he was representing the club as captain on the county team! Even the people i spoke to from Lismore couldn't believe it either as they said it never happened before when the likes of Dan Shanahan and Dave Bennett were playing inter county,it was just accepted that they wouldn't be available for the likes of these challenge games so close to championship.
For the record Lismore nev er really looked in danger of losing bar a few shaky moments at the end. Apparently Dungarvan were backed from 7/2 into 2/1,a lot of it by the players themselves a Dungarvan man informed me afterwards.

Black Suir

Mountainlad wrote: »

To be fair to the lad full forward, he got on a decent bit of ball. Saw him play before, he has a great shot and he's not as immobile as you'd think he'd be.

Barron finished with 1-2 from play I think.

Roanmore's best player were Eoin Madigan and I suppose Gavin O'Brien though I think he was well contained generally.

Fourmilewater played quite well first half, they declined a lot second half but I suppose that's natural. Not great preparation for them for next week against De La Salle though.

As for Roanmore, well they'll probably avoid relegation on account of Dunhill being a poor outfit too, though the scoring potential of Eamon Murphy and Shane Casey could cause trouble. I think one of those two will go down.

For anybody that's wondering the scores from yesterday in Fraher Field were:

Fourmilewater 3-12 Roanmore 0-7

Ballygunner 0-17 Abbeyside 0-12

I saw the two of them play over the weekend and would say of the two, Dunhill will finish above Roanmore in the table (the two of them are in the one group). I can see Roanmore playing a relegation play off with Ballyduff Upper unless they improve and if this was to happen Roanmore could find themselves relegated at the end of the year. I saw them win the county final two years ago, I saw them once or twice last year, and again on Saturday night and am afraid to say, they are a very poor side. Unless they improve and i cant see it happening I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.

Mountainlad

Black Suir wrote: »

I saw the two of them play over the weekend and would say of the two, Dunhill will finish above Roanmore in the table (the two of them are in the one group). I can see Roanmore playing a relegation play off with Ballyduff Upper unless they improve and if this was to happen Roanmore could find themselves relegated at the end of the year. I saw them win the county final two years ago, I saw them once or twice last year, and again on Saturday night and am afraid to say, they are a very poor side. Unless they improve and i cant see it happening I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.

Yeah well the one that finishes bottom of the group will get relegated, of that I'm sure. I wouldn't be too sure bout Dunhill though, I don't think Tallow are as good as they're perfromance in the championship would suggest from last year, and I've also been told Dunhill are gonna lose a few players over the summer.

Big statement to make about O'Brien unless you know something I don't.

zol 2

Ya big statement about Gavin O Brien? I couldn't imagine him leaving Roanmore even if they are relegated. He would be some addition to any senior team but i'd say there would be murder if,lets say,he went to Mt Sion or De La Salle!

Top drawer

I dont think gavin o brien would leave roanmore, he has gotton onto county team playing for them and alot of county players are playing or have played intermediate the last few years, thats shud they go down, which i dont think they will, dunhill to be beaten in every game is my prediction for the year

deisedude

Deise Abu 2012 wrote: »

http://deiseabu.blogspot.com/

Is that you Deise Tom?

Always good to have a few GAA blogs to read, a few of the posters on this forum the past few years have had some terrific Waterford GAA blogs

deisebhoy17

Black Suir wrote: »

I can see Gavin O'Brien leaving them next year so that he can continue to play Senior Hurling.

Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at

KevIRL

deisedude wrote: »

Is that you Deise Tom?

Always good to have a few GAA blogs to read, a few of the posters on this forum the past few years have had some terrific Waterford GAA blogs

Nice detective work deisedue, I reckon it is DeiseTom himself. Agree with you that no matter who it is its great to have more blogs to read, good work Tom.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at

Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?

Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?

Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.

Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much

djfern84

Mountainlad wrote: »

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Big problem in this county. Dont beleive it goes on anywhere else. As soon as a talented young player comes through from a so-called lesser club' it becomes a question of which of the bigger clubs will snap him up. I dont like this trend its been going on for quite some time and really kicked off when Mount sion poached haulie white and Anthony Kirwan in the late 90s. I know the players are perfectly entitled to do what the system allows them to do but the more that are doing it the more that will follow suit.
I dont know anything about Gavin O'Briens allegiences to his club I cant say Id be surprised if I heard he was looking for a transfer given the trend in this county. The parish rule really needs to be looked at

Does it go on anywhere outside of the City?

Don't really have any experience of it happening myself.

Ah ya happens in Stradbally as well they seem to pick who they Want for the football ..

deisedude

For anybody who missed it the highlights of the Waterford Clare minor game last week can be found on the TG4 player

HillFarmer

Waterford play Dublin in a challenge on Monday evening.

Anyone know where and what time its on.?

needcar1

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much

The only sollution to this problem would be to do what every other successful county does and introduce divisional sides into the senior hurling championship that allows players from smaller intermediate and junior clubs to join together to allow the better players in these clubs to experience senior hurling against the best clubs in the county. This then would allow players to remain with the home club and play senior hurling.

newyork4sam

The league format of the championship has become very uncompetitive. DLS and Ballygunner in particular are rarely tested in the league format, heavy defeats of roanmore and dunhill are of no benefit to eitheir teams, I'd propose a reduced championship of 10 teams I would than have a premier intermediate championship consisting of possibly 10 teams cause i believe there is that amount of teams closely matched eg. stradbally, clonea, dunhill, roanmore, ardmore, cappoquin, tourin, rinn

hardybuck

newyork4sam wrote: »

The league format of the championship has become very uncompetitive. DLS and Ballygunner in particular are rarely tested in the league format, heavy defeats of roanmore and dunhill are of no benefit to eitheir teams, I'd propose a reduced championship of 10 teams I would than have a premier intermediate championship consisting of possibly 10 teams cause i believe there is that amount of teams closely matched eg. stradbally, clonea, dunhill, roanmore, ardmore, cappoquin, tourin, rinn

Even with a ten team championship, DLS and Ballygunner are still far too good for most of the other teams.

A premier intermediate, in both hurling and football, would still make sense though as we have a very poor intermediate championship at present.

I've long supported a move towards divisional group sides like the poster above has mentioned. You are killing two birds with one stone here. Not only are you keeping good lads at smaller clubs, you are offering more players an opportunity to play senior hurling or football.

I'd put in teams from east, west and middle county and take three weaker senior clubs back down to a premier intermediate - which would be all county rather than the current east/west format.

newyork4sam

It would be very diffuclt to come up with suitable group teams as the county is not big enough, would you allow a team in intermediate premier form a group team with another team?

hardybuck

newyork4sam wrote: »

It would be very diffuclt to come up with suitable group teams as the county is not big enough, would you allow a team in intermediate premier form a group team with another team?

Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.

I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.

zol 2

I'd agree fully that something has to be done with the intermediate as it is very poor standard wise. As for the group teams this was tried before and didn't work.There are a number of issues that hinder these teams:
Selectors-who and what people decide on their selection?
Times allocated for training?Where would the training schedule fit in with their own club training and if some of these players are on county teams would it not just put more pressure on them?
Realistically the same commitment wouldn't be there from players as would be with their own clubs.
Several of these group teams that take part in the Cork championship are really only fulfilling fixtures and having spoken to some of these group players they find it a burden more so than anything else.

As for the transfer discussion- what is the answer to a player who has fallen out with his given club for,lets say,personal reasons,should he be punished by not being allowed to transfer to a different club or should he be left walk away from the GAA altogether? They have a 96 week ruling in Cork in that if you are determined to leave your own club you are not allowed play with any other club for that period of time,that way they reckon it put players of transferring unless they are totally set on doing so.
Maybe this might be a solution to the problem???

deisebhoy17

hardybuck wrote: »

Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.

I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.

This debate about the group teams again. Does no one remember the group teams of the late 90s? There were 4 ,Gleann na Bride and Gleann na Deise in the west, Faughs in the east and Meaghars covering the city. It was a complete disaster. Many teams couldnt even field or were totally hammered by cricket scores. It didnt work then or wont work now.

It works in Cork and Kerry because the tradition has always been there. Its a big thing to represent your division. we dont just dont have it here

hardybuck

zol 2 wrote: »

I'd agree fully that something has to be done with the intermediate as it is very poor standard wise. As for the group teams this was tried before and didn't work.There are a number of issues that hinder these teams:
Selectors-who and what people decide on their selection?
Times allocated for training?Where would the training schedule fit in with their own club training and if some of these players are on county teams would it not just put more pressure on them?
Realistically the same commitment wouldn't be there from players as would be with their own clubs.
Several of these group teams that take part in the Cork championship are really only fulfilling fixtures and having spoken to some of these group players they find it a burden more so than anything else.

As for the transfer discussion- what is the answer to a player who has fallen out with his given club for,lets say,personal reasons,should he be punished by not being allowed to transfer to a different club or should he be left walk away from the GAA altogether? They have a 96 week ruling in Cork in that if you are determined to leave your own club you are not allowed play with any other club for that period of time,that way they reckon it put players of transferring unless they are totally set on doing so.
Maybe this might be a solution to the problem???

When was the group effort properly tried before? Don't mention St.Brendans as I'm proposing something on a far grander scale.

A 96 week ban is an absolute disgrace. We don't have a big enough problem to warrant banning players for two years. The GAA is struggling to compete with others sports at the moment as it is.

hardybuck

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

This debate about the group teams again. Does no one remember the group teams of the late 90s? There were 4 ,Gleann na Bride and Gleann na Deise in the west, Faughs in the east and Meaghars covering the city. It was a complete disaster. Many teams couldnt even field or were totally hammered by cricket scores. It didnt work then or wont work now.

It works in Cork and Kerry because the tradition has always been there. Its a big thing to represent your division. we dont just dont have it here

Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.

We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.

deisebhoy17

hardybuck wrote: »

Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.

We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.

It was going on from about 97 to maybe 01. Another big reason was that there was absolutely no one attending these games. I mean like a man and his dog!
I can see how the suggestion keep coming up but I think the main issues that need to be tackled first are
1. Making an allcounty intermediate A Grade. This in time will improve the standard of teams going up senior. and
2. Bring in some sort of Parish rule to stop the gap widening between the bigger and smaller clubs. If a player wants to move that should be dealt with on a case by case basis but players are jumping from club to club too freely at the moment its not right. Its especially not fair on the club which has put all the work into nurturing a player up through underage and then at the click of a finger the bigger club reaps the benefits.
You cant stop a player that wants to move but you can do is help change to common mindset

noiniho

hardybuck wrote: »

Unaware of this experiment. The way I'd approach it is to look for the issues, try and improve upon them and try again.

We have a situation now where senior clubs are being battered off the field in county quarter and semi finals. Lets not rule out potential options due to pure negativity.

It was tried before and was disaster, I know a group of cappoquin, clashmore, rinn and a few more played Mt Sion inaround 98-99? that was the year that divisional teams were tried county wide, the players meet in the dressing room beforehand, went out and got hammered and that was it. maybe it might work well in places were established divisional teams have a tradition like cork (and i dont think it is wotking there that well anymore to be honest).
Lets face it, to anyone that is playing club hurling in Waterford over the last 15 years, it is hard enough to know when you are going to be playing with your club, nevermind having another team to accomidate in all that, it would be a total mess, the only way it would work is if the best players from junior/intermediate teams would have to play championship with their own club team, and then on the same weekend play for the divisional team as well. if a divisional team progressed to the later stages of the senior championship then it would hold up the lesser junior and intermediate grades.
it would be messy, it was tried before and didnt work, the weekends arent there for it and we have a hard enough time fitting in championship games in the present format

noiniho

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Not as much but it has started to. It started with the big city clubs poaching from smaller clubs but clubs from the west have started following suit now aswell. Examples like Paul Murray Tourin to Cappoquin a couple years back (when Tourin were still junior and Cappoquin were trying to win the intermediate) and a young Kearney lad from the Brickeys who was very highly rated transferred into Dungarvan who were winning all around them at the time.There are numerous other examples and these players are totally within their rights to do what they did, basically because there is no parish rule in this county. You basically have the freedom to play for whoever you like while other counties certain criteria has to be met and the smaller clubs arent getting screwed over as much

I dont think that Paul Murray moving from Tourin to Cappoquin was a case of poaching to be honest, for one unlike many of the other transfers (like the last four portlaw hurlers to win a munster minor hurling medals playing senior with mt sion, Harris, Kirwan, OShea and Dee). For one Paul Murray would have played all his underage hurling with Cappoquin underage, he moved at a time when Cappoquin were terrible and tourin were on the up with some good young players. Tourin are now on recent results a better side then Cappoquin.

I must stress I dont know him or his reasons, but the move from Tourin to Cappoquin doesnt makes sense as a case of someone trying to raise there profile, and Cappoquin were going so bad back then that i doubt they were in a position to poach anyone. maybe if he joined Lismore it would have been a bit different

I think it was probably more to do with wanting to play on the same team as friends growing up.

Interestingly you mention parish rule, if parish rule came in Cappoquin and tourin would have to play together as it is the one parish.

hardybuck

Parish Rule cannot work in Waterford because it cannot work in the city. Not only are the players living all over town, but some of the clubs have even moved sticks to other parts of the city.

Yes the group teams may have been a disaster, but we still haven't been given a reason why. They were obviously approached in a very unprofessional manner. Probably not enough clubs were involved either, not enough critical mass.

If you look at the city and it's environs just as an example, there are eight junior and intermediate hurling clubs, and another two in the form of Dunhill and Roanmore if you're looking at a premier intermediate. Personally I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to get 20+ guys from 10 clubs who would be interested in playing senior hurling or football.

Regarding lads having games clashing - we're hardly snowed under with games in Waterford. Players here play about a quarter of the games players in other counties get, particularly if you're unfortunate to be playing junior or intermediate. I don't think I'm exaggerating that you could be looking at 3-5 games per year!

If you look at Cork and Kerry, yes they are bigger counties, but therefore they should also have far bigger issues regarding fixture congestion - but they get on with it. If you look at both counties recent All Ireland winning teams, both had several of their top players, who are also some of the top players in the country, coming from junior clubs.

noiniho

hardybuck wrote: »

Parish Rule cannot work in Waterford because it cannot work in the city. Not only are the players living all over town, but some of the clubs have even moved sticks to other parts of the city.

Yes the group teams may have been a disaster, but we still haven't been given a reason why. They were obviously approached in a very unprofessional manner. Probably not enough clubs were involved either, not enough critical mass.

If you look at the city and it's environs just as an example, there are eight junior and intermediate hurling clubs, and another two in the form of Dunhill and Roanmore if you're looking at a premier intermediate. Personally I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't be able to get 20+ guys from 10 clubs who would be interested in playing senior hurling or football.

Regarding lads having games clashing - we're hardly snowed under with games in Waterford. Players here play about a quarter of the games players in other counties get, particularly if you're unfortunate to be playing junior or intermediate. I don't think I'm exaggerating that you could be looking at 3-5 games per year!

If you look at Cork and Kerry, yes they are bigger counties, but therefore they should also have far bigger issues regarding fixture congestion - but they get on with it. If you look at both counties recent All Ireland winning teams, both had several of their top players, who are also some of the top players in the country, coming from junior clubs.

Here are the reasons i think that the group teams didnt work previously. (well one of the group teams that i saw up close and personal)

- There wasnt enough time available, with commitments to their own clubs, no time was there for training etc.
- in these circumstances it was a shambles, the players had no chance playing at a higher grade, who wants to play in those circumstances?
- There is not enough weekends to introduce these new teams, take a look at the club situation in waterford for the last 15 years, it totally plays second fiddle to the county team, Clubs can go 7-8 weeks without a match, 2 matches over four months, the summer gone... it has improved in recent years but for a group team to work then it stalls the intermediate and junior games further, which in turn makes these clubs suffer

Local_Chap

needcar1 wrote: »

The only sollution to this problem would be to do what every other successful county does and introduce divisional sides into the senior hurling championship that allows players from smaller intermediate and junior clubs to join together to allow the better players in these clubs to experience senior hurling against the best clubs in the county. This then would allow players to remain with the home club and play senior hurling.

Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly

premierstone

Local_Chap wrote: »

Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly

Nor do Tipp or Galway, so you have Galway who are the most successfull county in club championships and the top two intercounty teams that dont use that system.