Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

PTH2009

When we played Clare they were going for 3rd time lucky and they got it and we are now playing Offaly who are going for 3rd time lucky (we beat them in 2005 and 2008).

Waterford are not used to playing in Tullamore.

BTW what time will the game be on and will it be on RTE

deiseach

PTH2009 wrote: »

When we played Clare they were going for 3rd time lucky and they got it and we are now playing Offaly who are going for 3rd time lucky (we beat them in 2005 and 2008).

Galway might have said the same when they played us in 1957. Fifty-six years and eight games later, they're still waiting.

cleaboy boy

99% certain that it will be a 7.00 throw in at Tullamore on Sat week, the 22nd June.

RTE certain to show this also.

Mountainlad

Hidalgo wrote: »

One thing for the Waterford backs, the Offaly forwards seem way more physical than Clare's. Almost senior compared to U21.

Definitely the tie of the round ans from a neutral pov, its good to see a match up like that.

Agree with most of what you've said but at the same time Clare have big forwards like John Conlon and Honan. I know Honan looks thin, and has had injuries, but I'd say he's still physically imposing player. He's quite heavy, I remember seeing his weight once, probably on account of having large bones so he would not be easy knocked off a ball. I don't think Offaly have forwards with the class of Tony Kelly or Conor McGrath either, though I've always liked Joe Bergin. They are big though, but to be honest I think in the half back line we are better equipped to deal with big players rather than fast, skilful players.

PTH2009 wrote: »

When we played Clare they were going for 3rd time lucky and they got it and we are now playing Offaly who are going for 3rd time lucky (we beat them in 2005 and 2008).

Waterford are not used to playing in Tullamore.

BTW what time will the game be on and will it be on RTE

Ah yeah, that'll be where the game is decided the flawless law of "third time lucky" :rolleyes:


As far as the draw think it's the second toughest draw we could have had (maybe the toughest, though the fact that Wexford/Dublin will have had an extra game could count for a lot.) Was hoping we'd get a tough draw though I would have liked it to be at home. Offaly will be delighted they're in Tullamore, that would have been their main concern. Still though, while I don't think they will be throwing bricks through windows today I don't believe they'll be rubbing their hands with glee at the draw. We have the best championship record of any of the teams in the qualifiers at the moment (not including Tipp but they aren't really in it yet) going back at least as far back as 1999.

It's like Kev says, if we can't beat Offaly than we don't deserve to progress. Simple. And I think if we do win this game it's a massive confidence boost for the team. The whole point of being in the qualifiers is that the younger players play good opposition and get as many competitive games as possible. Long term, it will have very positive effects. No us playing London and Carlow and then getting hammered in the next round.

To be honest, if we do progress, I'd have preferred to be playing either Dublin or Wexford. Some people might say that so many tough games means a team is bound to lose, as all they need to have is one off day an they'll be caught, but the more competitive games the team gets the better, and I think it would be more use for whatever team wins in two weeks time to be playing a tough team before they play a winner from Phase 2 who will have had a really tough game most likely in their previous game.

The only thing I'd change about the draw is that we'd be at home. By the way, I know it's not designed to be that way, but we've awful hard luck with being drawn away. The footballers haven't had a home qualifier since 2006 at least.

In 2005, we had two away games (the Offaly game was in Carlow for the purposes of having a double header with the Offaly and Carlow footballers.)

2006 was the same, although going to Mullingar and Portlaoise was probably preferable to going to Salthill and having the other two games at home.

2008 was maybe the only one we were fortunate in that the only hoe and away game we managed to avoid playing going to Belfast.

Still though, it seems we are drawn away in both codes on pretty much every occasion we can be!!

Fireball07

We played Offaly in the league, and it was weirdly similar to the match yesterday, we beat them 0-21 to 3-8.


They started brilliantly, went 2-3 to 0-1 up, Shane Dooley ran riot but once we got a grip on him, they weren't able to score. They simply didn't have the ability to take their points and we eased to victory in the end, even though they did get another goal and we only won by 4 points. If you can handle the high balls into Bergin/Egan and keep an eye on Dooley, their scoring threat isn't great.


Their defensive intensity against KK was superb, in the first half mainly, but if you're patient you can break them down. I think Offaly are good, but Waterford should beat them.

Hidalgo

Mountainlad wrote: »

Agree with most of what you've said but at the same time Clare have big forwards like John Conlon and Honan. I know Honan looks thin, and has had injuries, but I'd say he's still physically imposing player. He's quite heavy, I remember seeing his weight once, probably on account of having large bones so he would not be easy knocked off a ball. I don't think Offaly have forwards with the class of Tony Kelly or Conor McGrath either, though I've always liked Joe Bergin. They are big though, but to be honest I think in the half back line we are better equipped to deal with big players rather than fast, skilful players.

Honan doesn't put himself about physically nor is he very strong at picking ball out of the sky.
Offaly appeared to be all big men, but not the motility of the names you mentioned, Kelly and McGrath.
If Waterford forwards can put pressure on the Offaly backs, then the supply won't be top quality. I know it was pumped in high yesterday, but pressurise them and you could see deliveries going out over the end line.
Dooley was one that was very quiet yesterday, if he has a big day, that ups Offaly's chances big time.

Mountainlad

Fireball07 wrote: »

We played Offaly in the league, and it was weirdly similar to the match yesterday, we beat them 0-21 to 3-8.


They started brilliantly, went 2-3 to 0-1 up, Shane Dooley ran riot but once we got a grip on him, they weren't able to score. They simply didn't have the ability to take their points and we eased to victory in the end, even though they did get another goal and we only won by 4 points. If you can handle the high balls into Bergin/Egan and keep an eye on Dooley, their scoring threat isn't great.


Their defensive intensity against KK was superb, in the first half mainly, but if you're patient you can break them down. I think Offaly are good, but Waterford should beat them.

I think that while they put up a great fight yesterday (and that wa the biggest thing, along with a super goal by Bergin) they had all the luck too (bar that one ball not crossing the line). Colin Fennelly was about to goal and a hurley was thrown which knocked the ball away from him, should have been a penalty and a yellow. Cathal Parlon should have been sent off. If those two things had happened I reckon it probably wouldn't have been the tight game it seemed in the end, though it must be remembered that Offaly scored two goals in the last 8 minutes. It was a Kilkenny that no compulsion to really hammer home the game, they were content with just winning it.

It will certainly boost Offaly's confidence, and that is the biggest thing to draw from the game. Them being at home is certainly a big thing for them too. They have been close to winning a few games in the qualifiers the last few years as well. But I think they're a team we are well equipped to handle their forwards. Dooley is one of the best forwards in the Country, Noel Connors though is a great man marker. Ultimately, it's the platform provided from the back line, the supply that would define what a forward will score (or at least how many chances he will get) so we will lose the game if our half forward line is wiped out like it was against Clare.


You would hope that we'd improve in that department though the next day, and that coupled with better creativity and we would be favourites. Either way though I can't see there being much in it.

robopaddy

Hand on heart I honestly dont beleive this theory 'we should be beating Offaly'. A few years ago yes when we had a forward line of Flynn, McGrath, Shanahan, Mullane, Kelly etc. Yes we will be favourites but I was very impressed with that Offaly team yesterday. They matched Kilkenny for physicality and really tore into them from the off.

I thought they lived on the edge a little even but certainly had Kilkenny rattled for a while. They are a huge team and a worry for us is that a lot of our younger players are a bit on the light side and going up to Tullamore to take on a very agressive physical Offaly team could be a daunting task. Yes we might have the cleaner crisper hurlers but we cannot allow ourselves to be bullied out of it up there otherwise we could be in for a tough evening.

noiniho

Offaly had a team of big hoors and they were up for the battle right until the last minute even when they were clearly going to lose. They are fit out and I have never seen Joe Bergin looking so lean and fit.

Waterford on the other hand have very little physicality in the forwards and unlike Offaly did not fight until the last minute even though they are trained by Pat Flanagan reputed to be one of the best physical coaches in the country. Basically a few fellas threw in the towel early and we were beaten after 60 minutes. We dont have a reliable free taker I thought Mahony was goin to be a lethal free taker and saw him score every one in the minor a few years ago against cork, but it doesn't seem to be going his way and we always seem to be switching free takers now so that is not a good sign.

I am very worried about going to Tullamore, but when you look at the players we cannot call on from last year, Daniels, foley, molumphy, mullane, Kelly, Eoin McGrath, Shane Walsh, some lads coming to the end of their inter county careers, but experienced players that could make all the difference against Offaly. Just to be missing them all in such a close time period is difficult for our squad to deal with.
I think the best we can hope for is for some new leaders to emerge over what will be a difficult few years, and the young lads now will be the core of an emerging team that I have no doubt will go places

Mr Tibbs

A lot of nerves have surfaced since we were drawn against Offaly. The very poor display against Clare is a big worry as the team looked rudderless in that game and if its repeated against The Faithful county our year will be over. We beat Offaly well in a challenge game a few weeks ago so lets see the value of challenge results now. Tullamore is a tough place to come out of with a win but a win we must get to make anything of this year. If the team fade again in the second half well Pat Flanagan's fitness regime will be a complete failure because Clare were the much fitter team the last day. Its all to play for and its going to be one tough game but what else would you want afterall this is championship now its either sink or swim. I wonder who will be the goalie for the next day.

seananigans

I always get worried when we're supposed to win a game

poolboy

Mountainlad wrote: »

The only thing I'd change about the draw is that we'd be at home. By the way, I know it's not designed to be that way, but we've awful hard luck with being drawn away. The footballers haven't had a home qualifier since 2006 at least.

In 2005, we had two away games (the Offaly game was in Carlow for the purposes of having a double header with the Offaly and Carlow footballers.)

2006 was the same, although going to Mullingar and Portlaoise was probably preferable to going to Salthill and having the other two games at home.

2008 was maybe the only one we were fortunate in that the only hoe and away game we managed to avoid playing going to Belfast.

Still though, it seems we are drawn away in both codes on pretty much every occasion we can be!!

Offaly were away to cork last two years. Due a bit of luck to.

robopaddy

Our minors were annhialated by kk in a challenge game tonite. Im hopin we were missing a good lot due to leaving cert and kk werent. Furthermore cork minors beat dublin 4-22 to 0-14 so manfromcheese and co. Assessment that we'll p**s all over cork in the semi final might be just slightly wide of the mark

Mountainlad

poolboy wrote: »

Offaly were away to cork last two years. Due a bit of luck to.

Absolutely. I'd hate to see us lose, but certainly wouldn't begrudge them a win.

Just making an observation. There's no basis for complaining in a totally random draw, it's just the way it tends to fall. Hasn't really hampered us in the Hurling, moreso in the football, but it certainly is a factor in this game when looking at yesterday's game.

robopaddy wrote: »

Our minors were annhialated by kk in a challenge game tonite. Im hopin we were missing a good lot due to leaving cert and kk werent. Furthermore cork minors beat dublin 4-22 to 0-14 so manfromcheese and co. Assessment that we'll p**s all over cork in the semi final might be just slightly wide of the mark

No way we'll hammer Cork in their own backyard. That said, I wouldn't be getting overly bothered by challenge matches either. Saw the teams from the last two Waterford played and they were totally different.

ManFromCheese

robopaddy wrote: »

Our minors were annhialated by kk in a challenge game tonite. Im hopin we were missing a good lot due to leaving cert and kk werent. Furthermore cork minors beat dublin 4-22 to 0-14 so manfromcheese and co. Assessment that we'll p**s all over cork in the semi final might be just slightly wide of the mark

show me the post where I said we'd "p**s all over cork"? I said that I expect us to beat them, I still do, I wouldn't read too much into challenge game results, who knows what kind of teams were put out by the 4 teams.

Hslaw

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

A lot of nerves have surfaced since we were drawn against Offaly. The very poor display against Clare is a big worry as the team looked rudderless in that game and if its repeated against The Faithful county our year will be over. We beat Offaly well in a challenge game a few weeks ago so lets see the value of challenge results now. Tullamore is a tough place to come out of with a win but a win we must get to make anything of this year. If the team fade again in the second half well Pat Flanagan's fitness regime will be a complete failure because Clare were the much fitter team the last day. Its all to play for and its going to be one tough game but what else would you want afterall this is championship now its either sink or swim. I wonder who will be the goalie for the next day.

please let it be socky

Cake Man

Offaly away is going to be a serious test for us. If we were at home, I'd be expecting to win but being away and going on the most recent match of both teams, it seems Offaly are in a better position many would think. Wouldn't actually be surprised if they were marginal favourites for the game either.

I wouldn't be hugely worried about their forwards, our defence is decent and we may have Shane Fives back to boost options. It's the forwards I'd be worried about as we seem to be only capable of putting together ~20 points or less on the scoreboard and Offaly have shown they can get goals.

It's hard to know what to think, I'd like to think there's a good performance in us and that the lads will want to make up for a poor showing v Clare.
Offaly also are a bit of an unknown quantity, they usually always have one big game in them a year. Last year they pushed Cork all the way in a qualifier match but just fell short at the end and some may think their big game this year was against KK. I think it may be hard for them to hit the same intensity and heights for us but at the same time they'll know this is a great chance for them to take us.

Looking forward to it though, it really is a sink or swim game. Lose and it'll be our worst season since probably '03 when we were knocked out by an average Wexford side. Win and it will give us a good shout of reaching the 1/4's under the radar. 50:50 game.

gowley

Cake Man wrote: »

Offaly away is going to be a serious test for us. If we were at home, I'd be expecting to win but being away and going on the most recent match of both teams, it seems Offaly are in a better position many would think. Wouldn't actually be surprised if they were marginal favourites for the game either.

I wouldn't be hugely worried about their forwards, our defence is decent and we may have Shane Fives back to boost options. It's the forwards I'd be worried about as we seem to be only capable of putting together ~20 points or less on the scoreboard and Offaly have shown they can get goals.

It's hard to know what to think, I'd like to think there's a good performance in us and that the lads will want to make up for a poor showing v Clare.
Offaly also are a bit of an unknown quantity, they usually always have one big game in them a year. Last year they pushed Cork all the way in a qualifier match but just fell short at the end and some may think their big game this year was against KK. I think it may be hard for them to hit the same intensity and heights for us but at the same time they'll know this is a great chance for them to take us.

Looking forward to it though, it really is a sink or swim game. Lose and it'll be our worst season since probably '03 when we were knocked out by an average Wexford side. Win and it will give us a good shout of reaching the 1/4's under the radar. 50:50 game.

in fairness they scored 4 goals against kilkenny. i would be a bit concerned about that.

Mountainlad

If anyone is wondering how serious the management are taking the game it's worth noting that the rescheduled fixtures of Passage v Dungarvan and Lismore v Ballyduff Upper that were due to be played on Friday night have been postponed again. Only two football games this weekend, both involving clubs that don't have any Waterford Senior Hurlers in their midst.

The Fourmilewater v De La Salle game does go ahead as planned tomorrow night however.

Management are obviously very wary of Offaly. I doubt those games would have been rescheduled if it was Westmeath or London we were facing in the first game.

Mr Tibbs

Not to sure about this but did Offaly ever beat us in championship hurling not that it make's a difference for Saturday week. I don't recall them ever beating us in the championship but then again we never met that much. We came out of the wilderness in 1998 with our first appearence in Croke Park since 1963. Hopefully those dark days will never return.

Giveitfong

As far as I know Waterford have only played Offaly twice in the championship, both times in the qualifiers. The first was in Carlow in 2005 (I think) when Waterford won comfortably and the second in Thurles in 2008 when Waterford were lucky enough to win. Ken McGrath played at full back that day and, if I remember correctly, Jamie Nagle made his debut at midfield and played well. In the other game in Thurles that day, 14-man Cork beat Joe Canning by a point.


The views expressed by some here that Waterford were very poor against Clare and that Clare were the fitter team need some reappraisal. Waterford dominated this game from the 10th to the 45th minute and really should have been out of sight before Clare staged their recovery, assisted in no small way by a couple of handy frees given by the referee and two goals that were fortuitous enough in that there was no build-up play, just that the ball fell nicely to two players who otherwise had little impact on the game. The referee had a major bearing on the game’s outcome, repeatedly failing to give Waterford obvious frees and then giving very dubious frees to Clare.


I think that Waterford’s late collapse was more psychological than anything to do with fitness. Clare got a new surge of energy when the game started going their way while a lot of the Waterford players seemed to throw in the towel. It was a pity to see this, as since Waterford re-emerged as a hurling power in 1998 they have been noted for their fighting spirit and have won countless key games in the closing minutes. Last Sunday week the game was still salvageable up to the last few minutes, but the fight simply wasn’t there.


Finally, one poster here says that Waterford were beaten by an “average” Wexford team in 2003. That Wexford team won the Leinster championship the following year – the last non-Kilkenny team to do so.

Mountainlad

Giveitfong wrote: »

Finally, one poster here says that Waterford were beaten by an “average” Wexford team in 2003. That Wexford team won the Leinster championship the following year – the last non-Kilkenny team to do so.

Agree wholheartedly with thtat. I believe 2003 waas the year they took Cork to a replay in the all ireland semi as well.

Fireball07

Giveitfong wrote: »

Finally, one poster here says that Waterford were beaten by an “average” Wexford team in 2003. That Wexford team won the Leinster championship the following year – the last non-Kilkenny team to do so.

I agree with almost everything you said, but Galway did win Leinster last year. :P

noiniho

Giveitfong wrote: »

The views expressed by some here that Waterford were very poor against Clare and that Clare were the fitter team need some reappraisal. Waterford dominated this game from the 10th to the 45th minute and really should have been out of sight before Clare staged their recovery, assisted in no small way by a couple of handy frees given by the referee and two goals that were fortuitous enough in that there was no build-up play, just that the ball fell nicely to two players who otherwise had little impact on the game. The referee had a major bearing on the game’s outcome, repeatedly failing to give Waterford obvious frees and then giving very dubious frees to Clare.


I think that Waterford’s late collapse was more psychological than anything to do with fitness. Clare got a new surge of energy when the game started going their way while a lot of the Waterford players seemed to throw in the towel. It was a pity to see this, as since Waterford re-emerged as a hurling power in 1998 they have been noted for their fighting spirit and have won countless key games in the closing minutes. Last Sunday week the game was still salvageable up to the last few minutes, but the fight simply wasn’t there.

Totally agree as I stated in my earlier post, a Pat Flanagan team doesnt wilt after 60 minutes due to lack of fitness, that slump was brought about by what was going on between the ears of some players.

As you say that was the real disapointment, and the worry is that coaches like Flanagan wont risk there reputations on us in the future if it is repeated, why would they? Its surprising because we finished strong in some of the league, like the Clare and Tipp games.

hardybuck

In relation to Flanagan, it might be the case that he was ahead of the game when he started work with Kerry in the 00's. It may be that most if not all counties have someone of similar quality working with them now.

deiseach

Giveitfong wrote: »

As far as I know Waterford have only played Offaly twice in the championship, both times in the qualifiers. The first was in Carlow in 2005 (I think) when Waterford won comfortably and the second in Thurles in 2008 when Waterford were lucky enough to win. Ken McGrath played at full back that day and, if I remember correctly, Jamie Nagle made his debut at midfield and played well. In the other game in Thurles that day, 14-man Cork beat Joe Canning by a point.

You can laugh at Galway that day (and you will) but Offaly were beaten by Eoin Kelly who scored 2-13 of our 2-18. I think we should bring him back *ducks for cover*

Baby4

This post has been deleted.

noiniho

hardybuck wrote: »

In relation to Flanagan, it might be the case that he was ahead of the game when he started work with Kerry in the 00's. It may be that most if not all counties have someone of similar quality working with them now.

I agree that most counties will have good physical trainers, and Waterford were always very well conditioned under Davy Fitz so you would expect the same from his Clare team, But Flanagan is coming from football background, in my experience footballers are actually fitter then Hurlers they need to carry the ball alot more, they take more contact in collisons and like a half back / half forward in football covers way more ground then someone playing in those lines in hurling as in hurling the ball obviously does alot more of the work and can travel almost the length of the field.

So to suggest that Flanagan, who was the physical trainer who helped Kerry to all Ireland Success in 2004, 2006 and 2009 (not exactly another generation ago), in what is, lets face it, a much more competitive competition than the All Ireland Hurling championship, is now after slipping behind the curve or essentially incapable of training a team to last 70 minutes of the first round of a munster hurling championship is being highly dismissive and unkind to his previous achievements and being way to generous to the players...

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Baby4 wrote: »

I completely agree. He is playing great hurling for his club at the moment. He should never have retired from Intercounty hurling in my opinion.

If he's not interested in hurling county then he's not worth pining after. He's the past now.

hardybuck

noiniho wrote: »

I agree that most counties will have good physical trainers, and Waterford were always very well conditioned under Davy Fitz so you would expect the same from his Clare team, But Flanagan is coming from football background, in my experience footballers are actually fitter then Hurlers they need to carry the ball alot more, they take more contact in collisons and like a half back / half forward in football covers way more ground then someone playing in those lines in hurling as in hurling the ball obviously does alot more of the work and can travel almost the length of the field.

So to suggest that Flanagan, who was the physical trainer who helped Kerry to all Ireland Success in 2004, 2006 and 2009 (not exactly another generation ago), in what is, lets face it, a much more competitive competition than the All Ireland Hurling championship, is now after slipping behind the curve or essentially incapable of training a team to last 70 minutes of the first round of a munster hurling championship is being highly dismissive and unkind to his previous achievements and being way to generous to the players...

If you look at my comment again, you'll see I didn't suggest anything other than the fact that other counties may have trainers of his quality. His presence mightn't be as huge a bonus as it might have been five years ago.

I've been trained myself by Flanagan, I know how good he is. He did huge work with Kerry to turn them around in '04 and 05 in particular. But that was Kerry, and they will always be in the mix to win All Irelands.