Unions call to not pay mortgages

dvpower

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You have to love the Irish mentality on this. Bail out Irish banks - no one cares. Bail out an individual property owner who is being crushed under the weight of rising interest rates and negative equity - you draw out the rabble, foaming at the mouth that anyone could possibly catch a break in their lives.

Are you new to the country?

southsiderosie

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You have to love the Irish mentality on this. Bail out Irish banks - no one cares. Bail out an individual property owner who is being crushed under the weight of rising interest rates and negative equity - you draw out the rabble, foaming at the mouth that anyone could possibly catch a break in their lives.

But what do you mean by 'bail out'? I don't think that the government should be paying people's mortgages, but I do think that people should be able to recover from bad financial decisions, whether it is an overpriced house or a failed small business.

The best thing that Ireland could do for both homeowners and potential entrepreneurs is reform the bankruptcy/debtor laws so that people can wipe the slate clean after five to seven years.

Raskolnikov

dvpower wrote: »

Are you new to the country?

In the recent elections, the people of Ireland voted overwhelming in favour of parties who wished to maintain the status quo regarding things like bank guarantees, the IMF deal, NAMA, etc.

ei.sdraob

7 pages and no one yet stood back for a minute and decided to look at the big picture? here is what I see

* Most of the banks are now part of the state
* When you pay your mortgage you are paying the bank who in turn will have to repay the state for the "support"
* Therefore your mortgage is now a form of taxation, another income for the state and its newly acquired toys

So if you are in real difficulty with mortgage due to loss of job, you should consider alternatives such as getting onto council housing

Just thinking out loud here ...

Whats more interesting is that 3 years in there are still no attempts to reform the bankruptcy laws here and make them more modern. Oh well, the moral of story is not to get into (much) debt it seems.

Giblet

Giblet wrote: »

What do you propose they do when they're kicked out on their arses?

rent!!

jackiebaron

d'Oracle wrote: »

No.
The government want you to pay taxes to support the country, for the rest of your life, because that is how the country has always worked.

Why is paying tax suddenly a problem for people?

The banks have no say. Most of them belong to the government so they can still function and we can still have a day to day economy.

Unless of course you keep you money under your bed and barter for things.

WRONG!

I bought a house in Holland 10 years ago. Rabobank, and ABN-AMRO and Fortis Bank and ING didn't gamble with the public's money (those boring Dutch bastards). They didn't give out money to barmaids to buy mansions and they didn't loosen lending standards. As a result there is no housing crisis in Holland. Prices dropped or slowed their rise a lttle but nothing to get in a pickle about. In a nutshell, Dutch banks stuck to their obligations and maintained their rigid ethics. They didn't fcuk around on ponzi schemes and then pass their losses on to the taxpayer. They didn't inflate an artificial property bubble for the quick buck and then split the scene when their bubble burst. They showed responsibility and were the guardians of the Dutch economy that they are being paid for. As a result there is no recession in Holland....just a minor slowdown. There are no people who were advised by a banker to buy a house that he could never hope to afford and is now staring at the ceiling every night worrying about money.

You say two wrongs don't make a right and I agree. But Irish banks didn't make a mistake. They committed a crime. And were let off the hook. If the government is going to allow that then why the hell should I respect either contracts OR the law.

Dyr

nino1 wrote: »

There were plenty of warnings out there that this would happen but you were obviously one of those who chose to ignore those warnings.

So that would be him, the government, the media, the banks, the accountants, the financial regulator and pretty much every one else who was coining it on the back of a property boom that ignored these warnings . Yet it's joe schmoes fault that he listened to the experts.

raymon

Too many freeloaders , not paying their way.

If the op walks away from his mortgage , I end up paying.

Because
1) my taxes go up ( I work) and the banks are owned by the taxpayer
2) my mortgage goes up

So , a message to scroungers and spongers : pay your way

If you are having difficulty , go talk to your bank.

sarumite

jackiebaron wrote: »

I'm not suggesting you pay the mortgages of those who can't afford it anymore. Not in the slightest. Why are you even contemplating that? If people refuse to pay their mortgages then it's the banks' problem...not yours. Let the banks suffer. What are they going to do? Start breaking peoples' legs?

And don't come back to me with the spineless "Oh, no wonder the country is fcuked" crap. Where's your sense of independence? Where are your balls?
When the French government try to fcuk with students' fees or pensioners' taxes, they trash the country or blockade ports or take bosses hostage and dowse them in petrol and threaten to torch them and the government relents. That's called DEMOCRACY, i.e. the government works FOR, and FEARS, the people.....not the other way round. Yet in Ireland..the government and their buddies in the banks just rip off Paddy and Mary (and have a good laugh about it) and when anyone suggests that Paddy and Mary fight back you sneer at them.

Keep fumbling in the greasy till and adding prayer to shivering prayer, buddy.

Though the French are still paying their mortgages. What are the consequence of letting the "banks suffer"? Would the bank suffer in isolation. So many SME's rely on banking credit to remain viable for example, would that be cut off. If a bank goes under and takes our savings with them, the taxpayer would be left to cover their savings.

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

Anyone who took out a mortgage should pay it back. I call that taking responsibility for one's actions and being an adult. Ireland got into this mess by being reckless with other peoples' money, I don't think we'll get out of it by more of the same.

If the consequences of a 110% mortgages for John and Mary means that they will be in debt until they are in their 70s well then I hope their children (and grandchildren) look to them as an example and never, ever allow themselves for fall into debt.

i think thats a bit harsh and prefer the US way of approaching this situation:

easy bankruptcy so the people can start again
firesales benefit everybody with cheaper rents & property prices
No propping up property prices with agencies like NAMA using state funds as this needlessly raises the cost of living costing jobs

if you cant pay and need your debts written down or off then you lose the house and it goes to firesale - fair is fair

dvpower

Raskolnikov wrote: »

In the recent elections, the people of Ireland voted overwhelming in favour of parties who wished to maintain the status quo regarding things like bank guarantees, the IMF deal, NAMA, etc.

... and you interpret this as no one cares about the bailout?

Have you considered that people understand that the choices we have are limited and that continuing with the status quo is the best option for now?

naoise80

baaaa wrote: »

Yes,responsibility is to keep paying uneconomic debts while your means is being slowly eroded by your debtors.

What's an uneconomic debt?

Debtors are poeple who owe you money.

Padraig Mor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Whats more interesting is that 3 years in there are still no attempts to reform the bankruptcy laws here and make them more modern. Oh well, the moral of story is not to get into (much) debt it seems.

Not so! Bankruptcy reform is in the works (5 yrs vs 12 yrs) - link.

individual property owner who is being crushed under the weight of ......negative equity

How exactly does negative equity crush someone??!!

Red Alert

I don't have a mortgage. I also have no responsibility for the "intelligent folk" who borrowed ridiculous sums to buy vastly overpriced houses/apartments, believing that the price was going to go up and up. Any concession to existing mortgage holders is really unfair to those of us who had the sense not to start something we couldn't handle.

ei.sdraob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Whats more interesting is that 3 years in there are still no attempts to reform the bankruptcy laws here and make them more modern. Oh well, the moral of story is not to get into (much) debt it seems.

hey have you seen this
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0625/1224299585102.html

PEOPLE WILL be released from bankruptcy after five years rather than the current 12 years once certain conditions are met, under new legislation published by Minister for Justice Alan Shatter.


These are early reforms to the law on bankruptcy, in line with a commitment in the programme for government, according to Mr Shatter. More extensive reforms will follow in a Personal Insolvency Bill, expected in early 2012 and being drawn up in the context of a commitment under the EU-IMF funding deal.

For the court to consider an application for release or discharge from bankruptcy after five years, the bankrupt will have to have discharged the expenses, fees and costs of the bankruptcy and the preferential payments.

The court will also have to be satisfied that the estate of the bankrupt has been fully realised and all property acquired after the bankruptcy has been disclosed.

raymon

raymon wrote: »

Too many freeloaders , not paying their way.

If the op walks away from his mortgage , I end up paying.

Because
1) my taxes go up ( I work) and the banks are owned by the taxpayer
2) my mortgage goes up

you do realise that this is Saint Lenihan & Cowens fault for tying the banks to our hips - when people took out mortgages it was a private deal with a business entity called a bank and had nothing to do with you

Hogzy

Its such a shame idiots are allowed take out mortgages.

Do people not understand that buying a house (if you intend to sell it in the future) is an investment. And investments can fall in value as well as gain in value.

Hogzy

Hogzy wrote: »

Its such a shame idiots are allowed take out mortgages.

You know i have no problem with idiots taking out billions once Im not made pay for it - Fianna Fail and the Greens screwed us and the current government isnt changing the situation

jackiebaron

COYW wrote: »

Fixed that for you. You were missing an important part of the equation there.

The banks can only provide the cash and the government the incentive, if the people has said that the prices were ridiculous and didn't buy the houses or apartments, i.e. play the property game, the market would never would have gone the way it did. Those who played the game are equally as culpable.

You hit the nail on the head right there. EQUALLY AS CULPABLE. So why then are you advocating that only one party to this debacle suffer and not any others, i.e. banks and government?

nino1

Bambi wrote: »

nino1 wrote: »

There were plenty of warnings out there that this would happen but you were obviously one of those who chose to ignore those warnings.

So that would be him, the government, the media, the banks, the accountants, the financial regulator and pretty much every one else who was coining it on the back of a property boom that ignored these warnings . Yet it's joe schmoes fault that he listened to the experts.

Plenty of experts warned of the crash too.

So Joe schmoe had a choice and those joe's that chose badly need to suck it up.

jackiebaron

Flex wrote: »

Ok............. When the banks are suddenly out of pocket for all these debts that are no longer being repaid theyll ask the government for money to make up the difference. The government gets its money from taxpayers, not arboretums.

And why should the government give the banks money anymore than a bar owner or shop owner gets money from the government when their business fails?

Jocker

Jocker wrote: »

At last! The Irish people are waking up to their Governments corruption and are calling for action for people to stop paying their mortgages and in return cause the banks to crash bringing the power back to the people.

This has taken too long to happen but come on people carry this out and teach these elitist gangsters a lesson for once and for all. Claim your country back and let Mr. Kenny know he is not a leader of the Irish but a servant who better listen before the **** really hits the fan in Ireland.

The Irish have had many chances to turn this all around but have had their heads in the sand for far too long to their own detriment. .To be able to stick your head in the sand you must be on your knees. Now lets all get these currupt IMF slaves on their knees and bring the banks also to their knees. They are thrwing people out of their homes and couldn't care less about the faith of the people or their families they are evicting.

What goes around certainly comes back around but this has taken too long to come back around. Start action NOW people and claim your sovereignty back. This could be your last chance to make a stand to protect your own interests and those of your kids for the future.

Just to get some of my own principles straight which may have been misconstrued in my post! I am an ex pat living in mainland Europe and looking at this situation from a distance is heartbreaking to say the least. The Irish are hard working people but they need to get some of their priorities straight as they have been robbed blind by the corruption by the bankers and their cronies the politicians. When people realize that politicians are not making deals in the interest of their fellow countrymen the better. Look where they have gotten the country so far only over the past decade! They are gangsters and are getting away with their corruption, back hander, deals behind closed doors and more that hasn't even been brought to light to the detriment of the Irish people. Something I have noticed which I cannot get my head around is the lack of information about Ireland's natural resources and exactly what is happening or will happen to the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion. The Irish need a bailout of €€85billioin and the EU and money lenders will make €9 billion on this transaction. They started out to rob the country and they are still doing it. They will not be happy until Ireland is completely broken and the people are so demoralized that they swallow anything told to them by their so called leaders. These people couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.
Regarding borrowing mortgages and not paying it back. I am not in favour of this as it would be very bad for the country not to forget the people who can pay their mortgages who feel they will have to fit the bill. Even these people should have in my opinion a reduction in their mortgages. The bankers robbed everyone who received a mortgage with their exponential rates and now they won't even agree to help people in difficulty who can pay but not how the bankers want them to pay. For example; there are people in Ireland I know who have lost their businesses, let their employees go and got into difficulty paying their mortgage. They tried to come to some agreement with their bank which was very reasonable and didn't involve defaulting on their payments but implementing a supple solution until they get back on their feet. NO said their bankers, we want everything within the contractual agreement or your out. 2 houses were reclaimed and put on the market for 1/3 of the mortgage my friends were paying. What is this? They are shooting themselves in the foot but seemingly would rather teach a lesson than step over the line and come to some feasible compromise with the mortgage payers. Something extreme has to happen in Ireland if only to get the heads of the Irish out of the sand (while on their knees) This whole banking system is corrupt and you are all falling prey to Mr.. Fantastic Ende Kenny and his cronies and the bankers. Be Irish, fight back and let them know you will not be taken for a ride like this any more for your kids sake!
The Irish puppet Government needs to be shown a sign of solidarity by the Irish people. Stop them in their tracks now and let them get on their knees for a change as they visit their IMF and EU buddies.
I firmly believe that if they keep going the way they are then people will eventually revolt against the powers that be and that would not be a pretty site which will have even more long term consequences for Ireland. Don't people realize that no matter what they vote against will always be passed by the Government as they have their EU colleagues in their ears to get laws passed in the so called interest of the rest of Europe. I wonder how many people have actually read the small print in the Lisbon Treaty. Obviously not many as this would have caused riots alone.
By the way, where is the criminal Berty Ahern gangster? Behind bars? This is what I am trying to convey, they are all getting away with their crap and nothing is done about it. Enough is enough. These gangsters would be brought up before the peoples courts and convicted for their hand in the wrecking of Ireland and the lives of the Irish indirectly. That guy deserves a very very long term sentence.

jackiebaron

sarumite wrote: »

Though the French are still paying their mortgages. What are the consequence of letting the "banks suffer"? Would the bank suffer in isolation. So many SME's rely on banking credit to remain viable for example, would that be cut off. If a bank goes under and takes our savings with them, the taxpayer would be left to cover their savings.

Take a close look at Iceland. They let their banks fail and as a result are doing a hell of a lot better than Ireland is right now.

People on here are constantly bleating that house buyers made a decision and should face the consequences. Strange how they don't apply this same logic to the banks as well, like the Icelanders do.

the culture of deference

Thoie wrote: »

I'm confused by the reference to "elitist gangsters" and don't know if you're referring to the government, the unions or homeowners.

Regardless, like man.about.town, as a grown-up who made a decision to take out a mortgage, I'll live up to my side of the bargain by paying it. The bank lived up to their side by giving me money.

eh the bank created the money out of thin air when you signed the papers

Frank Black

jackiebaron wrote: »

or take bosses hostage and dowse them in petrol and threaten to torch them and the government relents. That's called DEMOCRACY

I actually believe that's called reckless endangerment at the least or more likely criminal threatening behavior.

the culture of deference

the culture of deference wrote: »

eh the bank created the money out of thin air when you signed the papers

not exactly the money would have been taken from depositors and lent out - fractional reserve banking - the ECB is the one who makes money and they dont really their stated aim is to cap inflation - price stability

dvpower

Jocker wrote: »

[...]I cannot get my head around is the lack of information about Ireland's natural resources and exactly what is happening or will happen to the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion[...]

I stopped reading at this point.

RichardAnd

jackiebaron wrote: »

Take a close look at Iceland. They let their banks fail and as a result are doing a hell of a lot better than Ireland is right now.

People on here are constantly bleating that house buyers made a decision and should face the consequences. Strange how they don't apply this same logic to the banks as well, like the Icelanders do.

Most people do feel like that about bankers. I've yet to hear a single person tell me they agree with the bank bail out so where you're getting the notion that the logic of "your mess, your clean-up" isn't applied to banks.

Dyr

nino1 wrote: »

Plenty of experts warned of the crash too.

So Joe schmoe had a choice and those joe's that chose badly need to suck it up.

Name 'em so: show me the banks, accountancy firms, government depts, politicians and regulatory bodies that cried "Halt". Show me the acres of prints and minutes of tv dedicated to these people stating that the wheels were falling off prior to 2007.

The only way that the average person can be held accountable for the property market was that they elected the muppets who perpetuated it, but then, in Ireland democracy is only a choice of which muppets are running the muppet show.

RichardAnd

Jocker wrote: »

...

Something I have noticed which I cannot get my head around is the lack of information about Ireland's natural resources and exactly what is happening or will happen to the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion.

...

Could you provide the source for this claim?