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Unions call to not pay mortgages
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weldoninhio wrote: »Holy god!!!! Who in this country owes you ANYTHING??? If you can't afford to live where you want, TOUGH!!!! What an attitude!! Who was forcing you to live outside of Dublin?? Who cares if your ancestors were the vikings who founded Dubh Linn, if you cannot afford to buy a house within your means here, either rent until you can afford it, or move away!! Its simple!! Ireland is a tiny country, you'll never be more than 4/5 hours away from your family or "connections". No-one was forcing you into the Arctic wastelands!!
This is the prevelant irish attitude thats ruining the country, i'm entitled to this, i'm entitled to that. Berties entitled to a driver and a huge pension, all of the bank chiefs are entitled to golden handshakes and massive pensions, scroungers who have been on the dole all of their life are entitled to all of their benefits. From the top down this country is all about what your entitled to rather than what you can do to help the country as a whole. Its pathetic!!!
That's simply not true, it sounds lovely and smart and smug, doesn't it?!? But it is not fact!
I personally know of several people who are living in Dublin who are provided with housing by their local authorities. They have a right or an entitlement to that, or at least it appears to me that they do.
My point is that there are social consequences to people being FORCED to traipse out to towns like Kells, Drogheda, Kinnegad, etc, IF they decided to act in line with their human instinct and wished to have a roof over their head that was their own.
It is something that is inherently human to want to work hard, earn a living, have a family and get on with your life. This smugness that I often see being thrown out here on the forum, it's rediculous, and it's often extended by a small community on the forum who I imagine were probably too miserable to buy a house regardless of what the economy was like.0 -
What do you propose they do when they're kicked out on their arses?
Just take Iceland as an example. They defaulted on their loans, the people gave their Government a slap and now their economy is coming back stronger than ever. They also promised to pay back their loans but not on the terms that the Scum IMF laid down. The IMF were told to go and take a hike and don't come back. The Icelanders should be very proud of themselves for refusing to bow to these elitist banker IMF idiots nor their Government. It's about time the Irish lived up to their name of being a fighting nation and not letting people walk on them but they let puppets controlled by the elitists tell them what they are going to do and of course the Irish give in. If people in Ireland do not realize what is going on behind their backs then I'm afraid there is absolutely no hope for them or Ireland as a country for the future and they deserve their Government and everything they throw at them. Only sad thing is that they will be answerable to their kids and grand kids in the future and i would love to be a fly on the wall when the questions are asked in the future because they will be the ones responsible for allowing these criminals get their way while laughing behind their backs. Just get it people, do your research, make the time and take the effort to educate yourselves as this will be an investment for your kids future. Something that people don't seem to know or realize is that Ireland IS one of the richest countries in the world!!!!! They have natural resources that NO other country has and the quantities of oil and gas are still not known for sure but we are talking about Trillions here. Recently i had a discussion with a Dutch politician who posed a lot of questions to me about my thoughts on the goings on in Ireland to which i posed the question back.....Why should the Irish be crucified for the lame corrupt actions of their so called leaders who allowed the bankers get away with this corruption not to mention the corruption they had a hand in themselves. His reaction was, The Irish people spent too much and now they have to pay. my return question was, and what happens to all of Ireland's resource's (oil, gas, fisheries, forests etc)...Now this was the answer to my amazement...." THAT BELONGS TO US!!! US being the EU... Now that's the mentality going around Europe so maybe it's best Ireland defaults, sends the IMF home with their tails between their hind animal legs and builds their economy with THEIR VERY OWN riches. Something as extreme as this may be the only hope for Ireland.0 -
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This isn't New York, it's Ireland, with a different set of judicial codes and we have a little thing here called Gombeenism that would make me very reluctant to rent off any Irish person who I didn't personally know and trust.
My point is that this smug attitude that is thrown at people who bought a house to live in, it's pathethic. I'd would have been more than happy to try to extend myself a bit if I could, and live closer to where I worked, to where I had connections, family and friends, than to be spending 2-4 hours a day driving, stuck in M50 or N4 standstill traffic, getting depressed and frustrated at my life.
Those that now say, "ah you extended yourself, all your fault, blah blah blah", cop on, if you took out a mortgage on the basis of having 2 incomes back in 2007 and you have one income now, or worst case scenario you have no incomes, that does not not mean that you extended yourself or were prolifigant with your finances back in 2007...0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »That's simply not true, it sounds lovely and smart and smug, doesn't it?!? But it is not fact!
I personally know of several people who are living in Dublin who are provided with housing by their local authorities. They have a right or an entitlement to that, or at least it appears to me that they do.
My point is that there are social consequences to people being FORCED to traipse out to towns like Kells, Drogheda, Kinnegad, etc, IF they decided to act in line with their human instinct and wished to have a roof over their head that was their own.
It is something that is inherently human to want to work hard, earn a living, have a family and get on with your life. This smugness that I often see being thrown out here on the forum, it's rediculous, and it's often extended by a small community on the forum who I imagine were probably too miserable to buy a house regardless of what the economy was like.
The piece i have put in bold shows exactly what i was i was talking about. Entitled, Entitled, Entitled!!! If they're entitled to that, why amn't I? I'm entitled to this because this other person is entitled to it!! Pathetic and pure Irish attitude, take what you can get because your entitled!!
You still never answered me as to who was FORCING you to move to Kells or Drogheda??0 -
HELLFIRECLUB - It is something that is inherently human to want to work hard, earn a living, have a family and get on with your life.
Agree.
But to say its a right to have a house in an area just because you have roots there is utterly ridiculous. Those roots were laid there in different times to now.0 -
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The problem is that this state, through poor governance, gave an equal if not a superior the right to a property speculator who was buying for personal enrichment, (which has hugely hurt society as we can all now see), to buy a property, when compared to the right of a family to buy the same property for reasons that would benefit society.
There can be no doubt that if we took a more mature approach as to why people bought houses in the last 10 years, and we put the right of people to buy housing for living purposes, ahead of the right of someone to buy for selfish reasons, we would not be in this financial state that we are now in. I wouldn't have been possible. And the excuse given back then for a lack of correction in this area in terms of policy was, "Christ no, we'll cause capital flight, we'll scare away the precious investors, we can't act like that, this is a mature economy"...
How mature do we look now, when we have to step in now as a taxpayer and as a state and take over the liabilities of the same investors that we were afraid we should offend if we put in place proper social policies with regard to housing in Ireland???0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »Those that now say, "ah you extended yourself, all your fault, blah blah blah", cop on, if you took out a mortgage on the basis of having 2 incomes back in 2007 and you have one income now, or worst case scenario you have no incomes, that does not not mean that you extended yourself or were prolifigant with your finances back in 2007...
Finding yourself in current difficult circumstances is an entirely different matter to yelling left and right about what you're "entitled to".
You do not have the "right" to live in an area you want, you do not have the "right" to buy a house if you couldn't afford it... it's as simple as that
As for not wanting to rent, that is once again your own choice, nobody else to look to there but yourself.0 -
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The government do a have a right to regulate the housing market. In my view, a responsibility, to try to ensure that ordinary workers are able to live in reasonable proximity to where the jobs and services are. I don't see how anyone at all benefits from masses of people having to commute for hours every day into work.
No one is entitled to buy something they can't afford, but they are entitled to expect the government to provide proper planning.0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »The problem is that this state, through poor governance, gave an equal if not a superior the right to a property speculator who was buying for personal enrichment, (which has hugely hurt society as we can all now see), to buy a property, when compared to the right of a family to buy the same property for reasons that would benefit society.
There can be no doubt that if we took a more mature approach as to why people bought houses in the last 10 years, and we put the right of people to buy housing for living purposes, ahead of the right of someone to buy for selfish reasons, we would not be in this financial state that we are now in. I wouldn't have been possible. And the excuse given back then for a lack of correction in this area in terms of policy was, "Christ no, we'll cause capital flight, we'll scare away the precious investors, we can't act like that, this is a mature economy"...
How mature do we look now, when we have to step in now as a taxpayer and as a state and take over the liabilities of the same investors that we were afraid we should offend if we put in place proper social policies with regard to housing in Ireland???
Can you possibly show us a link to an article/webpage/anything at all which shows a mature free market economy where they stop people from buying property due to their marital/family status, like you are suggesting??0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »This isn't New York, it's Ireland, with a different set of judicial codes and we have a little thing here called Gombeenism that would make me very reluctant to rent off any Irish person who I didn't personally know and trust.
My point is that this smug attitude that is thrown at people who bought a house to live in, it's pathethic. I'd would have been more than happy to try to extend myself a bit if I could, and live closer to where I worked, to where I had connections, family and friends, than to be spending 2-4 hours a day driving, stuck in M50 or N4 standstill traffic, getting depressed and frustrated at my life.
Those that now say, "ah you extended yourself, all your fault, blah blah blah", cop on, if you took out a mortgage on the basis of having 2 incomes back in 2007 and you have one income now, or worst case scenario you have no incomes, that does not not mean that you extended yourself or were prolifigant with your finances back in 2007...
that does not not mean that you extended yourself or were prolifigant with your finances back in 2007...
i think that if you considered buying a 3 bed shoebox at 500k '' good value'' or a nessary purchase in 2006/7 in ireland it does indeed mean you ''extended yourself or were prolifigant with your finances back in 2007...''0 -
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weldoninhio wrote: »The piece i have put in bold shows exactly what i was i was talking about. Entitled, Entitled, Entitled!!! If they're entitled to that, why amn't I? I'm entitled to this because this other person is entitled to it!! Pathetic and pure Irish attitude, take what you can get because your entitled!!
You still never answered me as to who was FORCING you to move to Kells or Drogheda??
I think you are missing my point and probably deliberately so.
You can live in this country, have a few kids and live in social housing all your life, in an area that you choose.
But before the downturn, you could be extremely hardworking and dilligent, but if you wanted to buy a house, you had to move down the country...
If you wanted to rent all of your life, of course you weren't "FORCED", to buy anywhere else.
My point AGAIN, is that it is inherently human to want to have security or tenure and the only way to be able to provide for that in a country as backward and defective as this, is to buy your own house.
If you want to live a life of rolling one year lease agreements, and live like the Littlest Hobo, then of course nobody is forcing you to do anything!
However if you are serious about what you are at and you want to have a bit of security for you and your family that you care about, you are going to want to buy a house and a place that you can call your own.
Some say this is being obsessed with property, I think it's the most human thing any person could do.0 -
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That would be New York, New York where rents are controlled and stabilized by the state?
People had a choice between renting a property that was massively overpriced or buying a property that was massively overpriced. Unsurprisingly they chose the latter.0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »I think you are missing my point and probably deliberately so.
You can live in this country, have a few kids and live in social housing all your life, in an area that you choose.
But before the downturn, you could be extremely hardworking and dilligent, but if you wanted to buy a house, you had to move down the country...
If you wanted to rent all of your life, of course you weren't "FORCED", to buy anywhere else.
My point AGAIN, is that it is inherently human to want to have security or tenure and the only way to be able to provide for that in a country as backward and defective as this, is to buy your own house.
If you want to live a life of rolling one year lease agreements, and live like the Littlest Hobo, then of course nobody is forcing you to do anything!
However if you are serious about what you are at and you want to have a bit of security for you and your family that you care about, you are going to want to buy a house and a place that you can call your own.
Some say this is being obsessed with property, I think it's the most human thing any person could do.
I honestly don't think you know what your point is!!! It is human nature to want security and accomodation. But if you can't afford the house you buy in Dublin, where you claim you are entitled to live because you have connections there, and the bank are chasing you for payment, possibly threatening forclosure, and to kick you out, how is that possibly security for you and your family?? Surely a nice house in Drogheda, 20 minutes from your connections, that you can afford the repayments on, where theres no pressure on you from he banks is more secure??
Are you living in the real world?? Your argument is ridiculous!!0 -
weldoninhio wrote: »Can you possibly show us a link to an article/webpage/anything at all which shows a mature free market economy where they stop people from buying property due to their marital/family status, like you are suggesting??
That's not what I said. Property investment in this jurisdiction was over incentivised by artifically low interest rates on investment properties (or often interest only mortgages), in addition to tax policy that was based around a whole range of tax breaks that allowed investors to write off up to 90% of their tax bill for the property against their mortgage.
This was banana-land economics that was flagged here a long time ago, I never said keep property investors out as a rule, the point I was trying to make was not to let them into a place where they gained such an advantage to invest over and above the same person with a mortgage for a property but who didn't have an interest only mortage because they happened to be out golfing with the bank manager or who also didn't have the ability to write off up to 80% of their tax bill against their investment.
This isn't "free market economic" as you call it, it is the opposite of that...0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »I know I'm not going to be too popular saying this but I couldn't give a monkeys toss about people who are up to their tits in debt having to pay back mortgages on houses worth a fraction of their original cost, People laughed at me when I didn't get a massive mortgage to buy the biggest house like everyone else at the time, They laughed while saying you'll never afford one if you don't buy now, All I listened to was: sur my house is now worth 20K more than I payed for it and I only have it 3 months blah blah blah...
Well now yr house is worth a fraction of what you payed for it, Your mortgage interest rates have gone through the roof and you expect the taxpayers to give you a free house or feel sorry for you..
No banks or financial institutions in this country (Ireland) put a gun to your head and said if you don't take this money we'll pull the trigger, You choose to take the easy money and now its the banks fault they want the money bank?? Well tough s**t, You made yr bed now sleep in it..
There are thousands of people out there who didn't take out massive mortgages, Thousands of people who are living within their means (Even in the good times) and thousands of people who are not up to their tits in debt, Is this just chance?? No its not, Thousands of people in this country may not have a big fancy overpriced house but they have something way more valuable, No debt or very little of it, So I hope you don't pay your mortgages and when yr kicked out and I pass you on the street hunkered down shaking a plastic cup I will gladly spare a few pennies for you but they'll be pennies I'll make sur I can afford to pay.
And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???
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So your thinking is I'm not going to rent and "enrich some property investing parasite" instead I will take out a mortgage for a grossly over-priced house which I will never be able to afford.
Good thinking.0 -
jackiebaron wrote: »You seem to think that I am excusing the buyers for their shortsightedness. I'm not. They were foolish. But the banks and the government are just as guilty and they don't get punished. In fact rich bondholders should have been burnt as well but no. You seem quite happy to have your taxes go to some rich bastard sitting on a yacht in Marbella who gambled and got his bonds covered yet scream blue murder if a homeowner decides to personally punish the banks by not paying.
To be honest, I think we are on the same page. I was just making the point that all parties, banks, government and borrowers are to blame for the situation. I would also like to make it known that I do not want to see someone who gambled on bonds walk away untouched. I agree with you 100% that they should get burned i.e. face the consequences of their actions. I invested in shares and still do. I have made losses on them and I fully accept that it is part of that game. You win some and you lose some.0 -
HellFireClub wrote: »I think you are missing my point and probably deliberately so.
You can live in this country, have a few kids and live in social housing all your life, in an area that you choose.
But before the downturn, you could be extremely hardworking and dilligent, but if you wanted to buy a house, you had to move down the country...
If you wanted to rent all of your life, of course you weren't "FORCED", to buy anywhere else.
My point AGAIN, is that it is inherently human Irish to want to have security or tenure and the only way to be able to provide for that in a country as backward and defective as this, is to buy your own house.
If you want to live a life of rolling one year lease agreements, and live like the Littlest Hobo, then of course nobody is forcing you to do anything!
However if you are serious about what you are at and you want to have a bit of security for you and your family that you care about, you are going to want to buy a house and a place that you can call your own.
Some say this is being obsessed with property, I think it's the most human thing any person could do.
Just corrected your post.
Nobody has an entitlement to live anywhere. Think about what you are saying. You are saying that people have an entitlement to live near family and friends but that is YOUR criteria. What if the vast majoirty of people out there believed that they had the entitlement to live in the best neighbourhood? Would that mean they are entitled to live in D4 and how would you fit them all. What if another group decided they had an entitlement to live with the best view? Well, how would you fit all those Dubliners who want to live in houses on the hill of Howth or the sea-side of Killiney Hill and who would decide who gets the best view. And who would build the motorway up the Connor Pass for all those who would want to live at the top.
All you have an entitlement to is to live somewhere where you can afford the rent or the mortgage and if you can't afford those, your entitlement is to be housed whereever the local authority decides you should be housed.0 -
If this was just a run of the mill property crash then fair enough people should pay their debts.
It isn't though-50% knocked off property values so far and no sign of slowing down,the setting in of long term structural unemployment,literally crippling long term uneconomic debts for people and countries and a genuine chance that the euro could collapse.
If I had a mortgage now I would be deferring payment and saving my money for what's potentially ahead rather than keeping my "credit rating" intact.0 -
weldoninhio wrote: »I honestly don't think you know what your point is!!! It is human nature to want security and accomodation. But if you can't afford the house you buy in Dublin, where you claim you are entitled to live because you have connections there, and the bank are chasing you for payment, possibly threatening forclosure, and to kick you out, how is that possibly security for you and your family?? Surely a nice house in Drogheda, 20 minutes from your connections, that you can afford the repayments on, where theres no pressure on you from he banks is more secure??
Are you living in the real world?? Your argument is ridiculous!!
So what I'm reading there, is that you accept that the kind of systemic and collective corruption that led to banking policies and public taxation policies, placing property investors in a situation whereby the state favoured them as buyers of property instead of people who wanted to buy to live in, as opposed to those who were buying to speculate, that it is wrong to accept that these policies have been the ruination of this state, and that by extension, everyone should just accept that due to corruption and greed, that if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin, due to all of the above, that you should just accept this and buy in Drogheda, an absolute destitute dump of a town which by the way is at least 1 hour away from Dublin...
This is the problem with the country, the acceptance of corruption and the toleration of quack economics that HAS BEEN PROVEN TO RUIN AN ECONOMY. Then if you oppose quack economics and aspire to something more durable that would serve society, you get accused of buying beyond what you could afford!
And by the way, I'm completely unaffected by this collapse in property prices, I bought one home a good few years ago that I lived in, and I sold one home that I lived in... So I'm not defending my own actions on here.
But as far as I'm concerned, any person who bought a property in good faith in the boom to live in, has absolutely nothing to answer for, you were failed by the state.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »So what I'm reading there, is that you accept that the kind of systemic and collective corruption that led to banking policies and public taxation policies, placing property investors in a situation whereby the state favoured them as buyers of property instead of people who wanted to buy to live in, as opposed to those who were buying to speculate, that it is wrong to accept that these policies have been the ruination of this state, and that by extension, everyone should just accept that due to corruption and greed, that if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin, due to all of the above, that you should just accept this and buy in Drogheda, an absolute destitute dump of a town which by the way is at least 1 hour away from Dublin...
What in god's name are you talking about?
He said if you can't afford to buy in dublin, then don't. End of.
It has nothing to do with corruption or whatever else you're ranting about0 -
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So your thinking is I'm not going to rent and "enrich some property investing parasite" instead I will take out a mortgage for a grossly over-priced house which I will never be able to afford.
Good thinking.
My point YET AGAIN, is that we should never have arrived at a place where the property was grossly overpriced!
This happened as a direct result of quack economics and failed/downright defective government policy, that put investors at a huge advantage over buyers who wanted to buy a house to live in.
Houses are for living in, I believe by people who want to make homes of them, not for some racoon who will be selling it for 50K more in 6 months time.
It is this mentality that has led to the collapse, not the person who was from Walkinstown and wanted to live in Lucan or Inchicore, as opposed to Drogehda or Kinnegad.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »So what I'm reading there, is that you accept that the kind of systemic and collective corruption that led to banking policies and public taxation policies, placing property investors in a situation whereby the state favoured them as buyers of property instead of people who wanted to buy to live in, as opposed to those who were buying to speculate, that it is wrong to accept that these policies have been the ruination of this state, and that by extension, everyone should just accept that due to corruption and greed, that if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin, due to all of the above, that you should just accept this and buy in Drogheda, an absolute destitute dump of a town which by the way is at least 1 hour away from Dublin...
This is the problem with the country, the acceptance of corruption and the toleration of quack economics that HAS BEEN PROVEN TO RUIN AN ECONOMY. Then if you oppose quack economics and aspire to something more durable that would serve society, you get accused of buying beyond what you could afford!
And by the way, I'm completely unaffected by this collapse in property prices, I bought one home a good few years ago that I lived in, and I sold one home that I lived in... So I'm not defending my own actions on here.
But as far as I'm concerned, any person who bought a property in good faith in the boom to live in, has absolutely nothing to answer for, you were failed by the state.
We elected the politicians that brought in those tax schemes and people crawled all over each other to buy into them. And they weren't just for investors. Mortgage interest relief was for all buyers and there were Section Twenty-this and Twenty-that for owner-occupiers and holiday home owners as well.
You don't buy property just in good faith, you actually think carefully about it.0 -
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HellFireClub wrote: »So what I'm reading there, is that you accept that the kind of systemic and collective corruption that led to banking policies and public taxation policies, placing property investors in a situation whereby the state favoured them as buyers of property instead of people who wanted to buy to live in, as opposed to those who were buying to speculate, that it is wrong to accept that these policies have been the ruination of this state, and that by extension, everyone should just accept that due to corruption and greed, that if you cannot afford to buy in Dublin, due to all of the above, that you should just accept this and buy in Drogheda, an absolute destitute dump of a town which by the way is at least 1 hour away from Dublin...
This is the problem with the country, the acceptance of corruption and the toleration of quack economics that HAS BEEN PROVEN TO RUIN AN ECONOMY. Then if you oppose quack economics and aspire to something more durable that would serve society, you get accused of buying beyond what you could afford!
And by the way, I'm completely unaffected by this collapse in property prices, I bought one home a good few years ago that I lived in, and I sold one home that I lived in... So I'm not defending my own actions on here.
But as far as I'm concerned, any person who bought a property in good faith in the boom to live in, has absolutely nothing to answer for, you were failed by the state.
I've no idea where your readig that from. I'll make it simple.
You are saying it is an Irish trait to want to own your own home and be secure in it. I agree with this.
You are saying that you should be entitled to buy the above secure home wherever your roots are. This is Nonsense
You are saying that anyone who payed over the odds for their home in the place they wanted to should not have to pay the mortgage on their home if their home has lost value. More Nonsense
I'm saying that the above citizen would be more secure buying a house they could afford in a satelite town, with no threat of the bank taking the house off them. Can you not see the sense in this??
I live in Rush, its about halfway between Dublin and Drogheda, I can get to Drogheda comfortably in about 20 mins and Dublin city centre in about 15. I've been to both, Drogheda is by no means destitute. What will be destitute is the above citizen who overstretched himself with a mortgage he couldn't afford, and is eventually kicked out on the street by the banks and finds his family on the council waiting list, pleading for a house while the courts chase him for payment of his debts.0 -
Just take Iceland as an example. They defaulted on their loans, the people gave their Government a slap and now their economy is coming back stronger than ever. They also promised to pay back their loans but not on the terms that the Scum IMF laid down. The IMF were told to go and take a hike and don't come back. The Icelanders should be very proud of themselves for refusing to bow to these elitist banker IMF idiots nor their Government. It's about time the Irish lived up to their name of being a fighting nation and not letting people walk on them but they let puppets controlled by the elitists tell them what they are going to do and of course the Irish give in. If people in Ireland do not realize what is going on behind their backs then I'm afraid there is absolutely no hope for them or Ireland as a country for the future and they deserve their Government and everything they throw at them. Only sad thing is that they will be answerable to their kids and grand kids in the future and i would love to be a fly on the wall when the questions are asked in the future because they will be the ones responsible for allowing these criminals get their way while laughing behind their backs. Just get it people, do your research, make the time and take the effort to educate yourselves as this will be an investment for your kids future. Something that people don't seem to know or realize is that Ireland IS one of the richest countries in the world!!!!! They have natural resources that NO other country has and the quantities of oil and gas are still not known for sure but we are talking about Trillions here. Recently i had a discussion with a Dutch politician who posed a lot of questions to me about my thoughts on the goings on in Ireland to which i posed the question back.....Why should the Irish be crucified for the lame corrupt actions of their so called leaders who allowed the bankers get away with this corruption not to mention the corruption they had a hand in themselves. His reaction was, The Irish people spent too much and now they have to pay. my return question was, and what happens to all of Ireland's resource's (oil, gas, fisheries, forests etc)...Now this was the answer to my amazement...." THAT BELONGS TO US!!! US being the EU... Now that's the mentality going around Europe so maybe it's best Ireland defaults, sends the IMF home with their tails between their hind animal legs and builds their economy with THEIR VERY OWN riches. Something as extreme as this may be the only hope for Ireland.
not the "we have trillions of oil" argument again. You know, I think that we should gather up all those who believe there is trillions of oil out there off the west coast, put them on a yacht in November and send them off out past the Aran Islands to look for that oil.
As for the lame corrupt actions of our leaders, this is a democracy and we elected them so we are responsible for them. If we were coming out of a dictatorship or communism and we were asking forgiveness for our debts because they were incurred by non-democratic means, I would have some sympathy but look at what the East Europeans did. They just got up off their asses and tried to rebuild their country.
And the Dutch politician is absolutely correct. As a nation, we spent too much and now we have to pay. Both our public and private sector debt are much too high.0 -
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