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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012
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Local_Chap wrote: »Kilkenny don't do this and they aren't doing too badly
Divisional sides might work in the bigger counties, Waterford is too small, As you say, and it is stating the bleeding obvious, we should look to Kilkeeny for the template.
Which in fairness i think we have, or at least we are moving in the right direction.
Its all about getting young lads as much quality coaching as possible from the age of five from their clubs, coupled with and complimented by a strong primary school teams / competitions and then obviously secondary school teams coaching.
then have as many countywide competitions underage to keep lads hurling for as much of the year as possible and getting exposed to players from all over the county of a similiar standard.
in fairness this is being done at the moment and that good work needs to continue.
Instead of introducing new teams (that no-one cares about) into the equation, I think what needs to be focused on are the clubs that are already there, then try and train up as many underage coaches as possible from each club to what are considered to be best practice techniques for training kids these days.
the standard of underage hurling in Waterford has increased no end since the '90's, back then you would train and play challenges for a few weeks, play championship, if you got knocked out that was your hurling over for the year. the teams that reached the knock out stages progressed. year on year the gap would widen.
Now lads are playing all year round in different competitions, and the benefits are obvious from out underage teams.
Mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si0 -
Divisional sides might work in the bigger counties, Waterford is too small, As you say, and it is stating the bleeding obvious, we should look to Kilkeeny for the template.
Which in fairness i think we have, or at least we are moving in the right direction.
Its all about getting young lads as much quality coaching as possible from the age of five from their clubs, coupled with and complimented by a strong primary school teams / competitions and then obviously secondary school teams coaching.
then have as many countywide competitions underage to keep lads hurling for as much of the year as possible and getting exposed to players from all over the county of a similiar standard.
in fairness this is being done at the moment and that good work needs to continue.
Instead of introducing new teams (that no-one cares about) into the equation, I think what needs to be focused on are the clubs that are already there, then try and train up as many underage coaches as possible from each club to what are considered to be best practice techniques for training kids these days.
the standard of underage hurling in Waterford has increased no end since the '90's, back then you would train and play challenges for a few weeks, play championship, if you got knocked out that was your hurling over for the year. the teams that reached the knock out stages progressed. year on year the gap would widen.
Now lads are playing all year round in different competitions, and the benefits are obvious from out underage teams.
Mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si
Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.0 -
alllcounty wrote: »Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.
I agree all levels of hurling should be county wide in waterford in my opinion. intermediate should definitely be county wide, some of the results seen last weekened in the west, in all honesty some of those teams are better off junior, as it stands the Western/Eastern champions will play about 2-3 decent teams each (the rest of the games are pretty much cake walks) before meeting in a county final. if it was an all county championship, they would have to play twice that, as well as the two best teams from the county would play in the county final whether they both be from the East or both from the West or whatever, instead of this East - West buffering zone.
Every championship should be set up so that the most likely outcome is that the two best teams play in the final, the East west divide doesnt gaurantee this no matter what grade it is employed0 -
Some great points being made but the major stumbling block to an all county junior and intermediate championship is getting rid of the western and eastern boards and until that's done the championships i feel will stay the same. Too many cosy"jobs for the boys!"for this to happen anytime soon!!0
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Yes to an all county intermediate, but no to an all county junior. Perhaps for the junior proper, but the junior attached teams have enough trouble getting lads to tog out without having the potential to be travelling large distances for games.
You actually have a situation now where the likes of DLS and Ballygunner's second sides are among the better intermediate sides also, which doesn't help either.0 -
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Some great points being made but the major stumbling block to an all county junior and intermediate championship is getting rid of the western and eastern boards and until that's done the championships i feel will stay the same. Too many cosy"jobs for the boys!"for this to happen anytime soon!!
Ya I was going to mention that in my last post as well. that is certainly how it seems looking in, but in saying that I have never even been to a board meeting, so I am not really in a position to criticise them
In saying that I am not sure what role each divisional baord carry out seperate from each other that one entity couldnt just do.0 -
Amalgamations are not the way to go. Although, in my experience they don't hold up fixtures because players will prioritise their own club first, the clubs / players literally play 'lip service' to the amalgamation ie it's a pain in the at$€, but they turn up and with a 'sure who cares if we get beaten' attitude.
1. Tighten up the transfer policy, I've seen nothing like it in Galway, Clare, Tipp, Limerick or Kilkenny, like what goes on in Waterford particularly with particular city teams cherry picking. Gaa is a parochial game. This loose transfer policy has to be effecting some teams very badly and morale in some clubs must be very low. I don't like to see it myself.
2. Fixture congestion is a problem in many counties but in Waterford, which not not a very big county, you have an East and West split, this makes the congestion issue even more complicated.
3. Have one board instead of an East and a West. Every division from underage and right up could be made more competitive as it would be easier to categorise teams into divisions where they wouldn't get beaten out the door. This would feed right up to senior and eventually you'd have bigger number of competitive sides, hence you'd hope it would reduce the number of players with the urge to transfer.
Easier said that done I'd imagine.0 -
Has anyone got any genuine evidence of city clubs cherry picking players?
My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.
Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.0 -
Has anyone got any genuine evidence of city clubs cherry picking players?
My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.
Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.
Agree entirely, nobody going to say they approached a player for a start and the other part of that is, that it is the player who initially has to make the application and then the case (if required) to transfer.
It simply shouldn't be allowed to be done so easily and each applicant should be assessed on a case by case basis.
I think the underlying factor is the competitiveness of clubs at all levels and that you should do away with the east / west division to deal with this.0 -
Minor Hurling play-off Clare 0-18 Cork 1-9. Big win for Clare tonight no goals for them though, they scored three against Waterford last week, we have a lot of work to do to keep Tip from scoring goals.0
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well said i totally agreealllcounty wrote: »Underage standards have come on greatly, especially in the last 4 years. But we still have the problem of intermediate champions coming up to senior and they are totally out of their depth. Compare that to Kilkenny where Danesfort and Dicksboro have come up to senior in the last 2 years and are very competitive from playing in a county wide intermediate league and championship. The problem is with the intermediate structure and until that changes then clubs not in the top 8 in the county will always lag behind. Intermediate clubs coming together this year to form a league was an improvement giving these clubs more than 5 competive games per year but the structure is still divided into a west waterford and east waterford format thereby preventing intermediate clubs from either side of the county playing each other in a competitive league / championship. The saftey net for these teams is too big, and unless the team is very poor will it go down to junior. Only when the organising of an inclusive county intermediate structure similar to the senior structure will the standard of games improve for these teams.0 -
My understanding is that even when the likes of Mount Sion and Ballygunner were at their most active in this area, they didn't approach players, but they didn't necessarily turn them down either.
Also, how many players are we talking about here. Is it the odd player here or there or what are we talking about? I'm not aware of too many of the top players who've moved clubs.
When Mount sion were winning counties for fun in the late 90s to mid naughties there was loads of outsiders from smaller clubs. Anthony Kirwan, Ger Harris, Fintan O'Shea (Portlaw) Nicky Jacob (St Saviours) Micheal White (Dunhill) and more recently John Dee and Jason Phelan have transferred in. De la Salle currently have Jack Kennedy & Conan Watt as 2 key players for them and as for Ballygunner, they could put out a team of outsiders on their own of players who represented them in the last 15 years. I doubt theres any other county in the country where this goes on as strong.
This is not to mention many transfers occurring at underage level aswell.0 -
Well lads, any predictions for the weekend? Looking forward to hopefully a couple of tight games. Particularly dls and fourmilewater and passage an abbeyside.0
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mccarthy37 wrote: »Minor Hurling play-off Clare 0-18 Cork 1-9. Big win for Clare tonight no goals for them though, they scored three against Waterford last week, we have a lot of work to do to keep Tip from scoring goals.
Agreed. Chances are we'll have a completely new FB line for the semi. Still rather we found these flaws when we did, if wed played Kerry the first round we mightened have learned as much. At least we'll have that over Tipp.
Cork are really slipping at minor level in recent years. Caps off a dismal week for them overall0 -
Very difficult shouldn't mean that you don't bother.
I'd let every team below senior in. The likes of Kerry have strong group teams and it has improved their championship. I don't think a group team could win anything, but they should be competitive.
Some have won their County Final in recent years in Football. I dont see it do them any harm. How many Munster and All-Ireland finals have they appeared in, as a result of leaving players in lower grades play in the highest standard of football in the county. We dont allow groups teams and when we have them, things are made difficult for them and all sorts of politics comes into it. How many Munster (ok a few) finals and more over All-Irelands do we appear in.0 -
Lads is there a round of senior hurling championship games this weekend?0
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There is a full list of games venues and times on the Waterford gaa Facebook page for this weekend.DublinGAA96 wrote: »Lads is there a round of senior hurling championship games this weekend?0 -
Black Suir wrote: »Some have won their County Final in recent years in Football. I dont see it do them any harm. How many Munster and All-Ireland finals have they appeared in, as a result of leaving players in lower grades play in the highest standard of football in the county. We dont allow groups teams and when we have them, things are made difficult for them and all sorts of politics comes into it. How many Munster (ok a few) finals and more over All-Irelands do we appear in.
Are you saying the group teams are the reason their County team is so successful?
I wouldn't0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »Are you saying the group teams are the reason their County team is so successful?
I wouldn't
Bit of a stretch to say it is the reason behind the success, but it must help to have more players playing club football at the highest level. Same goes for Cork.
Kerry have an odd setup. There is the county championship which is for club sides and the five divisional sides, and then the club championship which is only for clubs. They also have divisional championships. Waterford clubs play about 5-10 games per year and we complain about fixture congestion!
The following from Kerry are current All Ireland winners who play on Group sides:- Killian Young - 3 All Irelands
- Tomas O'Se - 5 AI'S
- Marc O'Se - 1
- Anthony Maher - 1
- Paul Galvin - 4
- Darren O'Sullivan - 3
- Declan O'Sullivan - 4
- Aidan O'Mahony - 4
- Seamus Scanlon - 4
- Donnacha Walsh - 2
- Tom O'Sullivan - 5
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Bit of a stretch to say it is the reason behind the success, but it must help to have more players playing club football at the highest level. Same goes for Cork.
Kerry have an odd setup. There is the county championship which is for club sides and the five divisional sides, and then the club championship which is only for clubs. They also have divisional championships. Waterford clubs play about 5-10 games per year and we complain about fixture congestion!
The following from Kerry are current All Ireland winners who play on Group sides:- Killian Young - 3 All Irelands
- Tomas O'Se - 5 AI'S
- Marc O'Se - 1
- Anthony Maher - 1
- Paul Galvin - 4
- Darren O'Sullivan - 3
- Declan O'Sullivan - 4
- Aidan O'Mahony - 4
- Seamus Scanlon - 4
- Donnacha Walsh - 2
- Tom O'Sullivan - 5
Well worth remembering that Tomas and Marc both played for an Gaeltacht when they got to the All-Ireland final in 2003 or 2004.
But I both are bigger counties, and that's a football comparison.
When was the last time a group team won the County Hurling Championship in Cork?
Kilkenny and Tipp, as has been mentioned, don't have group teams.
Maybe less clubs would be a better way to go about it. Pride should not be a barrier to sense prevailing. Tourin and Cappoquin contested the Western Intermediate Final last year. On their own, either side would be hockeyed in the Senior championship, but I believe that if they joined together they could be competitive and they would grow as a team as both have promising young players. On their own though there is a limit to their ambition. Same with Tallow and Shamrocks I feel.
There are a few other clubs like Modeligo, Colligan, St Marys Touraneena, Ballinameela etc who have group team when they are younger and then split up when they reach adult level. I think these teams should just be joined, as it doesn't benefit them the fact that they may only get 3 or 4 off an u21 team that actually play for their club. Doesn't make sense. I don't care what people say about established parish boundaries, the fact is these areas as a whole are too small to have their own individual teams. Of course, any bitterness between these areas might prevent this from potentially happening, not that I think it will actually happen ever.
The problem with group teams the extent to which they have them in Kerry (or say Thomas McDonaghs which comprised of 9 teams in the Tipp Senior football team) is it is grossly unfair on other teams. I know someone who plays in Kerry and they don't like it at all. I'm sure some would argue that there a big population bases in Tralee and Killarney, and if the same argument was made here people would talk about the population in the City but that would exclude teams like Dingle in Kerry or Ballyduff Upper, Tallow and Fourmilewater here where there aren't many people living.
I would be against group teams based on what I've said and from what people say about past attempts it sounds like they weren't taken seriously, and I think it devalues the championship as well. A lot of people seem to think that the Club Championship is the Inter-County teams b*tch and that it should be setup to accomodate the Senior team in what ever way possible, and nobody cares too much as long as the County team is successful. Very inconsiderate of your ordinary club player.0 -
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Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.0
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Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.0
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mccarthy37 wrote: »Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.
A point well made...mccarthy37 wrote: »Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.
...A point well made0 -
Mountainlad wrote: »A point well made...
...A point well made
Lets just call it a mistake, you weren't a Christian Brother in Mount Slaughter in another life by any chance.0 -
mccarthy37 wrote: »Lets just call it a mistake, you weren't a Christian Brother in Mount Slaughter in another life by any chance.
If only!
Haha, sorry I'm just really bored!
I'd agree though, Ballyduff Lowers fall from grace has been dramatic. They hvae nothing coming through at underage either.0 -
mccarthy37 wrote: »Waterford will play Dublin in a hurling challenge Monday next, time and venue unknown anybody with any information on this. On the subject of transfers Jack Kennedy playing with De La Salle John O'leary playing with Mount Sion this is disastrous news for Ballyduff Lower this year. I heard a lot of rumours of discontent last year but I taught this could be sorted out being a small club, it should have been. What a pity as they were really making great progress a few years back. Its hard enough playing bigger more successful clubs but with them pooching some of their best players makes it nigh on impossible. This has been going on for years in Waterford to the detriment of smaller clubs doesn't seem fair does it.
Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.
From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.
I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?0 -
We all heading to the Open Training night thing tonight then?
...
No, just me?
>.<
I wonder will I get a prize for the oldest person attending whos not there to accompany children..0 -
Over the years plenty of players have been approached by big city clubs well and good Jack and John left of their own accord I stand corrected. Its still a great pity to see a club fall by the wayside you don't improve a club by leaving but I understand what you are saying. Ballyduf's loss is a gain for two big city clubs. Parrish rule would solve this problem do you think.Again, define poaching. Poaching defines that the clubs made a move and coerced both lads out from their home club.
From my understanding, Ballyduff were falling apart with the prospect of dropping down to junior. The lads decided they were better off moving on, Jack deciding on DLS and O'Leary on Mount Sion. If either of the clubs had been poaching they would probably have got both of them.
I've sympathy for the club, but I've sympathy for the players as well. It is very unfair if you're stuck with a messy and disorganised club, or maybe you are a footballer in a hurling club, or even a hurler in a footballing club. If a lad doesn't want to play for your club, what is the point having him anyway?0 -
mccarthy37 wrote: »Over the years plenty of players have been approached by big city clubs well and good Jack and John left of their own accord I stand corrected. Its still a great pity to see a club fall by the wayside you don't improve a club by leaving but I understand what you are saying. Ballyduf's loss is a gain for two big city clubs. Parrish rule would solve this problem do you think.
I don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.
Take another player. Tony Grey. DLS player, I'd say he won a good few underage county A medals and a couple of Feile titles with them. Lost an Intermediate county final and then joined Stradbally. I heard that a couple of other handy young lads were being eyed up by other senior football clubs at different ends of the county at the time also.
Grey goes on to win a few senior county medals with Stradbally, captains Waterford, and DLS are still knocking around intermediate. I'm sure he had his reasons. Goes both ways.0 -
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Tony is a great footballer did very well with a great Stradbally team point well madeI don't agree with forcing guys to play for a club. It makes sense for the current U16 setup to be parish rule, but adults should be free to do as they please. Many people won't agree with that.
Take another player. Tony Grey. DLS player, I'd say he won a good few underage county A medals and a couple of Feile titles with them. Lost an Intermediate county final and then joined Stradbally. I heard that a couple of other handy young lads were being eyed up by other senior football clubs at different ends of the county at the time also.
Grey goes on to win a few senior county medals with Stradbally, captains Waterford, and DLS are still knocking around intermediate. I'm sure he had his reasons. Goes both ways.0
This discussion has been closed.
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