Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

soggy biscuit

A ya, forgot about that.

PTH2009

if we are too lose to offaly so Michael Ryan and co call it a day ??. Yeah great acivement in the league and all that but could of quite easily lost them games

It will be our shortest championship campaign since 2001 if Offaly beat us. Id say Westmeath/London will be an easy game for the winners so our game is bacisilly a fight out to get to phase 3 ( in fairness London/Westmeath are division 2 teams and Offaly/Waterford should beat them)

Mountainlad

PTH2009 wrote: »

if we are too lose to offaly so Michael Ryan and co call it a day ??. Yeah great acivement in the league and all that but could of quite easily lost them games

It will be our shortest championship campaign since 2001 if Offaly beat us. Id say Westmeath/London will be an easy game for the winners so our game is bacisilly a fight out to get to phase 3 ( in fairness London/Westmeath are division 2 teams and Offaly/Waterford should beat them)

First of all, that point doesn't standup. Sure Kilkenny could 'easily' have lost to Clare and Cork and been in a relegation playoff rather than ending up as league champions.

I have an issue with the term 'easily lost'. I know what you mean by it, but the fact is the term itself suggest that it would have been easy to lose the games they won.

Of course it would, sure if they just went out and stood there and pucked the ball to the opposition they would of course lose.

To use that as a basis for discrediting a victory is unfair however, as the games against Tipp and Clare were not games that were easily won.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Moving on (ranting a bit there) I do believe that if they lose that the management will find it hard to convince the board of another term, unless the board really can't find a suitable replacement at an appropriate cost. But I guess it's at their discretion, and neither I nor you know how they think and at the end of the day it's not very constructive to be talking about what might happen to the management if we lose.

That is a discussion that will have plenty of debate should we lose, so maybe best to wait and see what happens on that one.

cleaboy boy

It's September 2013, here's a look back at how our summer went.

After scraping to a narrow 2 point win in Tullamore, with a late flurry of points from Maurice Shanahan ( 2 ) , Daragh Fives and substitute Martin O'Neill, Waterford easily overcame the challenge of Westmeath in Mulingar the following week, the highlight of this game was the return of Tony Browne to action, another notable aspect was Brian O'Sullivan grabbing 1.6 from play to surely play himself into manager Michael Ryan's plans.

In Phase 3, Waterford held on for another hard earned victory over Dublin, the turning point was the sending off of Ryan O'Dwyer for an off the ball incident with Liam Lawlor. the final score of 1.21 to 2.11 in Waterford's favour just about tells the story of a sometimes dour encounter, manager Micheal Ryan was relieved to have gotten out of Thurles with a win, and said that the team are now on a roll after getting 3 wins in a row.

The quarter final draw pitted us against Galway, who were still smarting after a provincial final hiding to the Cats. This game in Thurles was a thriller with Waterford holding on for victory at the end, the fitness ( which some called into question after the tame exit to Clare ) stood to the lads, and Shane Walsh's goal near the end was the difference between the 2 teams. Galway's awful record of never having won a championship game against the Deise continued. A jubilant Sean Cullinane proclaimed that Waterford would be a match for anyone in the semi final.

The semi final pitted the Deise men against Munster victors Limerick, John Allen had been critical of the long lay off Limerick faced after provincial glory, and it took the Treaty men 20 minutes to settle into the game, Daragh Fives was giving an exhibition at midfield, scoring 0.4 from play in this period. His brother Shane was also excellent in the full back line, and Seamus Pender capitalised on a moment of indecision in the Limerick defence to get his boot on the sliothar and kick it to the back of the net.

The second half left Limerick with too much to do and the Deise men eased into an All Ireland final on a scoreline of 1.23 to 0.19.

Keeping expectation low before the final against Tipp was always going to be a problem, but the 08 experience stood to the team and backroom team and the lads were kept out of the media spotlight. 1 open training session was held to satisfy public demand, but the lads kept their eye firmly on the ball.

The day arrived, and on a sodden Croke Park surface, Waterford emerged victorious on a day to remember for Kevin Moran and his troops. the never say die attitude after conceding an early goal to John O'Brien was admirable. Jamie Nagle and Brick were a half back stronghold, Moran and Fives held their own at midfield. The net minding of SOK was as reliable as ever.

The sight of Moran raising Liam aloft that day and returning over the bridge shoulder high will stay with me forever. A tale for the grand kids....

Thank you lads, I'm proud to be a Deise man....

WumBuster

cleaboy boy wrote: »

It's September 2013, here's a look back at how our summer went.

After scraping to a narrow 2 point win in Tullamore, with a late flurry of points from Maurice Shanahan ( 2 ) , Daragh Fives and substitute Martin O'Neill, Waterford easily overcame the challenge of Westmeath in Mulingar the following week, the highlight of this game was the return of Tony Browne to action, another notable aspect was Brian O'Sullivan grabbing 1.6 from play to surely play himself into manager Michael Ryan's plans.

In Phase 3, Waterford held on for another hard earned victory over Dublin, the turning point was the sending off of Ryan O'Dwyer for an off the ball incident with Liam Lawlor. the final score of 1.21 to 2.11 in Waterford's favour just about tells the story of a sometimes dour encounter, manager Micheal Ryan was relieved to have gotten out of Thurles with a win, and said that the team are now on a roll after getting 3 wins in a row.

The quarter final draw pitted us against Galway, who were still smarting after a provincial final hiding to the Cats. This game in Thurles was a thriller with Waterford holding on for victory at the end, the fitness ( which some called into question after the tame exit to Clare ) stood to the lads, and Shane Walsh's goal near the end was the difference between the 2 teams. Galway's awful record of never having won a championship game against the Deise continued. A jubilant Sean Cullinane proclaimed that Waterford would be a match for anyone in the semi final.

The semi final pitted the Deise men against Munster victors Limerick, John Allen had been critical of the long lay off Limerick faced after provincial glory, and it took the Treaty men 20 minutes to settle into the game, Daragh Fives was giving an exhibition at midfield, scoring 0.4 from play in this period. His brother Shane was also excellent in the full back line, and Seamus Pender capitalised on a moment of indecision in the Limerick defence to get his boot on the sliothar and kick it to the back of the net.

The second half left Limerick with too much to do and the Deise men eased into an All Ireland final on a scoreline of 1.23 to 0.19.

Keeping expectation low before the final against Tipp was always going to be a problem, but the 08 experience stood to the team and backroom team and the lads were kept out of the media spotlight. 1 open training session was held to satisfy public demand, but the lads kept their eye firmly on the ball.

The day arrived, and on a sodden Croke Park surface, Waterford emerged victorious on a day to remember for Kevin Moran and his troops. the never say die attitude after conceding an early goal to John O'Brien was admirable. Jamie Nagle and Brick were a half back stronghold, Moran and Fives held their own at midfield. The net minding of SOK was as reliable as ever.

The sight of Moran raising Liam aloft that day and returning over the bridge shoulder high will stay with me forever. A tale for the grand kids....

Thank you lads, I'm proud to be a Deise man....

What are the odds, eh? And what happened to kilkenny? Not impossible. Tipp in 2010 came with a strong run from the first round of the qualifiers and i seem to remmember Clare did it one year too. Of course we got to an AI final ourselves in '08 after losing the first round to Clare. A few handy wins in the space of a few weeks would do wonders for the confidence.

Jarjohn

cleaboy boy wrote: »

It's September 2013, here's a look back at how our summer went.

After scraping to a narrow 2 point win in Tullamore, with a late flurry of points from Maurice Shanahan ( 2 ) , Daragh Fives and substitute Martin O'Neill, Waterford easily overcame the challenge of Westmeath in Mulingar the following week, the highlight of this game was the return of Tony Browne to action, another notable aspect was Brian O'Sullivan grabbing 1.6 from play to surely play himself into manager Michael Ryan's plans.

In Phase 3, Waterford held on for another hard earned victory over Dublin, the turning point was the sending off of Ryan O'Dwyer for an off the ball incident with Liam Lawlor. the final score of 1.21 to 2.11 in Waterford's favour just about tells the story of a sometimes dour encounter, manager Micheal Ryan was relieved to have gotten out of Thurles with a win, and said that the team are now on a roll after getting 3 wins in a row.

The quarter final draw pitted us against Galway, who were still smarting after a provincial final hiding to the Cats. This game in Thurles was a thriller with Waterford holding on for victory at the end, the fitness ( which some called into question after the tame exit to Clare ) stood to the lads, and Shane Walsh's goal near the end was the difference between the 2 teams. Galway's awful record of never having won a championship game against the Deise continued. A jubilant Sean Cullinane proclaimed that Waterford would be a match for anyone in the semi final.

The semi final pitted the Deise men against Munster victors Limerick, John Allen had been critical of the long lay off Limerick faced after provincial glory, and it took the Treaty men 20 minutes to settle into the game, Daragh Fives was giving an exhibition at midfield, scoring 0.4 from play in this period. His brother Shane was also excellent in the full back line, and Seamus Pender capitalised on a moment of indecision in the Limerick defence to get his boot on the sliothar and kick it to the back of the net.

The second half left Limerick with too much to do and the Deise men eased into an All Ireland final on a scoreline of 1.23 to 0.19.

Keeping expectation low before the final against Tipp was always going to be a problem, but the 08 experience stood to the team and backroom team and the lads were kept out of the media spotlight. 1 open training session was held to satisfy public demand, but the lads kept their eye firmly on the ball.

The day arrived, and on a sodden Croke Park surface, Waterford emerged victorious on a day to remember for Kevin Moran and his troops. the never say die attitude after conceding an early goal to John O'Brien was admirable. Jamie Nagle and Brick were a half back stronghold, Moran and Fives held their own at midfield. The net minding of SOK was as reliable as ever.

The sight of Moran raising Liam aloft that day and returning over the bridge shoulder high will stay with me forever. A tale for the grand kids....

Thank you lads, I'm proud to be a Deise man....

Go down to Paddy Powers and put €50 of your good money on Waterford at 66/1. You can then show the docket in years to come to your grand kids and tell them about the mad dreams you used to have, as you wont be collecting it. A quarter final appearance at this stage would be good, no very good. Anything past that...remarkable

Morte

PTH2009 wrote: »

if we are too lose to offaly so Michael Ryan and co call it a day ??. Yeah great acivement in the league and all that but could of quite easily lost them games

It will be our shortest championship campaign since 2001 if Offaly beat us. Id say Westmeath/London will be an easy game for the winners so our game is bacisilly a fight out to get to phase 3 ( in fairness London/Westmeath are division 2 teams and Offaly/Waterford should beat them)

If we score two points all match then yes. If Brick and Moran both get themselves sent off in the first five minutes then I'd say it wasn't his fault. Fair enough? Rather than making clandestine payments to managers the Waterford board will be hard pressed to provide the same support to the hurlers as other counties get. The team will require a lot of transition which doesn't lend itself to glory. Unless Brian Cody gets bored with having it too easy or something I wouldn't hold my breath on somebody much better than Michael Ryan coming along. He's done a decent job so far, especially keeping division one status. He's not perfect and we should always monitor if we could improve but no need to have the knives out yet.

It's a tough game well set up for an ambush but some are gong overboard with the negativity. We're a division higher than them the last few years including this year with Mullane and co gone. We've better players than they do and shouldn't forget that. The KK and Dublin games which Fireball mentioned both saw them put up a great fight but they failed to get beyond single digit point tallies and relied on goals. I won't call this a fluke. They have good forwards and carry a goal threat. But it's much harder to keep scoring goals than it is to maintain a points tally. By all means we should respect them, it'll be a tough battle. But let's not forget who we are too.

Mr Tibbs

cleaboy boy wrote: »

It's September 2013, here's a look back at how our summer went.

After scraping to a narrow 2 point win in Tullamore, with a late flurry of points from Maurice Shanahan ( 2 ) , Daragh Fives and substitute Martin O'Neill, Waterford easily overcame the challenge of Westmeath in Mulingar the following week, the highlight of this game was the return of Tony Browne to action, another notable aspect was Brian O'Sullivan grabbing 1.6 from play to surely play himself into manager Michael Ryan's plans.

In Phase 3, Waterford held on for another hard earned victory over Dublin, the turning point was the sending off of Ryan O'Dwyer for an off the ball incident with Liam Lawlor. the final score of 1.21 to 2.11 in Waterford's favour just about tells the story of a sometimes dour encounter, manager Micheal Ryan was relieved to have gotten out of Thurles with a win, and said that the team are now on a roll after getting 3 wins in a row.

The quarter final draw pitted us against Galway, who were still smarting after a provincial final hiding to the Cats. This game in Thurles was a thriller with Waterford holding on for victory at the end, the fitness ( which some called into question after the tame exit to Clare ) stood to the lads, and Shane Walsh's goal near the end was the difference between the 2 teams. Galway's awful record of never having won a championship game against the Deise continued. A jubilant Sean Cullinane proclaimed that Waterford would be a match for anyone in the semi final.

The semi final pitted the Deise men against Munster victors Limerick, John Allen had been critical of the long lay off Limerick faced after provincial glory, and it took the Treaty men 20 minutes to settle into the game, Daragh Fives was giving an exhibition at midfield, scoring 0.4 from play in this period. His brother Shane was also excellent in the full back line, and Seamus Pender capitalised on a moment of indecision in the Limerick defence to get his boot on the sliothar and kick it to the back of the net.

The second half left Limerick with too much to do and the Deise men eased into an All Ireland final on a scoreline of 1.23 to 0.19.

Keeping expectation low before the final against Tipp was always going to be a problem, but the 08 experience stood to the team and backroom team and the lads were kept out of the media spotlight. 1 open training session was held to satisfy public demand, but the lads kept their eye firmly on the ball.

The day arrived, and on a sodden Croke Park surface, Waterford emerged victorious on a day to remember for Kevin Moran and his troops. the never say die attitude after conceding an early goal to John O'Brien was admirable. Jamie Nagle and Brick were a half back stronghold, Moran and Fives held their own at midfield. The net minding of SOK was as reliable as ever.

The sight of Moran raising Liam aloft that day and returning over the bridge shoulder high will stay with me forever. A tale for the grand kids....

Thank you lads, I'm proud to be a Deise man....

If Carlsberg did dreams they would look like this.

Cake Man

Morte wrote: »

It's a tough game well set up for an ambush but some are gong overboard with the negativity. We're a division higher than them the last few years including this year with Mullane and co gone. We've better players than they do and shouldn't forget that. The KK and Dublin games which Fireball mentioned both saw them put up a great fight but they failed to get beyond single digit point tallies and relied on goals. I won't call this a fluke. They have good forwards and carry a goal threat. But it's much harder to keep scoring goals than it is to maintain a points tally. By all means we should respect them, it'll be a tough battle. But let's not forget who we are too.

I agree with this, they won't be bad at all and will know this is a serious opportunity to do something, especially on their own patch but we have plenty of players capable of winning a game for us too.
I think the players will not underestimate them as Offaly have done enough recently to warrant a level respect and to be taken seriously. The lads will know what's at stake and that the prospect of the summer being over before the end of June I think will ensure they focus on this and not look past it.
As another poster mentioned recently, the fact that senior championship games have been postponed until after the Offaly game gives me the impression management at least are taking the challenge very seriously.

Hidalgo

Cake Man wrote: »

I agree with this, they won't be bad at all and will know this is a serious opportunity to do something, especially on their own patch but we have plenty of players capable of winning a game for us too.
I think the players will not underestimate them as Offaly have done enough recently to warrant a level respect and to be taken seriously. The lads will know what's at stake and that the prospect of the summer being over before the end of June I think will ensure they focus on this and not look past it.
As another poster mentioned recently, the fact that senior championship games have been postponed until after the Offaly game gives me the impression management at least are taking the challenge very seriously.

As they should be, championship wins of note have been scarce for Offaly hurling in recent times.
The fact that they have home advantage after giving it a right lash V KK should have them in the frame of mind that they have the ability to get one over Waterford,
not saying they will, but that's how I'd be thinking if I was an Offaly man

liogairmhordain

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

If Carlsberg did dreams they would look like this.

interesting that not even in our craziest dreams can we envisage beating kilkenny....

Horseboxhead

When are the u21's out v Clare , That has to be up soon?. Any thoughts on that team?.

hardybuck

Deise_2012 wrote: »

what a loss jamie barron is to the team, from the start de la salle just dominated, fourmile weren't even trying in the 2nd half never looked like they wanted to win it. few digs and shoulders thrown mullanes way in the 2nd half, don't think the fourmile players took too kindly to the comments he made about michael ryan

You'd think that they'd calm down after the incident where he swallowed his tongue following a late challenge a few years back. But for the presence and quick thinking of Declan Spellman he might have died on the field.

I presume Walsh wasn't playing either?

robopaddy

Horseboxhead wrote: »

When are the u21's out v Clare , That has to be up soon?. Any thoughts on that team?.

18th July.

They havent had any of the senior lads for many of the challenge games theyve played but still look to be going ok. A lot of less well known names (lads that wouldnt have been prominent in the minor teams over the last few years) have been getting a chance and a few of the Dungaravan Colleges AI/Harty winning (lads who would be over the age for minor) aswell which is good to see. I think its important to freshen things up and as weve seen last year just because a lad is good at minor dosent automatically mean he can make the step up to u21s.

I think the big thing is a performance against Clare to avenge for the mauling in Ennis last year. Another defeat like that could set us back years. With home advantage in a once off game anything can happen. But realistically Clare are favourites for the All Ireland again so it will be a big ask

Mountainlad

Morte wrote: »

. By all means we should respect them, it'll be a tough battle. But let's not forget who we are too.

I really, really like how you put that!

hardybuck wrote: »

You'd think that they'd calm down after the incident where he swallowed his tongue following a late challenge a few years back. But for the presence and quick thinking of Declan Spellman he might have died on the field.

I presume Walsh wasn't playing either?

Were you at the game on Tuesday, Hardy? How did you feel yourself about how Mullane was treated?

Didn't read that properly, you obviously weren't at the game. Shane Walsh played the whole game. No great offense meant by this, and I really don't want to get into an argument here, but do you think having not been at the game the statement you made is a bit unfair?

Sure enough, back in '07 (I think it was) Mullane could have died on the field and thankfully that didn't happen. To blame a whole team for a late challenge by one player who doesn't even play for the hurlers anymore is unfair. Especially given you can't even be sure that Mullane was subjected to this special treatment that is being suggested. And for the record I don't think he was. The only time I saw players hit him was after he made a high tackle on a 16 year old...with 30 seconds left and De La Salle 14 points up. If it was my team, and that happened near me I'd be straight in to let him know what I thought of it too.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Were you at the game on Tuesday, Hardy? How did you feel yourself about how Mullane was treated?

I wasn't, but I'm trusting another poster who mentions digs and shoulders going in on him. If they were for expressing his views on the preparation of the Waterford team as the poster implied, then I think that's a bit over the top. Possibly unfair reaction having not been there to witness it, but some of the abuse he gets and has got on the field is disgraceful, so you expect the worst when you hear of him being singled out.

How did Walsh perform? Does he look fit, and possibly in contention for next weekend?

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

I wasn't, but I'm trusting another poster who mentions digs and shoulders going in on him. If they were for expressing his views on the preparation of the Waterford team as the poster implied, then I think that's a bit over the top. Possibly unfair reaction having not been there to witness it, but some of the abuse he gets and has got on the field is disgraceful, so you expect the worst when you hear of him being singled out.

How did Walsh perform? Does he look fit, and possibly in contention for next weekend?

I don't doubt that it's true, and he always held is nerve particularly well for Waterford giving the abuse he used get. But Tuesday night was a case of any digs being preempted by himself, and I certainly didn't see any nasty off the ball incidents where players looked to be winding him up.

He played reasonably well, nearly goaled late on. He scored 0-2 points I think. He played wing forward for most of the game.

He will definitely play against Offaly, I'd say he'll start. Not sure though that he'll be fit enough to last the whole game but I suppose we'll see. Don't think he has played a whole match since Michael Ryan took over.

Mountainlad

By the way, James McGrath (referee from the Clare game this year and last) has been confirmed to ref the match v Offaly.

PTH2009

Mountainlad wrote: »

By the way, James McGrath (referee from the Clare game this year and last) has been confirmed to ref the match v Offaly.

good or a bad thing

Mountainlad

PTH2009 wrote: »

good or a bad thing

Dunno really. Some people were unhappy with him against Clare, to be honest I saw a few bad calls but I don't think that had a bearing on the result. Maybe if the game was tighter I would have a different view. Last year, he gave us the big call when Kelly won a penalty when it should have been a free out.

My one worry that when a referee continuously referees the same team's matches they can enter with preconceived notions about what players tend to bend the rules. That said, it's more a point of information than necessarily a good or bad thing. I don't think any ref at this level goes out to screw a team, so if the ref is bad they could be easily be as bad for the opposition as for ourselves.

cleaboy boy

Confirmation from RTE that Offaly V Waterford will NOT be broadcast live on TV.

"we will NOT be covering the game live.
The GAA decided before the last contract to reduce the number of LIVE games we are permitted to show.

One of the ten games we are now not PERMITTED is Preliminary Hurling Qualifier.
Live coverage on radio and extended highlights on Sunday night.

Thanks"

Mr Tibbs

Well I thought James McGrath had a big bearing on the game in the first half. Shane Sullivan was clearly pulled down right in front of him and he let it go, a miss struck sideline was allowed to be taken again about 25 metres from our goal which resulted in a point for Clare and Daragh Fives through on goal with the goalie beaten and he blew that back, was fatal for us. Seamus Pender was fouled numerous time right through the game I lost count with very little given while similar fouls committed by Waterford players were penalised with a free. You could see the confidence draining out of the lads and this really gave Clare a lift right when they were begining to struggle under Waterford pressure. The few extra scores near the end of the game made the result look an awful lot worse for us but for a long spell in this game Waterford were competing very well. I just hope he wont be as poor for us the next day against Offally because little decisions by a referee against you can really knock you off your stride. All in all though Clare were the beter team at the final whistle. Offaly are pretty confident and are quite pleased to have drawn Waterford at home it should be a very good game but I wouldn't care if it was a poor game so long as we won.

soggy biscuit

I tought he wasn poor in the Clare match any way

Fireball07

cleaboy boy wrote: »

Confirmation from RTE that Offaly V Waterford will NOT be broadcast live on TV.

"we will NOT be covering the game live.
The GAA decided before the last contract to reduce the number of LIVE games we are permitted to show.

One of the ten games we are now not PERMITTED is Preliminary Hurling Qualifier.
Live coverage on radio and extended highlights on Sunday night.

Thanks"

The GAA are idiots...

KevIRL

cleaboy boy wrote: »

Confirmation from RTE that Offaly V Waterford will NOT be broadcast live on TV.

"we will NOT be covering the game live.
The GAA decided before the last contract to reduce the number of LIVE games we are permitted to show.

One of the ten games we are now not PERMITTED is Preliminary Hurling Qualifier.
Live coverage on radio and extended highlights on Sunday night.

Thanks"

FFS as I feared. What a load of bollocks

Professey Chin

So will anyone be able to show it live?

KevIRL

Chinpool wrote: »

So will anyone be able to show it live?

Nope its not an RTE decision. The GAA in their infinite wisdom decided a few years back to greatly restrict the amount of qualifier games that can be shown live, even though these are knock out and usually very entertaining esp compared to the non-knockout provincial games that they have no problem in allowing lots of live coverage of.

hardybuck

KevIRL wrote: »

Nope its not an RTE decision. The GAA in their infinite wisdom decided a few years back to greatly restrict the amount of qualifier games that can be shown live, even though these are knock out and usually very entertaining esp compared to the non-knockout provincial games that they have no problem in allowing lots of live coverage of.

I think the GAA put pressure on them to restrict the amount of Live games as it was impacting attendances.

Professey Chin

KevIRL wrote: »

Nope its not an RTE decision. The GAA in their infinite wisdom decided a few years back to greatly restrict the amount of qualifier games that can be shown live, even though these are knock out and usually very entertaining esp compared to the non-knockout provincial games that they have no problem in allowing lots of live coverage of.

Balls. Now I have figuring out to do

blue note

cleaboy boy wrote: »

Confirmation from RTE that Offaly V Waterford will NOT be broadcast live on TV.

"we will NOT be covering the game live.
The GAA decided before the last contract to reduce the number of LIVE games we are permitted to show.

One of the ten games we are now not PERMITTED is Preliminary Hurling Qualifier.
Live coverage on radio and extended highlights on Sunday night.

Thanks"

:mad:FFS! I might not be able to go to the game now (our match might be moved to Saturday) and was looking forward to looking at it on TV or at least taping it and looking at it later.

I'm just pi$$ed off now. A stupid decision by the GAA that benefits no-one.