Holland set to boot out Polish immigrants who can't find work after 3 months.

Run_to_da_hills

Holland is on a collision course with the EU over a threat to deport Poles and other eastern Europeans who cannot find work and withhold their state benefits if they don't speak Dutch

Could Ireland do the same here if Immigrants here can't get work and fail to speak Irish.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011096/Holland-set-collision-EU-plans-deport-Polish-immigrants-job.html

sollar

It isn't a bad idea, perhaps it should be longer for people who have been here a long time. But someone coming over working a few months and then staying and drawing the dole for years is not going to be good for this country

lecker Hendl

let's hope they don't deport the nationals that don't speak irish. There won't be anyone left.

opinion guy

How about we just kick out all the racists from all over Europe and give them their own country ? THat'll work won't it ?


Some of you seem to have real problems understanding the basic functioning of the EU

onemorechance

Don't think they should be so quick to kick them out, but they should have to make some effort to learn the language.

Celly Smunt

onemorechance wrote: »

Don't think they should be so quick to kick them out, but they should have to make some effort to learn the language.

surely they should be tested on their knowledge of the country and language before hand,something like the British residency test thing

Run_to_da_hills

onemorechance wrote: »

Don't think they should be so quick to kick them out, but they should have to make some effort to learn the language.

You could be damn sure if the national language became a requirement they would pick it up a lot quicker than any of us did and put us to shame with it.

man.about.town

not a bad idea at all.. all i know is the social welfare system isnt working here, if this is some way to save alot money im all for it

onemorechance

pmcmahon wrote: »

surely they should be tested on their knowledge of the country and language before hand,something like the British residency test thing

I doubt it, free movement in EU I'd say it's hard to put such restrictions. Could be the start of a less freedom of movement Europe.

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Holland is on a collision course with the EU over a threat to deport Poles and other eastern Europeans who cannot find work and withhold their state benefits if they don't speak Dutch

Could Ireland do the same here if Immigrants here can't get work and fail to speak Irish.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2011096/Holland-set-collision-EU-plans-deport-Polish-immigrants-job.html

You can't arrive here and claim benefits, so it doesn't apply.

sollar

opinion guy wrote: »

Some of you seem to have real problems understanding the basic functioning of the EU

Rules are not always correct. If immigration is becoming a problem for a country then they need to do something about it. What would happen of 5 million eastern europeans decide they want to move to holland. Should the dutch allow it just because the 'rules' say so??

OPENROAD

onemorechance wrote: »

I doubt it, free movement in EU I'd say it's hard to put such restrictions. Could be the start of a less freedom of movement Europe.

That will hit the Irish hard.

policarp

lecker Hendl wrote: »

let's hope they don't deport the nationals that don't speak irish. There won't be anyone left.

Mightn't be such a bad idea at all...

opinion guy

sollar wrote: »

Rules are not always correct. If immigration is becoming a problem for a country then they need to do something about it. What would happen of 5 million eastern europeans decide they want to move to holland. Should the dutch allow it just because the 'rules' say so??

The Dutch should allow it because that is what they signed up to allow it. Same as everyone else. Same rules that let lots of Irish go find work in Germany in the 80's.

Celly Smunt

onemorechance wrote: »

I doubt it, free movement in EU I'd say it's hard to put such restrictions. Could be the start of a less freedom of movement Europe.

not if they went down the sovereign security background check route,there are always loopholes,however in Ireland's circumstances and the mass emigration i don't think it would be a good mover for Ireland

onemorechance

OPENROAD wrote: »

That will hit the Irish hard.

Probably more than most. It does seem though with Greece needing extra money, countries not really being on the same page with regards to the future for Europe, there are surely some big changes ahead.

NSNO

The EU will slap this down, it's a non-starter. Obviously the Daily Mail couldn't resist though

The question should be about the speed of future European expansion, that's the real issue. The EU needs to stop expanding into countries in which even a good salary cannot compete even with western EU state benefits. I'd argue that there is no reason for the EU to expand even within the next 25 years (except obviously Norway/Switzerland)

However, the creation of a two-tier European Union of the countries already in the Union is dangerous and threatens the very fundamentals upon which the EU was built. It's indicative of a rising reactionary xenophobia in many countries. It's the tragedy that always follows economic difficulties - the native population blame immigrants rather than the politicians/bankers who really caused the mess.

At least the rise of the reactionary right following this current economic collapse is relatively mild compared to others in recent European history!

scudzilla

opinion guy wrote: »

How about we just kick out all the racists from all over Europe and give them their own country ? THat'll work won't it ?


Some of you seem to have real problems understanding the basic functioning of the EU

How can this be classed as racism? If certain people come over here and their sole aim is to claim benefits then they should be kicked out, wether they're black, blue, white, yellow, pink or green.

And after all, this is people's opinions, take note of yer username

The Princess Bride

I have friends who moved to France and Holland to work many years ago,and all made effort to learn French/ Dutch- no big deal,it was necessary for their employment.

We are too tolerant here perhaps?

During the boom, we had EU/non EU nationals coming here to work,we couldn't get enough of them,and -maybe- we overlooked the fact they didn't speak English because they worked hard?
Granted,most of them made the effort to learn English.Some however,didn't learn it, lost their jobs during recession,and now sit at home wondering why they can't find work- hello- it helps to speak the lingo,no?
I have a Polish friend who is frustrated that some of her friends here don't make the effort to learn eng- it becomes a greater issue when their kids go to school and have to learn both eng& irish-nightmare.

saywhatyousee

I have been to Holland 9 times,only twice have i been addressed in Dutch.Perhaps they should be fluent in English,most Dutch people seem to prefer speaking it.

OPENROAD

msthe80s wrote: »

I have friends who moved to France and Holland to work many years ago,and all made effort to learn French/ Dutch- no big deal,it was necessary for their employment.

We are too tolerant here perhaps?

During the boom, we had EU/non EU nationals coming here to work,we couldn't get enough of them,and -maybe- we overlooked the fact they didn't speak English because they worked hard?
Granted,most of them made the effort to learn English.Some however,didn't learn it, lost their jobs during recession,and now sit at home wondering why they can't find work- hello- it helps to speak the lingo,no?
I have a Polish friend who is frustrated that some of her friends here don't make the effort to learn eng- it becomes a greater issue when their kids go to school and have to learn both eng& irish-nightmare.

Most of them speak perfect English imo, in fact better English then a lot of locals.

Stinicker

.... inserts witty remark about attractive polish women here.

Drake66

sollar wrote: »

Rules are not always correct. If immigration is becoming a problem for a country then they need to do something about it. What would happen of 5 million eastern europeans decide they want to move to holland. Should the dutch allow it just because the 'rules' say so??

Yeah because it is not as if Dutch people have never moved on mass to other people's countries in the past!

The Princess Bride

OPENROAD wrote: »

Most of them speak perfect English imo, in fact better English then a lot of locals.

IME- some rather than most- but I admire anyone who goes to a different country and adapts rather than expects everyone to pity them, and spends their life moaning.

OPENROAD

msthe80s wrote: »

IME- some rather than most- but I admire anyone who goes to a different country and adapts rather than expects everyone to pity them, and spends their life moaning.

Well certainly those working in retail

Belly_Dancer

This is a very good idea.
Well done to the Dutch for this.
Given our economic situation we should consider a similar move.

Also with all these foreigners we should have the option to pay them the same dole/social welfare rates as they would get in their own country.
I think you would see quite a few one way flights to Riga, Vilnius, & Warsaw etc.:D

wild_cat

I dunno, we're thinking of moving to the mainland in the next few years and have started to learn the language of that country already.

I think its rude to live full time in another country and not speak to the locals in their native tongue.

But...

I am a big fan of the freedom of movement within the EU and their plans will be shot down quick enough.

Those right wingers the Dutch voted in are throwing out some odd stuff lately.

LighterGuy

What Holland is doing can be seen as looking out for ones own interests... and you know something? WE ALL DO IT. This is just a country doing it in this case rather than an individual. This whole "if they dont speak dutch" is boll*x. Just a cover story to get some people out.

Do i agree with it? ... Kinda. 3 months is too short of a time. A person can loose their job and spend months trying to get another. If it was a year? and social welfare payments would stop? fair enough.

I really cant see why the majority on here would be against it. Any time there is mention of social welfare fraud people w*nk on about how its disgraceful etc. But what do you think a hefty precentage of eastern europeans are doing? Not just in holland but over here?

Last year with the ash clouds a few thousand eastern europeans missed their "sign in" day for the SW. The same week airplanes were grounded. Its no secret the SW over here went "hold on!?"

All Holland is trying to do is to stamp out social fraud and illegal working.

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

What Holland is doing can be seen as looking out for ones own interests... and you know something? WE ALL DO IT. This is just a country doing it in this case rather than an individual. This whole "if they dont speak dutch" is boll*x. Just a cover story to get some people out.

Do i agree with it? ... Kinda. 3 months is too short of a time. A person can loose their job and spend months trying to get another. If it was a year? and social welfare payments would stop? fair enough.

I really cant see why the majority on here would be against it. Any time there is mention of social welfare fraud people w*nk on about how its disgraceful etc. But what do you think a hefty precentage of eastern europeans are doing? Not just in holland but over here?

Last year with the ash clouds a few thousand eastern europeans missed their "sign in" day for the SW. The same week airplanes were grounded. Its no secret the SW over here went "hold on!?"

All Holland is trying to do is to stamp out social fraud and illegal working.

Assume you are talking about if someone loses a joband can't find one withine three months? You could not react alone though, so all those Irish in the UK would be in the same position I assume?

Belly_Dancer

Charity begins at home, especially in these tough economic times.
Those Eastern Europeans who are/were eager to work left Ireland long ago.
Those that remain are either the few who are fortunate to still have a job, or those who are enjoying our overly generous SW system.

It's time we got real.

OPENROAD

Belly_Dancer wrote: »

Charity begins at home, especially in these tough economic times.
Those Eastern Europeans who are/were eager to work left Ireland long ago.
Those that remain are either the few who are fortunate to still have a job, or those who are enjoying our overly generous SW system.

It's time we got real.

You have no problem though if they have a job or come over and get a job?

LighterGuy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Assume you are talking about if someone loses a joband can't find one withine three months? You could not react alone though, so all those Irish in the UK would be in the same position I assume?

Simple fact is how many irish people are working over here, or collect SW over here and frauding the UK for SW too? ... sure theres some. Not a hefty percentage.

I heard last year there was close to 10,000 eastern european nationals failing to sign-on during the ash cloud period. We've all heard the stories. Eastern european people fly in on sign-on days and fly back out.

To me, this whole "non dutch speaking" is just official BS. Unofficially, they want to tackle people abusing their SW system. After all, most of the polish frauding our SW system can barely speak a lick of english.

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

Simple fact is how many irish people are working over here, or collect SW over here and frauding the UK for SW too? ... sure theres some. Not a hefty percentage.

I heard last year there was close to 10,000 eastern european nationals failing to sign-on during the ash cloud period. We've all heard the stories. Eastern european people fly in on sign-on days and fly back out.

To me, this whole "non dutch speaking" is just official BS. Unofficially, they want to tackle people abusing their SW system. After all, most of the polish frauding our SW system can barely speak a lick of english.

In fairness you didn't really answer what I was asking regarding the work thing:)

Do you have official links to the figures?

wild_cat

LighterGuy wrote: »

After all, most of the polish frauding our SW system can barely speak a lick of english.

I've never had to deal with the social welfare crowd myself but from what my friends tell me its pretty hard to get your point across to them even when you speak English. So.. I doubt your "lick of English" line is true... they'd never be able to get the claim processed properly.

LighterGuy

OPENROAD wrote: »

In fairness you didn't really answer what I was asking regarding the work thing:)

Do you have official links to the figures?

google is your friend:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ash-cloud-crisis-exposes-welfare-tourists-2245558.html

in that aritcle is says it dropped by 3,500. But I also read another article saying how the figure is much higher than first reported. Also, there was another article which, well was common sense, saying how people were signing on for other people.

Like a guy i know. He spent 6 months in Brazil last year. But yet he was "officially" signing on, each month, for those 6 months. And magically his SW money was being tranferred through Western Union to Brazil :pac:

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

google is your friend:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ash-cloud-crisis-exposes-welfare-tourists-2245558.html

in that aritcle is says it dropped by 3,500. But I also read another article saying how the figure is much higher than first reported. Also, there was another article which, well was common sense, saying how people were signing on for other people.

Like a guy i know. He spent 6 months in Brazil last year. But yet he was "officially" signing on, each month, for those 6 months. And magically his SW money was being tranferred through Western Union to Brazil :pac:

With regards if a person is out of work for three months, what do you think should happen?

Cill Dara Abu

Where the hell are all these Poles coming from?

There must be nobody left in Poland if there all over Europe

LighterGuy

wild_cat wrote: »

I've never had to deal with the social welfare crowd myself but from what my friends tell me its pretty hard to get your point across to them even when you speak English. So.. I doubt your "lick of English" line is true... they'd never be able to get the claim processed properly.

well,
i had a bunch of polish lads working on the house for the last week. A bunch of them. Only 1 had passing english. Last friday I asked one of them "which one is the plummer?" he turned around the semi-decent english guy and said "plummer?" with his hands in the air clearly saying "what does plummer mean in polish" - ... wanna know something really funny. He was the plummer.

Cill Dara Abu

LighterGuy wrote: »

well,
i had a bunch of polish lads working on the house for the last week. A bunch of them. Only 1 had passing english. Last friday I asked one of them "which one is the plummer?" he turned around the semi-decent english guy and said "plummer?" with his hands in the air clearly saying "what does plummer mean in polish" - ... wanna know something really funny. He was the plummer.

What does Plummer mean in English???

Oh you mean Plumber :pac:

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

well,
i had a bunch of polish lads working on the house for the last week. A bunch of them. Only 1 had passing english. Last friday I asked one of them "which one is the plummer?" he turned around the semi-decent english guy and said "plummer?" with his hands in the air clearly saying "what does plummer mean in polish" - ... wanna know something really funny. He was the plummer.

I assume you are happy so far with the work though?

LighterGuy

OPENROAD wrote: »

With regards if a person is out of work for three months, what do you think should happen?

Haha, ah openroad, totally ignoring my "welfare tourists" link. Some how I think you were hoping I wouldnt be able to provide an article so you could blast it to shreads.

But as for 3 months? IF you were reading my original post (big if) you would see I said 3 months is too extreme. You'd be hurting more genuine people than fraudsters. It is my opinion that this whole "non speaking dutch" is just trying to weed out the SW fraud. But a year sounds fair. You have to accept the possibilty that if someone is living in a country for a year, hasnt worked, STILL cant speak any of the local lingo ... that theres a good chance they are frauding.

Lets be honest, this law/rule will never come into exsistence. But it shows that the Dutch dont like whats going down with eastern europeans.

7sr2z3fely84g5

LighterGuy wrote: »

well,
i had a bunch of polish lads working on the house for the last week. A bunch of them. Only 1 had passing english. Last friday I asked one of them "which one is the plummer?" he turned around the semi-decent english guy and said "plummer?" with his hands in the air clearly saying "what does plummer mean in polish" - ... wanna know something really funny. He was the plummer.

Isnt that the loophole in the law,you can't be outside the country for more than two years to claim,so if live in country for the two years,could you legally claim?...

Welfare fraud spreaded to the prsi cards,being sold or passed on whilst person was in prison or abroad- http://www.independent.ie/national-news/jail-scam-prisoners-claiming-welfare-while-behind-bars-2801166.html

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

Haha, ah openroad, totally ignoring my "welfare tourists" link. Some how I think you were hoping I wouldnt be able to provide an article so you could blast it to shreads.

But as for 3 months? IF you were reading my original post (big if) you would see I said 3 months is too extreme. You'd be hurting more genuine people than fraudsters. It is my opinion that this whole "non speaking dutch" is just trying to weed out the SW fraud. But a year sounds fair. You have to accept the possibilty that if someone is living in a country for a year, hasnt worked, STILL cant speak any of the local lingo ... that theres a good chance they are frauding.

Lets be honest, this law/rule will never come into exsistence. But it shows that the Dutch dont like whats going down with eastern europeans.

No I will answer you the article lists a figure and states that the appropriate department will look into it so yes if it is found that indeed they are tourist welfare collectors, then of course appropriate action should be taken, don't think you would find anyone saying otherwise.

Regards the how long out of work, whether it be three months or one year the same rules will have to apply everywhere in the EU to everyone irrespective of nationality or close links to a country i.e. the Irish in the UK.

As you say though, the rule is unlikely to come into place at this time

ahal

It might also be the case that many Polish people are paying tax here to support Irish people who don't want to work. Just saying ...

LighterGuy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Regards the how long out of work, whether it be three months or one year the same rules will have to apply everywhere in the EU to everyone irrespective of nationality or close links to a country i.e. the Irish in the UK

well ... as you said before, how could the same rule apply?
after all, this is about non-nationals not speaking the native language. Dutch in this case. Ireland and the UK ... we speak english

OPENROAD

LighterGuy wrote: »

well ... as you said before, how could the same rule apply?
after all, this is about non-nationals not speaking the native language. Dutch in this case. Ireland and the UK ... we speak english

Fair enough , it is a slight deviation from the OP, so to clarify as long as the person can speak the native language, no problem with them claiming welfare even after a year out of work?

Pompey Magnus

opinion guy wrote: »

How about we just kick out all the racists from all over Europe and give them their own country ? THat'll work won't it ?


Some of you seem to have real problems understanding the basic functioning of the EU

We could also set up an seperate "utopian" state with fully open borders which allows anyone who wishes to enter and stay as long if they like (actually bothering to find work or integrate with the native population being completely optional for any would be immigrant), perhaps even set up regular direct flights to and from Lagos.

It would be interesting to compare how the two economies and societies are coping after a few years...

OPENROAD

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

We could also set up an seperate "utopian" state with fully open borders which allows anyone who wishes to enter and stay as long if they like (actually bothering to find work or integrate with the native population being completely optional for any would be immigrant), perhaps even set up regular direct flights to and from Lagos.

It would be interesting to compare how the two economies and societies are coping after a few years...

Well we have open borders within the EU, so you have that already

LighterGuy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Fair enough , it is a slight deviation from the OP, so to clarify as long as the person can speak the native language, no problem with them claiming welfare even after a year out of work?

well, a few things,

1, had you pegged 20 mins ago You're not debating. To ask question after question until i stumble so you appear "correct" ... sadly for you I got the answers

2, you're twisting and not very good at it.

3, to "debate" what you just said
its funny, before recession we had this thing where if anyone was on the SW for a long period of time they'd get thrown off. And they were nationals.
So in essence you are pretty much saying its ok for someone to stay for as long as they want on the SW?

pragmatic1

opinion guy wrote: »

The Dutch should allow it because that is what they signed up to allow it. Same as everyone else. Same rules that let lots of Irish go find work in Germany in the 80's.

Yeah to find work. Not draw the dole in Germany because its more than they would get at home.

pragmatic1

As usual the Dutch are years ahead of the game.