Unions call to not pay mortgages

andrew

The government is now the owner, or majority stakeholder, in most Irish banks now, right? So esentially, when people pay back their loans, they're paying money to a government institution. The debts of this institution are owned by the government, and they government has responsibility for paying them. And who pays the government? Taxpayers. So really, I'm pretty amazed that people think this is a good idea; every person who defaults on their loan like this creates a debt that others, you me, the people advocating for this, will pay. In no way does this serve to damage anyone but the taxpayer ultimately. It doesn't harm the 'bankers' or the EU, or the IMF, or politicians, or whoever people love to hate at the moment. The only person who would benefit from this is the person not paying their mortgage and even then the benefit is negligable; In addition to ruining their credit score, the defaulter will end up contributing to their loan through higher taxes anyway. So really, whichever way you look at it, this suggestion is mind-bendingly stupid.

Name 'em so: show me the banks, accountancy firms, government depts, politicians and regulatory bodies that cried "Halt". Show me the acres of prints and minutes of tv dedicated to these people stating that the wheels were falling off prior to 2007.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM

sarumite

southsiderosie wrote: »

The best thing that Ireland could do for both homeowners and potential entrepreneurs is reform the bankruptcy/debtor laws so that people can wipe the slate clean after five to seven years.

QFT

Jocker

RichardAnd wrote: »

Could you provide the source for this claim?

Take a look at this: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/hunt-for-1-trillion-worth-of-irish-oil-to-begin-152395.html

No mention of the profits going to Ireland like the Swedish do with their oil. The way this works is as follows. The sweeds get Shell in to drill, their Government imposes a 75% levy on the pumped oil and that goes back into the swedish pot wherby the swedish people directly benefit. Ireland is paying billions every year for their imported oil. This should be a thing of the past when the holes around the Irish coast deliver BUT no the irish politicians give it away to their EU buddies and borrow 85billion into the bargain. Where's the justice in this. When this comes out the hell will break out in Ireland as they still pay off their bankers bailout. Iceland defaulted on their debts and their economy is growing the fastest in Europe which will allow them to pay back their debts eventually. They basically said NO to their Government and look where it is getting them. Let's hope the streets of Ireland don't see riots like in Greece at the moment whcih will happen when you strip the Irish of all of their money and dignity whilst the politicians sit in their luxurious dwellings, go on their expensive holidays and laugh at you all in the process.

dvpower

Bambi wrote: »

The only way that the average person can be held accountable for the property market was that they elected the muppets who perpetuated it.

... or perpetuated it themselves by entering that market.

katiebelle

Ok so what happens to all these people who wont pay their mortgage? They WILL all lose their homes eventually. So then they will have to either go on a council waiting list ( good luck there ) or rent privately. So either way the taxpayer is going to be footing the bill either by paying for more council houses or rent allowance if these people are unemployed. If they are employed they will be paying rent to a private landlord and are somehow happy to pay his mortgage and not their own ?? Yeah that makes total sense.

dvpower

Jocker wrote: »

Take a look at this: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/hunt-for-1-trillion-worth-of-irish-oil-to-begin-152395.html

That's not a source for your claim.

the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion

Can you at least tell us the name of the hole?

Nody

Jocker wrote: »

Ireland's natural resources and exactly what is happening or will happen to the earnings from oil being drilled in 1 hole off the Irish coast which will be due to start pumping in 2013 with a value of 650 billion.

Stop reading Shell to sea propaganda and come back to reality; there is:

a) No 650 billion worth of oil on the Irish coast that has been identified or found (the number was purely hypohetical number made up by the government to try to get interest in bidding on the rights to drill in Irish waters; it is now repeated everywhere as a truth which it is not and the people who's most keen to repeat it are trying to get paid (Shell to sea or Irish oil drilling companies looking for funding))
b) No single hole would ever give 650 billion worth of oil alone
c) There is no oil coming up in 2013 as far as I'm aware
d) The only current commercial field is a very small gas field (Corrib) that will give negligle income (both to the state and the company pumping it)

In conclusion, there are currently close to non existant identified natural resources of oil and gas that are commercially viable around Ireland. The only people who believe different are either:

a) People who want risk funding (see the article you linked)
b) People who want to make a case for higher corporate tax on non existing resources as a magical bullet solution
c) People who want to get paid more to shut up (see Shell to sea)

Now IF and that is a big if since the search has gone on for over 40 years this magical oil shows up (and for some reason was not found previously...) we can return to speculate on it but for now it is a waste of time.

ei.sdraob

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Not so! Bankruptcy reform is in the works (5 yrs vs 12 yrs) - link.

Thanks! I was away while this happened so missed the news

gman2k

Red Alert wrote: »

I don't have a mortgage. I also have no responsibility for the "intelligent folk" who borrowed ridiculous sums to buy vastly overpriced houses/apartments, believing that the price was going to go up and up. Any concession to existing mortgage holders is really unfair to those of us who had the sense not to start something we couldn't handle.

Wow, aren't you the lucky one? Was it your innate sense of cleverness that stopped you from buying a home at the wrong time, or were you just lucky that life worked out that way for you?

Sure, fcuk 'em all who are in trouble at the moment, see where that leads.
Debt forgiveness is fine for
Banks
Bondholders
Sovereign Debt
Investors

But wait, any proposal to help fellow citizens is met with cries of 'let 'em burn, scumbags the lot of 'em'.

BTW, I'm a total scumbag now going by the definitions issued here.
Doesn't matter that myself and the partner have third level qualifications, worked as professionals in our chosen careers for many a year. That 'gamble' did not pay off.
The fact that I will never again work in this profession in Ireland in my working career - tough luck, that's called gambling.:rolleyes:
I suppose we were just gambling through life, we didn't build a home, we invested in a financial instrument called property to which we had no emotional attachment:rolleyes:
Our life savings are gone, that's what happens when you gamble.:rolleyes:
Can't afford medical insurance, having children, or any of the new property based taxes.
Having trouble paying the mortgage - tough, gambler. :rolleyes:

What is your solution? Status quo of the existing system? Where tens of thousands and probably running into the hundreds of thousands of families and individuals are thrown onto the bonfire?
Sell your house? To who? What happens to neg equity?
Rent your house? To who? Who makes up the shortfall?
Emigration? Maybe that's the answer for an individual to escape from a debt scenario that will drag them down for the rest of their lives. For society and the wider economy on a large scale it is a death knell.
Pretending that the 'solutions' of the past are going to solve the problems of the future in this country is truly head in the sand time.
In times of bankruptcy, deals are made, debt is written off, people move on.
Nobody is looking for a free ride.

For anyone who is lucky enough not to be in my situation or like the many tens of thousands of other families, do me a favour. Next time you are in with your GP, ask him or her about the social and psychological consequences of what is happening in this country at the moment.
What they will tell you will truly shock you.

Regards,
a failed scumbag gambler.:rolleyes:

southsiderosie

Bambi wrote: »

Name 'em so: show me the banks, accountancy firms, government depts, politicians and regulatory bodies that cried "Halt". Show me the acres of prints and minutes of tv dedicated to these people stating that the wheels were falling off prior to 2007.

The only way that the average person can be held accountable for the property market was that they elected the muppets who perpetuated it, but then, in Ireland democracy is only a choice of which muppets are running the muppet show.

I don't understand this whole "but the experts said" business.

As an adult, you should be able to look at your income and make a rational decision about what you could or could not afford, irregardless of what the experts were saying or the frothiness of the market. There were plenty of people who could have gotten a mortgage under the lax lending requirements, but did the math themselves and it didn't add up.

katiebelle wrote: »

Ok so what happens to all these people who wont pay their mortgage? They WILL all lose their homes eventually. So then they will have to either go on a council waiting list ( good luck there ) or rent privately. So either way the taxpayer is going to be footing the bill either by paying for more council houses or rent allowance if these people are unemployed. If they are employed they will be paying rent to a private landlord and are somehow happy to pay his mortgage and not their own ?? Yeah that makes total sense.

Yes it makes total sense if their rent is a third of their mortgage cost, but they are getting the same or similar in terms of their housing. What is so hard to understand about this?

HellFireClub

katiebelle wrote: »

Ok so what happens to all these people who wont pay their mortgage? They WILL all lose their homes eventually. So then they will have to either go on a council waiting list ( good luck there ) or rent privately. So either way the taxpayer is going to be footing the bill either by paying for more council houses or rent allowance if these people are unemployed. If they are employed they will be paying rent to a private landlord and are somehow happy to pay his mortgage and not their own ?? Yeah that makes total sense.

The banks of this country need to be put down. Everyone should refuse to pay their mortgage for 3 months and put them out of their misery.

The same scumbag relationship managers and branch managers that are still in their jobs, these are the same people who were refusing to support non property related enterprises in the boom.

I think a mortgage strike is an excellent idea, if everyone refused to pay their mortgage for 3 months, the banks would fall and their Celtic Tiger legacy debts would fall with them.

nino1

Bambi wrote: »

nino1 wrote: »

Plenty of experts warned of the crash too.

So Joe schmoe had a choice and those joe's that chose badly need to suck it up.

Name 'em so: show me the banks, accountancy firms, government depts, politicians and regulatory bodies that cried "Halt". Show me the acres of prints and minutes of tv dedicated to these people stating that the wheels were falling off prior to 2007.

The only way that the average person can be held accountable for the property market was that they elected the muppets who perpetuated it, but then, in Ireland democracy is only a choice of which muppets are running the muppet show.

Morgan Kelly was one of many and yes there were warnings about a crash in many newspapers prior to 2007. Admittedly not front page headlines but if you are going to buy a house you should be seeking these out.
Also look at boards.ie from 2006, many warned of it there too, just most people chose to ignore it.
Anyways you shouldn't need to be told. Most people who brought houses are old enough to have been around in the 80's.
The cyclical nature of recessions is a fact of life.

andrew

HellFireClub wrote: »

The banks of this country need to be put down. Everyone should refuse to pay their mortgage for 3 months and put them out of their misery.

The same scumbag relationship managers and branch managers that are still in their jobs, these are the same people who were refusing to support non property related enterprises in the boom.

I think a mortgage strike is an excellent idea, if everyone refused to pay their mortgage for 3 months, the banks would fall and their Celtic Tiger legacy debts would fall with them.

The banks have already fallen, that's why the state owns them.

sarumite

gman2k wrote: »

Wow, aren't you the lucky one? Was it your innate sense of cleverness that stopped you from buying a home at the wrong time, or were you just lucky that life worked out that way for you?

Sure, fcuk 'em all who are in trouble at the moment, see where that leads.
Debt forgiveness is fine for
Banks
Bondholders
Sovereign Debt
Investors

But wait, any proposal to help fellow citizens is met with cries of 'let 'em burn, scumbags the lot of 'em'.

Personally I never thought it was fine to offer debt forgiveness to bondholders or investers. Those who owned the banks did not get debt forgivness as their shares are worthless. Not sure where you are going witht he sovereign debt though?

Unfortunately we did bail out the banks though. That doesn't mean that we should now look to bail out another group as well. At some point we the taxpayer have to say no more. That point should have been the bailing out of Anglo, unfortuantely it wasn't.

What is your solution? Status quo of the existing system? Where tens of thousands and probably running into the hundreds of thousands of families and individuals are thrown onto the bonfire?
Sell your house? To who? What happens to neg equity?
Rent your house? To who? Who makes up the shortfall?
Emigration? Maybe that's the answer for an individual to escape from a debt scenario that will drag them down for the rest of their lives. For society and the wider economy on a large scale it is a death knell.
Pretending that the 'solutions' of the past are going to solve the problems of the future in this country is truly head in the sand time.
In times of bankruptcy, deals are made, debt is written off, people move on.
Nobody is looking for a free ride.

For anyone who is lucky enough not to be in my situation or like the many tens of thousands of other families, do me a favour. Next time you are in with your GP, ask him or her about the social and psychological consequences of what is happening in this country at the moment.
What they will tell you will truly shock you.

Regards,
a failed scumbag gambler.:rolleyes:

Again, personally speaking I believe a better system of banruptcy needs to prevail. This would allow those who cannot come to an agreement with the banks a way out. It will be tough for the 5-7 years, though after that your financial history should be wiped clean and you can start over.

Ultimately we need to come to the realisation that having a home is not the same as owning property.

sarumite

HellFireClub wrote: »

I think a mortgage strike is an excellent idea, if everyone refused to pay their mortgage for 3 months, the banks would fall and their Celtic Tiger legacy debts would fall with them.

Unfortauntely its too late for that now...their "celtic tiger legacy debts" are now owned by the taxpayer.

Nody

HellFireClub wrote: »

The banks of this country need to be put down. Everyone should refuse to pay their mortgage for 3 months and put them out of their misery.

The same scumbag relationship managers and branch managers that are still in their jobs, these are the same people who were refusing to support non property related enterprises in the boom.

I think a mortgage strike is an excellent idea, if everyone refused to pay their mortgage for 3 months, the banks would fall and their Celtic Tiger legacy debts would fall with them.

And then everyone would need to pay even more levies and fees to fund the shortfall, great plan!

Next up, we'll tell IMF and EU to stuff it and threaten to default so they lower their crazy high rates compared to the market instead to keep Ireland afloat.

And when they say no we default and balance our budget over night cutting out around 18 Billions worth of spending in one go! This will of course mean only minor adjustment for people (around 40% cuts in benefits, subsidies, salaries etc.) and with the banks crashing the ATMs running dry (since there is no money or banks to fill them) we'll announce the introduction of the new punt, the saviour to all our woes and stand around shocked when no one want to touch the currency on the international market.

southsiderosie

sarumite wrote: »

Ultimately we need to come to the realisation that having a home is not the same as owning property.

But from the perspective of the bank, it is exactly the same thing. So people should either recognize that it is a commodity, or be more careful about not buying more home than they can afford because it is the 'done' thing.

jackiebaron

black francis wrote: »

I actually believe that's called reckless endangerment at the least or more likely criminal threatening behavior.

Right!
Would you say the same about a guy who beats the **** out of the local racketeer for extorting him?

jackiebaron

dvpower wrote: »

I stopped reading at this point.

I know. According to Royal Dutch Shell it should be closer to 5 Trillion.

Dannyboy83

Bill to allow bankruptcy to end after five years
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0625/1224299585102.html

For the court to consider an application for release or discharge from bankruptcy after five years, the bankrupt will have to have discharged the expenses, fees and costs of the bankruptcy and the preferential payments.

What does this mean?

dvpower

jackiebaron wrote: »

I know. According to Royal Dutch Shell it should be closer to 5 Trillion.

There's €5tn in the unnamed well?:eek:

gman2k

Nody wrote: »

Next up, we'll tell IMF and EU to stuff it and threaten to default so they lower their crazy high rates compared to the market instead to keep Ireland afloat.

Without straying off topic too much....:D
The proposed interest rate cut will have no impact our certain default.
When a small country like Ireland has a debt level of c.€250 billion in a few years time, it will have no choice but to default.
All that's happening up till then is ensuring that they get as much money out of us until the inevitable default happens. Simples.

Jocker

HellFireClub wrote: »

The banks of this country need to be put down. Everyone should refuse to pay their mortgage for 3 months and put them out of their misery.

The same scumbag relationship managers and branch managers that are still in their jobs, these are the same people who were refusing to support non property related enterprises in the boom.

I think a mortgage strike is an excellent idea, if everyone refused to pay their mortgage for 3 months, the banks would fall and their Celtic Tiger legacy debts would fall with them.

My sentiments exactly. Otherwise there will be no end to this bottomless pit!

weldoninhio

I'm no economist, but having read this thread i'm shocked at the things i missed. People having no choice but to buy overpriced houses!! I live just outside of Dublin and i don't remember seeing thousands of 20-odd year old blue collar workers roaming the streets homeless, and being forced by the heartless banks to but these overpriced shoebox apartments!!

Where did they live before they got a "bargain" one bed apartment to call their own for E450,000?? Irish people went into the boom like it was a competition. I got my apartment for E300,000 but its worth E400,000 now, how much did you pay for yours?? etc!! How often did we hear cráp like this during the boom?? And it wasn't just property, it was holidays, cars, boys toys, everything.

Now everything has hit the wall and its someone elses fault!! Pure Irish Attitude!!

Someone asked why the banks should get a "bailout" when other businesses don't?? I'd imagine its because when other businesses cannot afford to pay for stock up front etc. they go to the banks for a "bailout" in the form or overdrafts, loans or finance and leasing loans!! If the government doesn't help the banks, who is there to provide the overdrafts to the smaller businesses down the line??

HellFireClub

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'm no economist, but having read this thread i'm shocked at the things i missed. People having no choice but to buy overpriced houses!! I live just outside of Dublin and i don't remember seeing thousands of 20-odd year old blue collar workers roaming the streets homeless, and being forced by the heartless banks to but these overpriced shoebox apartments!!

Where did they live before they got a "bargain" one bed apartment to call their own for E450,000?? Irish people went into the boom like it was a competition. I got my apartment for E300,000 but its worth E400,000 now, how much did you pay for yours?? etc!! How often did we hear cráp like this during the boom?? And it wasn't just property, it was holidays, cars, boys toys, everything.

Now everything has hit the wall and its someone elses fault!! Pure Irish Attitude!!

Someone asked why the banks should get a "bailout" when other businesses don't?? I'd imagine its because when other businesses cannot afford to pay for stock up front etc. they go to the banks for a "bailout" in the form or overdrafts, loans or finance and leasing loans!! If the government doesn't help the banks, who is there to provide the overdrafts to the smaller businesses down the line??

It's funny how in Ireland, those that made the most out of enforcing the the primary rule of capitialism during the boom, (which is that success is rewarded and failure is punished), are themselves the only entities now that are exempt from the same key rule of capitalism, by virtue of the publicising of private debt...

I don't know why people fail to see something vicious and rotten in all of this. As taxpayers, we now own the banks, so why are we tolerating a situation whereby people working within these banks at branch level who are killing small businesses, can hunker themselves down for the long haul and remain in place???

Clearly protesting is not sorting out our banks, being angry is not going to sort out the banks, rioting won't do it, but a mortgage strike, well why not says I?!?!?

And as for the smug bleeding hearts on here who say it will just add to our debt, at this stage, who gives a f*ck. We are on a road to failure anyway, so anyone with half a brain would see the logic of bringing that day much closer and having our "Black Monday", our "Black Wednesday" or whatever and then getting on with it under a proper banking structure.

We are 3 years into this now and every year and every month has been worst than the previous. Trundling along with our problems and kicking the can up the road, clearly has done nothing except worsen our problems.

Bring it on I think...

maggy_thatcher

HellFireClub wrote: »

And as for the smug bleeding hearts on here who say it will just add to our debt, at this stage, who gives a f*ck.

But don't forget - it'll add to your own personal debt, as well as any national problems -- both in the form of a missed payment meaning more interest being applicable to your loan, any applicable penalties for failure to pay (without prior notification) + a black mark on your credit report preventing you from getting a credit-card, car loan, etc.

Now if you're already unable to pay your mortgage, these are smaller issues in comparison to the big picture, but if you can pay but choose not to because of this "strike", all you're going to harm in the long run is yourself.

jased10s

The thing is we had a choice to buy a home but we had no choice or referendem on the bank bail out.

What gave brian lenihan the right to make this decision for us ?

The USC has broke many a back of the person who would otherwise be able to service their Mortgage.

And also our so called EU state charging us interest on the Loan. I thought if you lent a neighbours or friends in need a €10 then you got €10 back .

Do you charge friends interest now ?

COYW

jackiebaron wrote: »

You're missing the point. If the credit union advised you that the car was a collectible and that you should most definitely buy it.

You are making it sound like the banks were some sort of estate agent and that the borrower is some sort of victim here. The banks didn't kidnap people passing by their doors and force them to take out loans/mortgages at gunpoint. On approaching a bank for a mortgage the staff member didn't say, "Oh you don't want to buy that average 3 bed in Mayo, take a look at the fabulous house in D8". You MUST take the mortgage for the D8 house. Think about how impressed all your family and friends will be.

In the boom years credit was easy, so we all had a choice,

- starting playing the property game and take on the debt.

- stay away and be looked upon as a smuck.

Some/most of those who decided to play the game lost, now they have to deal with the consequences and re-pay what they owe.

katiebelle

katiebelle wrote: »

Ok so what happens to all these people who wont pay their mortgage? They WILL all lose their homes eventually. So then they will have to either go on a council waiting list ( good luck there ) or rent privately. So either way the taxpayer is going to be footing the bill either by paying for more council houses or rent allowance if these people are unemployed. If they are employed they will be paying rent to a private landlord and are somehow happy to pay his mortgage and not their own ?? Yeah that makes total sense.

It makes perfect sense, people can rent as rents will come down and those who havent bought yet will benefit from lower house prices. If NAMA properties were released then rent supplement could be abolished such is the number of vacant properties in the country - 26,000 apartments in Dublin alone!!

The economy will benefit as a whole as people wont be spending as much on rents and mortgages and will spend in the economy.

When there are 300,000 empty properties in the country there is no need for rent supplement and no need for council housing

blarney_boy

This constant pleading that "the banks make me do it" is really tiresome, people bought houses on thirty five year mortgages seven times their annual income because house prices were a "on way bet" and "the booms times are getting boomier", now that they've realised that "the value of our investment may fall as well as rise", it's time for the Irish taxpayer to ride to the rescue, sure didn't we "bail out the banks"?

Well the answer is now "we" didn't bail out the banks, Brian Cowen and Brian Linehan bailed out the banks, the irish taxpayer was quite happy to let the banks burn in financial hell, but Fianna Fail to the the rescue, no bondholder left behind etc. People who expect the current government to perform a similar act of fiscal suicide will be sorely disappointed (I hope)!