Unions call to not pay mortgages

Godge

Deleted User wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, people can rent as rents will come down and those who havent bought yet will benefit from lower house prices. If NAMA properties were released then rent supplement could be abolished such is the number of vacant properties in the country - 26,000 apartments in Dublin alone!!

The economy will benefit as a whole as people wont be spending as much on rents and mortgages and will spend in the economy.

When there are 300,000 empty properties in the country there is no need for rent supplement and no need for council housing

Absolutely correct. The only downside is that NAMA won't make money and may make a loss. However, the boost to the economy should be more than enough in that case to cover any loss.

Low property prices and low rents are two of the things most needed to kickstart the economy.

jackiebaron

dvpower wrote: »

There's €5tn in the unnamed well?:eek:

Nah...various fields Corrib, Dunguin, Allen etc. I dunno though. I'm no oil and gas expert.

sollar

The system is a mess . You have Paddy the property developer owing 10's of millions at one end of the street still living in his plush pad while paddy the ex-plumber owes €300,000 and is being fed to the wolves and about to lose his house.

With a set up that unfair i don't blame struggling mortgage holders for looking for their share of the forgiveness.

Don't forget we have sections of society who live off the state from the cradle to the grave.

baaaa

blarney_boy wrote: »

This constant pleading that "the banks make me do it" is really tiresome

I'm not sure anybody has made such a plea,is this a voice that you are hearing in your head ,is it all the time?

sollar

sollar wrote: »

The system is a mess . You have Paddy the property developer owing 10's of millions at one end of the street still living in his plush pad while paddy the ex-plumber owes €300,000 and is being fed to the wolves and about to lose his house.

With a set up that unfair i don't blame struggling mortgage holders for looking for their share of the forgiveness.

Don't forget we have sections of society who live off the state from the cradle to the grave.

What about those who are currently renting? What can be done to help them?
Who pays for all these bailouts?

dee112

will the unions cough up the extra interest when the mortgage has to be finally paid and will they give you a house rent free when theres no place to go?

jackiebaron

COYW wrote: »

You are making it sound like the banks were some sort of estate agent and that the borrower is some sort of victim here. The banks didn't kidnap people passing by their doors and force them to take out loans/mortgages at gunpoint. On approaching a bank for a mortgage the staff member didn't say, "Oh you don't want to buy that average 3 bed in Mayo, take a look at the fabulous house in D8". You MUST take the mortgage for the D8 house. Think about how impressed all your family and friends will be.

In the boom years credit was easy, so we all had a choice,

- starting playing the property game and take on the debt.

- stay away and be looked upon as a smuck.

Some/most of those who decided to play the game lost, now they have to deal with the consequences and re-pay what they owe.

Excuse me but house prices rose to idiotic levels in Ireland because there was an over-exagerrated demand for them i.e. artificially high numbers of people wanting to buy property because the banks were (wrongly) willing to lend. They (the banks) created this supply/demand disparity. They also lent to developers who would borrow millions, buy a few acres of swampland in the middle of nowhere for 20Million and throw up a few shoeboxes on it thus leading to the resulting oversupply and ghost estates.

You seem to think that I am excusing the buyers for their shortsightedness. I'm not. They were foolish. But the banks and the government are just as guilty and they don't get punished. In fact rich bondholders should have been burnt as well but no. You seem quite happy to have your taxes go to some rich bastard sitting on a yacht in Marbella who gambled and got his bonds covered yet scream blue murder if a homeowner decides to personally punish the banks by not paying.

weldoninhio

HellFireClub wrote: »

It's funny how in Ireland, those that made the most out of enforcing the the primary rule of capitialism during the boom, (which is that success is rewarded and failure is punished), are themselves the only entities now that are exempt from the same key rule of capitalism, by virtue of the publicising of private debt...

I don't know why people fail to see something vicious and rotten in all of this. As taxpayers, we now own the banks, so why are we tolerating a situation whereby people working within these banks at branch level who are killing small businesses, can hunker themselves down for the long haul and remain in place???

Clearly protesting is not sorting out our banks, being angry is not going to sort out the banks, rioting won't do it, but a mortgage strike, well why not says I?!?!?

And as for the smug bleeding hearts on here who say it will just add to our debt, at this stage, who gives a f*ck. We are on a road to failure anyway, so anyone with half a brain would see the logic of bringing that day much closer and having our "Black Monday", our "Black Wednesday" or whatever and then getting on with it under a proper banking structure.

We are 3 years into this now and every year and every month has been worst than the previous. Trundling along with our problems and kicking the can up the road, clearly has done nothing except worsen our problems.

Bring it on I think...

Are you working at the moment?? If you are then i'll tell you why not, because when you refuse to pay back your debt to the bank they have an excuse to cut off or reduce lending to sole traders/SMEs/big businesses. How smug will you be when you go into work and are told that you are surplus to requirements because the bank has cut off the credit supply and your company cannot afford to keep you on???

Are you out of work at the moment?? If you are then i'll tell you why not, because when you refuse to pay back your debt to the bank they have to go to the government to get more money, the previous regime has made it so that the government pretty much has to oblige to counter the threat of a run on the banks. When it comes to budget time, it will be your social welfare/child benefit and rent allowance that is reduced. Rent might be a lot lower, but it will be a bigger portion of the pittance you receive from the government due to these cuts.

Its pretty straightforward, actions have consequences. You chose to pay over the odds for your house, the consequence of this is that you are obliged to repay your end of the deal.

andrew

jackiebaron wrote: »

scream blue murder if a homeowner decides to personally punish the banks by not paying.

Since the state owns the banks, how does not paying one's mortgage punch anyone but the state and the taxpayer?

thisNthat

I know I'm not going to be too popular saying this but I couldn't give a monkeys toss about people who are up to their tits in debt having to pay back mortgages on houses worth a fraction of their original cost, People laughed at me when I didn't get a massive mortgage to buy the biggest house like everyone else at the time, They laughed while saying you'll never afford one if you don't buy now, All I listened to was: sur my house is now worth 20K more than I payed for it and I only have it 3 months blah blah blah...
Well now yr house is worth a fraction of what you payed for it, Your mortgage interest rates have gone through the roof and you expect the taxpayers to give you a free house or feel sorry for you..
No banks or financial institutions in this country (Ireland) put a gun to your head and said if you don't take this money we'll pull the trigger, You choose to take the easy money and now its the banks fault they want the money bank?? Well tough s**t, You made yr bed now sleep in it..
There are thousands of people out there who didn't take out massive mortgages, Thousands of people who are living within their means (Even in the good times) and thousands of people who are not up to their tits in debt, Is this just chance?? No its not, Thousands of people in this country may not have a big fancy overpriced house but they have something way more valuable, No debt or very little of it, So I hope you don't pay your mortgages and when yr kicked out and I pass you on the street hunkered down shaking a plastic cup I will gladly spare a few pennies for you but they'll be pennies I'll make sur I can afford to pay.

Scofflaw

jackiebaron wrote: »

There's €5tn in the unnamed well?

Nah...various fields Corrib, Dunguin, Allen etc. I dunno though. I'm no oil and gas expert.

I trained as a geologist and worked in the oil industry, where most of my classmates still are. The proven reserves in the Irish offshore - that is, what's known to be there - are tiny in oil industry terms. Newspapers are free to speculate because the Irish offshore is not well-tested enough to prove definitively that there aren't large reserves, which means they can pretty much make up any figure they like.

Small exploration companies who can't afford to drill, and whose business model consists of selling on their exploration areas to bigger companies - they also tend to talk up the "prospects" in their areas.

In terms of what's known to be there, though - what's actually been found down a well and had a proper reservoir evaluation done on it - is maybe three times what was in Kinsale. And in world terms, that's not nothing, but it's next to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dvpower

jackiebaron wrote: »

Nah...various fields Corrib, Dunguin, Allen etc. I dunno though. I'm no oil and gas expert.

That's for sure - your €5tn figure is bizarre.

HellFireClub

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

But don't forget - it'll add to your own personal debt, as well as any national problems -- both in the form of a missed payment meaning more interest being applicable to your loan, any applicable penalties for failure to pay (without prior notification) + a black mark on your credit report preventing you from getting a credit-card, car loan, etc.

Now if you're already unable to pay your mortgage, these are smaller issues in comparison to the big picture, but if you can pay but choose not to because of this "strike", all you're going to harm in the long run is yourself.

Hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland now have a credit rating problem where they would not have previously had any such issue, if they were living in ordinary times. I include myself in that lump of people who through the scourge of unemployment, ended up missing payments that I would otherwise not have missed...

You are right though, Irish people will ALWAYS act in a way that is aligned with their personal self interests and not with the wider interests of what may be the right thing to do for EVERYONE, as opposed to what is the right thing to do for himself.

Even where this means a lack of economic growth, a failed banking system that still isn't working, loss of sovereign monetary control, a possible sovereign default event in the future, no matter what might happen, the sun might threaten not to rise in the morning, but if Paddy has his end cleverly boxed off, then f*ck everyone else, that's the way I see it...

And of course then when the sh*t finally comes knocking on Paddy's door, he'll ring Liveline or turn up on the Frontline, expressing his outrage at the lack of people standing up to his offence...

the groutch

ok OP, you stop paying your mortgage and we'll verbally support you all the way, til you're living on the streets

Scofflaw

Just a gentle reminder that the swearing filter is there for a reason - because you should be able to make your point without having to say "f*ck, f*ck, scumbags, f*ck." HFC, I'm talking to you in particular.

moderately,
Scofflaw

HellFireClub

thisNthat wrote: »

I know I'm not going to be too popular saying this but I couldn't give a monkeys toss about people who are up to their tits in debt having to pay back mortgages on houses worth a fraction of their original cost, People laughed at me when I didn't get a massive mortgage to buy the biggest house like everyone else at the time, They laughed while saying you'll never afford one if you don't buy now, All I listened to was: sur my house is now worth 20K more than I payed for it and I only have it 3 months blah blah blah...
Well now yr house is worth a fraction of what you payed for it, Your mortgage interest rates have gone through the roof and you expect the taxpayers to give you a free house or feel sorry for you..
No banks or financial institutions in this country (Ireland) put a gun to your head and said if you don't take this money we'll pull the trigger, You choose to take the easy money and now its the banks fault they want the money bank?? Well tough s**t, You made yr bed now sleep in it..
There are thousands of people out there who didn't take out massive mortgages, Thousands of people who are living within their means (Even in the good times) and thousands of people who are not up to their tits in debt, Is this just chance?? No its not, Thousands of people in this country may not have a big fancy overpriced house but they have something way more valuable, No debt or very little of it, So I hope you don't pay your mortgages and when yr kicked out and I pass you on the street hunkered down shaking a plastic cup I will gladly spare a few pennies for you but they'll be pennies I'll make sur I can afford to pay.

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???

The problem with the property collapse was not people who wanted to buy to occupy. It was those investors that you imply that we should have all been renting off, it was the presence of those parasites in the market and the toleration of them being allowed to buy on the same terms as someone who wanted to buy to live in, it was THAT policy that caused a property bubble, not decent working people who asked for nothing more extravagant than to be allowed to live somewhere vaguely or remotely close to the community that they were brought into.

sarumite

sollar wrote: »

The system is a mess . You have Paddy the property developer owing 10's of millions at one end of the street still living in his plush pad while paddy the ex-plumber owes €300,000 and is being fed to the wolves and about to lose his house.

I completelt agree that the system is unfair.

With a set up that unfair i don't blame struggling mortgage holders for looking for their share of the forgiveness.

Using tax payers money to offer debt forgiveness to property owners makes the system even more unfair, not less. I don't blame them for asking for debt forgiveness, though its certainly not the right approach to the problem in terms of fairness.

Don't forget we have sections of society who live off the state from the cradle to the grave.

I haven't forgotten it, just not really sure why you mentioned it.

HellFireClub

I need to get back on topic here, so I'll point out that the irony isn't lost on me one bit that Jack O' Connor doesn't have a mortage on his home, so I'm not too sure how he expects to lead people on this particular call when he is clearly insulated from any ill consequence of not paying a mortgage...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/geraghtys-des-res-and-the-house-jack-built-1937151.html

scotty_irish

to all the people complaining and saying it's not their fault - i bought a new laptop recently (about a grand), spent several weeks researching the many models available, finding the best for my money. if i was going to sign away a significant portion of my wages for the next 35 years, i would sure as hell do the research. months and months of it to be as certain as possible that i had full knowledge of what i was signing up for and that the quality of the building work was to a very high standard. i wouldn't accept shoddy workmanship on my laptop, i'm most definitely not going to accept shoddy workmanship on something costing many many multiples of it. if i was reading a review of a laptop, i would look to see who is reviewing it and if it's in their interests for me to buy it - just because some property pundit or "ecomonist" says it's a good deal doesn't make it so.

the groutch

Scofflaw wrote: »

I trained as a geologist and worked in the oil industry, where most of my classmates still are. The proven reserves in the Irish offshore - that is, what's known to be there - are tiny in oil industry terms. Newspapers are free to speculate because the Irish offshore is not well-tested enough to prove definitively that there aren't large reserves, which means they can pretty much make up any figure they like.

Small exploration companies who can't afford to drill, and whose business model consists of selling on their exploration areas to bigger companies - they also tend to talk up the "prospects" in their areas.

In terms of what's known to be there, though - what's actually been found down a well and had a proper reservoir evaluation done on it - is maybe three times what was in Kinsale. And in world terms, that's not nothing, but it's next to it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

and even if there was any significant oil finds, the government would be giving it to the big oil companies pretty much for free

KindOfIrish

baaaa wrote: »

Yes,but you will be dishonoured for ever.

:D:D:D Tell this to developers who have debt of 10s of millions and who still living high life an driving Ferrari!

Godge

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???

The problem with the property collapse was not people who wanted to buy to occupy. It was those investors that you imply that we should have all been renting off, it was the presence of those parasites in the market and the toleration of them being allowed to buy on the same terms as someone who wanted to buy to live in, it was THAT policy that caused a property bubble, not decent working people who asked for nothing more extravagant than to be allowed to live somewhere vaguely or remotely close to the community that they were brought into.

No-one begrudges those who want to buy a house in the county they were born in, near to friends, family etc. BUT I am originally from South Dublin and moved away because the price of property was insane and I wasn't going to burden myself with a huge unsustainable 35-year mortgage.

Economics and societies don't work if you punish those who act in a sensible way such as those who took my option and now have to pay for the banks and also reward those who either through stupidity, ignorance, or naivety took the bad option. People like me, paying our sensible mortgage, living a distance from family and old firends (like most I can make new ones) shouldn't have to pay up for those who took bad decisions.

By the way, if you were so knowledgeable about the property parasites, why didn't you rent. You would have paid rent for a few years and then when the market collapsed have been in a position to offer to buy the nice house in Dublin off the parasite who would have lost lots of money.

Nantastic

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family.

Nobody was forcing you you to live outside Dublin!

Nobody begrudges you that either!

But you don't land yourself with potentially unmanageable debt to keep up with the Jonses!

thisNthat

baaaa wrote: »

Yes,but you will be dishonoured for ever.

And be made sit in the bold corner - That'll learn us

Frank Black

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???

QUOTE]

Your comments above illustrate a large part of the reason we’re in the mess we’re in. It reads as if you felt you had a ‘right’ to live in a house in Dublin near your friends and family regardless of the cost.
You didn’t – nobody does.
I do genuinely feel for people who took out large mortgages for places that are only worth a small percentage of that now – 2 good friends of mine are in that exact position, but the prices they paid for those places were pure madness
I think what people have a problem with is a blank cheque being issued to everyone who took out a mortgage for stupid money – that’s not smugness btw.
Personally, I’d favour some sore of debt for equity deal whereby the banks would reduce the mortgage debt for some sort of equity in the property which could be discharged at a later time when things (hopefully) improve.

Fighting Irish

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???

The problem with the property collapse was not people who wanted to buy to occupy. It was those investors that you imply that we should have all been renting off, it was the presence of those parasites in the market and the toleration of them being allowed to buy on the same terms as someone who wanted to buy to live in, it was THAT policy that caused a property bubble, not decent working people who asked for nothing more extravagant than to be allowed to live somewhere vaguely or remotely close to the community that they were brought into.

lol no

weldoninhio

HellFireClub wrote: »

Do you begrudge someone who wanted to buy a modest family home in the county that they were born in, in a county where they have relations and connections and friends???

This smugness really does my head in, why should I as a Dublin person, be the first person in my family in ten generations, to be forced to live out in some town 100 miles from those that I am close to, where I have connections to, where I have family???

And as for renting, why should my need for decent housing force me, (because this is the obvious end to your argument above), to pay rent and further enrich some property investing parasite, (because if you were buying you were mad according to yourself)???

The problem with the property collapse was not people who wanted to buy to occupy. It was those investors that you imply that we should have all been renting off, it was the presence of those parasites in the market and the toleration of them being allowed to buy on the same terms as someone who wanted to buy to live in, it was THAT policy that caused a property bubble, not decent working people who asked for nothing more extravagant than to be allowed to live somewhere vaguely or remotely close to the community that they were brought into.

Holy god!!!! Who in this country owes you ANYTHING??? If you can't afford to live where you want, TOUGH!!!! What an attitude!! Who was forcing you to live outside of Dublin?? Who cares if your ancestors were the vikings who founded Dubh Linn, if you cannot afford to buy a house within your means here, either rent until you can afford it, or move away!! Its simple!! Ireland is a tiny country, you'll never be more than 4/5 hours away from your family or "connections". No-one was forcing you into the Arctic wastelands!!

This is the prevelant irish attitude thats ruining the country, i'm entitled to this, i'm entitled to that. Berties entitled to a driver and a huge pension, all of the bank chiefs are entitled to golden handshakes and massive pensions, scroungers who have been on the dole all of their life are entitled to all of their benefits. From the top down this country is all about what your entitled to rather than what you can do to help the country as a whole. Its pathetic!!!

HellFireClub

black francis wrote: »

Your comments above illustrate a large part of the reason we’re in the mess we’re in. It reads as if you felt you had a ‘right’ to live in a house in Dublin near your friends and family regardless of the cost.[/FONT]
You didn’t – nobody does.
I do genuinely feel for people who took out large mortgages for places that are only worth a small percentage of that now – 2 good friends of mine are in that exact position, but the prices they paid for those places were pure madness
I think what people have a problem with is a blank cheque being issued to everyone who took out a mortgage for stupid money – that’s not smugness btw.
Personally, I’d favour some sore of debt for equity deal whereby the banks would reduce the mortgage debt for some sort of equity in the property which could be discharged at a later time when things (hopefully) improve.

In a normal society where we are not all trying to acquire property and climb all over each others backs, it is normal for people to want to enjoy some sort of security of tenure. I aspire to live in a society where hard work is rewarded and if I wish to work hard to be able to live in a modest house with my family, then yes, I do believe this is my right.

As things stand, I can contribute absolutely nothing to society, have children, and as a right, I can go to my local authority and demand to be housed.

But if I am prepared to work hard, I have a right to live in Kinnegad or Drogheda, is that what you are trying to tell me???

And then even though I am working hard to live in a modest house in an area where I have family and friends, the right of a property speculator to stand beside me and outbid me every time, is up there with my right to work hard, earn a living and provide a modest house for my family and I, in an area that I have family and friends in, is that the way you see it???

Frank Black

HellFireClub wrote: »

is that the way you see it???

Ehh, no.

Not really sure I understood half of what you were going on about there tbh.

Permabear

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